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Re: Tolkien, women, gender and brain-picking

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  • Merlin DeTardo
    ... And Kristine Larsen treats the evolution of Varda specifically in (V)Arda Marred: The Evolution of the Queen of the Stars in Tolkien s Legendarium , which
    Message 1 of 18 , May 11, 2009
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      ---"Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:
      >>Elizabeth Whittingham has an excellent discussion of this subject, and how the depiction of the Valier and other female spirits changed over the history of Tolkien's writing of his mythology in her _The Evolution of Tolkien's Mythology_. Sorry I don't have the book here so I can't give specific page citations.


      And Kristine Larsen treats the evolution of Varda specifically in "(V)Arda Marred: The Evolution of the Queen of the Stars in Tolkien's Legendarium", which she posted online here:

      http://www.physics.ccsu.edu/larsen/varda.html

      -Merlin DeTardo
    • Edith Crowe
      Doug, I agree--I have Whittingham s book next to me even as we speak, ready to copy the relevant pages (92-98). She also has a bit on pp. 19-21 noting the very
      Message 2 of 18 , May 11, 2009
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        Doug, I agree--I have Whittingham's book next to me even as we speak, ready
        to copy the relevant pages (92-98). She also has a bit on pp. 19-21 noting
        the very male-oriented education and upbringing Tolkien had, especially
        after his mother's death.

        On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Doug Kane <dougkane@...>wrote:

        >
        >
        >
        > Joseph Furolo wrote:
        >
        > > For me, the female Valar and other immortals are the most positive
        > treatment of the feminine
        >
        > Elizabeth Whittingham has an excellent discussion of this subject, and how
        > the depiction of the Valier and other female spirits changed over the
        > history of Tolkien's writing of his mythology in her _The Evolution of
        > Tolkien's Mythology_. Sorry I don't have the book here so I can't give
        > specific page citations.
        >
        > Doug
        >
        >
        >



        --
        Edith Crowe, Corresponding Secretary
        The Mythopoeic Society
        http://www.mythsoc.org | correspondence@...


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Edith Crowe
        Joseph, I hope so. As I understand it, this is institute is designed for high school teachers of Tolkien, so I expect they will be most interested in LOTR.
        Message 3 of 18 , May 11, 2009
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          Joseph, I hope so. As I understand it, this is institute is designed for
          high school teachers of Tolkien, so I expect they will be most interested in
          LOTR. However, it's pretty limiting to talk about women/gender issues and
          limit oneself only to LOTR. I'm hoping some of their students will be up for
          some extra credit assignments that will get them into other parts of the
          legendarium--especiallywhen they relate to characters or situations in LOTR
          (Galadriel's wild youth; why Arwen Warrior Princess is less of a stretch
          when you know more about her female ancestry, etc.).

          On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 2:59 AM, Joseph Furolo <joseph.f@...>wrote:

          > Hi Edith
          >
          > Will you be covering any of these dimensions of Tolkien's writing in
          > your presentation? I know you are to focus on LOTR but of course
          > Elbereth and the legendarium are part of the imagination of Middle
          > Earth and some note of this broader backdrop perhaps could be noted?.
          >
          > --
          > Edith Crowe, Corresponding Secretary
          > The Mythopoeic Society
          > http://www.mythsoc.org | correspondence@...
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Merlin DeTardo
          ... Just an aside: that essay was criticized in two different papers delivered last month at the sixth annual Tolkien conference at the University of Vermont;
          Message 4 of 18 , May 16, 2009
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            ---"Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...> wrote:
            > As a corrective, consider this one:
            > Timmons, Daniel. "Hobbit Sex and Sensuality in The Lord of the Rings." Mythlore 23.3 (#89) (2001): 70-79.
            > Refutes critics who see no evidence of mature sexuality in Tolkien's Middle-earth by examining the distinction between sex and sensuality, and by describing depictions of romantic and married love in contrast to matelessness.

            Just an aside: that essay was criticized in two different papers delivered last month at the sixth annual Tolkien conference at the University of Vermont; you can read a report on that conference here:

            http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=183401

            -Merlin DeTardo
          • David Bratman
            ... I may have missed something, but I could only see one discussion of Timmons in that report. It is perilous to judge any paper by a second-hand report
            Message 5 of 18 , May 16, 2009
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              Merlin DeTardo <emptyD@...> wrote:

              >---"Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...> wrote:
              >> As a corrective, consider this one:
              >> Timmons, Daniel. "Hobbit Sex and Sensuality in The Lord of the Rings." Mythlore 23.3 (#89) (2001):
              >>70-79.
              >> Refutes critics who see no evidence of mature sexuality in Tolkien's Middle-earth by examining the
              >>distinction between sex and sensuality, and by describing depictions of romantic and married love in
              >>contrast to matelessness.
              >
              >Just an aside: that essay was criticized in two different papers delivered last month at the sixth
              >annual Tolkien conference at the University of Vermont; you can read a report on that conference here:
              >
              >http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=183401

              I may have missed something, but I could only see one discussion of Timmons in that report. It is perilous to judge any paper by a second-hand report summary by someone taking notes, but if that is a fair summary of Vaccaro's arguments, Timmons stands unimpaired.

              In fact, the comment quoted that "Vaccaro reported with approval," the one beginning, "Sam's love for Frodo and for Rosie are two different kinds of loveā€¦ I don't think Sam imagined that the one would affect the other," actually paraphrases one of Timmons' most important points, on p. 78: "No depicted or implied rivalry exists between Frodo and Rose for the love of Sam. Each share a 'spiritual' bond, sensual in certain respects, but of a different order and distinctive nature." (There's more on this, mostly further up the page.)

              Lastly, somebody will have to tell me what's at all homophobic about Timmons' paper. Is it that he brushes aside critics who "imagined a submerged homoeroticism between Tolkien and Lewis (or Sam and Frodo)"?
            • Merlin DeTardo
              ... Perilous indeed! You missed nothing, David: my report mentions Timmons only once. His essay also came up briefly in Chance s paper, but my notes include no
              Message 6 of 18 , May 16, 2009
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                ---David Bratman <dbratman@...> wrote:
                > I may have missed something, but I could only see one discussion of Timmons in that report. It is perilous to judge any paper by a second-hand report summary by someone taking notes, but if that is a fair summary of Vaccaro's arguments, Timmons stands unimpaired.

                Perilous indeed! You missed nothing, David: my report mentions Timmons only once. His essay also came up briefly in Chance's paper, but my notes include no details, except that her comments echoed Vaccaro's. That I haven't read Timmons' study certainly doesn't help the report. However, since Chance's piece is slated for publication later this year, it should soon be possible to consider her argument more closely.

                -Merlin DeTardo
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