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RE: [mythsoc] Re: Catholicism and Lord of the Rings

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  • Larry Swain
    I don t know of any scholarship, but it seems clear to me in reading the HoME material, and the canonical works that Tolkien is presenting a Catholic
    Message 1 of 51 , Jun 5, 2009
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      I don't know of any scholarship, but it seems clear to me in reading the
      HoME material, and the "canonical" works that Tolkien is presenting a
      Catholic worldview and world....but a Catholicism as mediated through
      late antique and medieval literatures--thus LoTR and TH have more in
      common with Genesis A and B and Beowulf and the Exodus poem etc than with
      the Council of Trent, Cardinal Newman, or Vatican II.  The source of some
      "theological" problems seems to me to stem from this as well since those
      narrative sources contain some of the same problems and difficulties
      scholars have found in LoTR.  Just my half pence.

      Larry Swain


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Croft, Janet B."
      To: "mythsoc@yahoogroups.com"
      Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: Catholicism and Lord of the Rings
      Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 15:04:20 -0500



      Is there any scholarship using the drafts for LOTR to examine this
      question? Do the drafts show Tolkien making revisions that reflect
      his Catholicism? Or did Tolkien mean merely that he became aware as
      he revised that the text expressed his Catholicism, and that he kept
      what he'd already written?

      -Merlin DeTardo

      Sounds like a area where we need some scholarship, hint hint.

      Janet Brennan Croft
      Associate Professor
      Head of Access Services
      University of Oklahoma Libraries
      Bizzell 104NW
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      jbcroft@... <mailto:jbcroft@...>
      http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/C/Janet.B.Croft-1/
      http://libraries.ou.edu/
      Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html
      Editor of Oklahoma Librarian
      http://www.oklibs.org/oklibrarian/current/index.html
      "Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the rising
      ape meets the falling angel." -Terry Pratchett

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    • David Emerson
      Luthien: Alas! My beloved has perished! I must go to the Halls of Mandos to beg -- Beren: I m not dead yet. Luthien: Shh! To beg Mandos to bring him
      Message 51 of 51 , Jun 15, 2009
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        Luthien: Alas! My beloved has perished! I must go to the Halls of Mandos to beg --
        Beren: I'm not dead yet.
        Luthien: Shh! To beg Mandos to bring him back --
        Beren: I don't want to go on the cart.
        Luthien: Shut up! I'm having a dramatic moment here.
        Beren: I feel happy...
        Luthien: (Nods to nearest elf with big club)
        Big Club: Thud.
        Luthien: Okay, I'm off to the Halls of Mandos. See ya. (Falls down)


        -----Original Message-----
        >From: John Davis <john@...>
        >Sent: Jun 15, 2009 3:48 AM
        >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Catholicism and Lord of the Rings
        >
        >Perhaps he was just mostly dead.
        >
        >John
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: scribbler@...
        > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 4:40 PM
        > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Catholicism and Lord of the Rings
        >
        > > I've always wondered -- was Beren really dead? Or was he merely so close
        > > to death that no one around could tell the difference? Was he really
        > > resurrected, or simply revived?
        > >
        > > If the Gift of Men is beyond even the Valar's understanding, it doesn't
        > > make sense that Mandos would have the power to give Beren back his life,
        > > no matter how persuasively Luthien sang.
        > >
        > > emerdavid
        >
        > Well, it would seem incongruous that Mandos himself would not be able to
        > distinguish between a "nearly dead" mortal soul and a "dead" one. Mandos
        > is made anxious about the situation because Beren WILL NOT GO ON the way
        > he is supposed to.
        >
        > It seems to me, that Beren's soul held onto the world to an unexpected
        > degree, instead of passing out of the world. If he had passed out of the
        > world, then I agree, Luthien's singing would have been tragic in that it
        > would be to no point -- Beren would not be *there* to be returned. But
        > that's not what Tolkien sets as the situation. He has Beren "hanging
        > around" unexpectedly.
        >
        > I say - Beren was dead, but not "departed". A unique situation that the
        > Valar could actually address.

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