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Re: [mythsoc] Re: Catholicism and Lord of the Rings

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  • scribbler@scribblerworks.us
    ... I agree, John. I think it is something I ve always just assumed -- that is that Beren is returned to his former body, not that he is given a new one.
    Message 1 of 51 , Jun 12, 2009
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      > On Jun 10, 2009, at 10:41 AM, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:
      >> Beren's case is no more "reincarnation" than was Lazarus's, or
      >> Christ's. It is rather _resurrection_, a return of the soul (and
      >> thus of life) to its own former body.
      >
      > Merlin's later comment on this reminded me that I'd wanted to say I
      > think this is a real insight, and it's a point I've not seen before.
      > Has anyone else developed this line of thought?
      >
      > --John R.
      >

      I agree, John. I think it is something I've always just assumed -- that
      is that Beren is returned to his former body, not that he is given a new
      one. Perhaps more for what is NOT said than what is. If he'd been given
      a new body, one would expect that it would have two hands. Which strikes
      me as something that would have earned Beren another nickname. Instead,
      though I don't recall that it is explicitly stated, there is the
      implication that after their return, Beren is still one-handed. Which
      points to it being his former body.
    • David Emerson
      Luthien: Alas! My beloved has perished! I must go to the Halls of Mandos to beg -- Beren: I m not dead yet. Luthien: Shh! To beg Mandos to bring him
      Message 51 of 51 , Jun 15, 2009
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        Luthien: Alas! My beloved has perished! I must go to the Halls of Mandos to beg --
        Beren: I'm not dead yet.
        Luthien: Shh! To beg Mandos to bring him back --
        Beren: I don't want to go on the cart.
        Luthien: Shut up! I'm having a dramatic moment here.
        Beren: I feel happy...
        Luthien: (Nods to nearest elf with big club)
        Big Club: Thud.
        Luthien: Okay, I'm off to the Halls of Mandos. See ya. (Falls down)


        -----Original Message-----
        >From: John Davis <john@...>
        >Sent: Jun 15, 2009 3:48 AM
        >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Catholicism and Lord of the Rings
        >
        >Perhaps he was just mostly dead.
        >
        >John
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: scribbler@...
        > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 4:40 PM
        > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Catholicism and Lord of the Rings
        >
        > > I've always wondered -- was Beren really dead? Or was he merely so close
        > > to death that no one around could tell the difference? Was he really
        > > resurrected, or simply revived?
        > >
        > > If the Gift of Men is beyond even the Valar's understanding, it doesn't
        > > make sense that Mandos would have the power to give Beren back his life,
        > > no matter how persuasively Luthien sang.
        > >
        > > emerdavid
        >
        > Well, it would seem incongruous that Mandos himself would not be able to
        > distinguish between a "nearly dead" mortal soul and a "dead" one. Mandos
        > is made anxious about the situation because Beren WILL NOT GO ON the way
        > he is supposed to.
        >
        > It seems to me, that Beren's soul held onto the world to an unexpected
        > degree, instead of passing out of the world. If he had passed out of the
        > world, then I agree, Luthien's singing would have been tragic in that it
        > would be to no point -- Beren would not be *there* to be returned. But
        > that's not what Tolkien sets as the situation. He has Beren "hanging
        > around" unexpectedly.
        >
        > I say - Beren was dead, but not "departed". A unique situation that the
        > Valar could actually address.

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