Re: [mythsoc] Re: Catholicism and Lord of the Rings
> On Jun 10, 2009, at 10:41 AM, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:I agree, John. I think it is something I've always just assumed -- that
>> Beren's case is no more "reincarnation" than was Lazarus's, or
>> Christ's. It is rather _resurrection_, a return of the soul (and
>> thus of life) to its own former body.
> Merlin's later comment on this reminded me that I'd wanted to say I
> think this is a real insight, and it's a point I've not seen before.
> Has anyone else developed this line of thought?
> --John R.
is that Beren is returned to his former body, not that he is given a new
one. Perhaps more for what is NOT said than what is. If he'd been given
a new body, one would expect that it would have two hands. Which strikes
me as something that would have earned Beren another nickname. Instead,
though I don't recall that it is explicitly stated, there is the
implication that after their return, Beren is still one-handed. Which
points to it being his former body.
- Luthien: Alas! My beloved has perished! I must go to the Halls of Mandos to beg --
Beren: I'm not dead yet.
Luthien: Shh! To beg Mandos to bring him back --
Beren: I don't want to go on the cart.
Luthien: Shut up! I'm having a dramatic moment here.
Beren: I feel happy...
Luthien: (Nods to nearest elf with big club)
Big Club: Thud.
Luthien: Okay, I'm off to the Halls of Mandos. See ya. (Falls down)
>From: John Davis <john@...>________________________________________
>Sent: Jun 15, 2009 3:48 AM
>Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Catholicism and Lord of the Rings
>Perhaps he was just mostly dead.
> ----- Original Message -----
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> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 4:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Catholicism and Lord of the Rings
> > I've always wondered -- was Beren really dead? Or was he merely so close
> > to death that no one around could tell the difference? Was he really
> > resurrected, or simply revived?
> > If the Gift of Men is beyond even the Valar's understanding, it doesn't
> > make sense that Mandos would have the power to give Beren back his life,
> > no matter how persuasively Luthien sang.
> > emerdavid
> Well, it would seem incongruous that Mandos himself would not be able to
> distinguish between a "nearly dead" mortal soul and a "dead" one. Mandos
> is made anxious about the situation because Beren WILL NOT GO ON the way
> he is supposed to.
> It seems to me, that Beren's soul held onto the world to an unexpected
> degree, instead of passing out of the world. If he had passed out of the
> world, then I agree, Luthien's singing would have been tragic in that it
> would be to no point -- Beren would not be *there* to be returned. But
> that's not what Tolkien sets as the situation. He has Beren "hanging
> around" unexpectedly.
> I say - Beren was dead, but not "departed". A unique situation that the
> Valar could actually address.
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