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Re: [mythsoc] Re: Catholicism and Lord of the Rings

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  • David Emerson
    ... I ve always wondered -- was Beren really dead? Or was he merely so close to death that no one around could tell the difference? Was he really
    Message 1 of 51 , Jun 12, 2009
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      >>> Beren's case is no more "reincarnation" than was Lazarus's, or
      >>> Christ's. It is rather _resurrection_, a return of the soul (and
      >>> thus of life) to its own former body.
      >>
      >> Merlin's later comment on this reminded me that I'd wanted to say I
      >> think this is a real insight, and it's a point I've not seen before.
      >> Has anyone else developed this line of thought?
      >>
      >
      >I agree, John. I think it is something I've always just assumed -- that
      >is that Beren is returned to his former body, not that he is given a new
      >one.

      I've always wondered -- was Beren really dead? Or was he merely so close to death that no one around could tell the difference? Was he really resurrected, or simply revived?

      If the Gift of Men is beyond even the Valar's understanding, it doesn't make sense that Mandos would have the power to give Beren back his life, no matter how persuasively Luthien sang.

      emerdavid

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    • David Emerson
      Luthien: Alas! My beloved has perished! I must go to the Halls of Mandos to beg -- Beren: I m not dead yet. Luthien: Shh! To beg Mandos to bring him
      Message 51 of 51 , Jun 15, 2009
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        Luthien: Alas! My beloved has perished! I must go to the Halls of Mandos to beg --
        Beren: I'm not dead yet.
        Luthien: Shh! To beg Mandos to bring him back --
        Beren: I don't want to go on the cart.
        Luthien: Shut up! I'm having a dramatic moment here.
        Beren: I feel happy...
        Luthien: (Nods to nearest elf with big club)
        Big Club: Thud.
        Luthien: Okay, I'm off to the Halls of Mandos. See ya. (Falls down)


        -----Original Message-----
        >From: John Davis <john@...>
        >Sent: Jun 15, 2009 3:48 AM
        >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Catholicism and Lord of the Rings
        >
        >Perhaps he was just mostly dead.
        >
        >John
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: scribbler@...
        > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 4:40 PM
        > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Catholicism and Lord of the Rings
        >
        > > I've always wondered -- was Beren really dead? Or was he merely so close
        > > to death that no one around could tell the difference? Was he really
        > > resurrected, or simply revived?
        > >
        > > If the Gift of Men is beyond even the Valar's understanding, it doesn't
        > > make sense that Mandos would have the power to give Beren back his life,
        > > no matter how persuasively Luthien sang.
        > >
        > > emerdavid
        >
        > Well, it would seem incongruous that Mandos himself would not be able to
        > distinguish between a "nearly dead" mortal soul and a "dead" one. Mandos
        > is made anxious about the situation because Beren WILL NOT GO ON the way
        > he is supposed to.
        >
        > It seems to me, that Beren's soul held onto the world to an unexpected
        > degree, instead of passing out of the world. If he had passed out of the
        > world, then I agree, Luthien's singing would have been tragic in that it
        > would be to no point -- Beren would not be *there* to be returned. But
        > that's not what Tolkien sets as the situation. He has Beren "hanging
        > around" unexpectedly.
        >
        > I say - Beren was dead, but not "departed". A unique situation that the
        > Valar could actually address.

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