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Tolkien, women, gender and brain-picking

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  • Edith Crowe
    I m one of the presenters at the NEH-funded institute J. R. R. Tolkien s The Lord of the Rings: The Real and the Imagined Middle Ages at UT-Commerce this
    Message 1 of 18 , May 7, 2009
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      I'm one of the presenters at the NEH-funded institute "J. R. R. Tolkien's
      The Lord of the Rings: The Real and the Imagined Middle Ages" at UT-Commerce
      this summer. I'm supposed to be the gender expert, although where they got
      that notion I have no idea. But hey, who turns down a free trip to Commerce,
      Texas in August? (See
      http://community.livejournal.com/lotr_middleages/886.html if you wish, but
      please be advised I did not write the blurb attached to my name, and its
      hyperbole makes me by turns appalled and hysterical.)

      I hereby humbly request that fellow scholars and aficionados help me out by
      answering the following:
      What do you think are the best and worst things written on the topic of
      Tolkien and women/gender/the feminine, etc. in Tolkien's work (and
      preferably why)? In addition (or instead of) what are the most widely held
      wrong-headed notions about the previous topics held by scholars or the
      general public?

      I have some notions of my own but this group is more widely read and
      variously opinionated than my head by itself. I just got a first deadline of
      June 1 for handouts to be copied, so I am suddenly more highly motivated
      than heretofore, and your assistance will be greatly appreciated.
      Replies can be sent to me at correspondence@... or shared with the
      list if you like.
      --
      Edith Crowe, Corresponding Secretary
      The Mythopoeic Society
      http://www.mythsoc.org | correspondence@...


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • scribbler@scribblerworks.us
      Interesting topic, Edith! Most certainly, I d say that the worst misunderstanding of Tolkien s attitude toward women is the assumption that he condescends -
      Message 2 of 18 , May 7, 2009
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        Interesting topic, Edith!

        Most certainly, I'd say that the worst misunderstanding of Tolkien's
        attitude toward women is the assumption that he condescends - especially
        when the interpretation is based solely on reading LOTR. Unless the
        reader pays close attention, he can easily miss the indications that
        Tolkien's women are generally strong and not "typical passive heroines"
        (that is, are they paying attention to Galadriel's history, the tale of
        Luthien, etc.).

        I think the contraints of the type of story he was telling in LOTR, and
        the character selection ended up making the novel atypical of JRRT's work
        in general, especially as it relates to female characters. Too many few
        Arwen as the *standard* of Tolkien heroines, where she is actually pretty
        much the exception (even Finduilas, who is rather passive, is a bit more
        active than Arwen).

        Huh. That would be a different tack to take: Eowyn is the standard of a
        Tolkien heroine, not the exception (Luthien, Ildis, Elwing, Galadriel --
        all "take action" types).


        > I'm one of the presenters at the NEH-funded institute "J. R. R. Tolkien's
        > The Lord of the Rings: The Real and the Imagined Middle Ages" at
        > UT-Commerce
        > this summer. I'm supposed to be the gender expert, although where they got
        > that notion I have no idea. But hey, who turns down a free trip to
        > Commerce,
        > Texas in August? (See
        > http://community.livejournal.com/lotr_middleages/886.html if you wish, but
        > please be advised I did not write the blurb attached to my name, and its
        > hyperbole makes me by turns appalled and hysterical.)
        >
        > I hereby humbly request that fellow scholars and aficionados help me out
        > by
        > answering the following:
        > What do you think are the best and worst things written on the topic of
        > Tolkien and women/gender/the feminine, etc. in Tolkien's work (and
        > preferably why)? In addition (or instead of) what are the most widely held
        > wrong-headed notions about the previous topics held by scholars or the
        > general public?
        >
        > I have some notions of my own but this group is more widely read and
        > variously opinionated than my head by itself. I just got a first deadline
        > of
        > June 1 for handouts to be copied, so I am suddenly more highly motivated
        > than heretofore, and your assistance will be greatly appreciated.
        > Replies can be sent to me at correspondence@... or shared with the
        > list if you like.
        > --
        > Edith Crowe, Corresponding Secretary
        > The Mythopoeic Society
        > http://www.mythsoc.org | correspondence@...
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
      • Cristina A. Montes
        I agree. I e-mailed Edith more thoughts on this matter.
        Message 3 of 18 , May 8, 2009
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          I agree. I e-mailed Edith more thoughts on this matter.

          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, scribbler@... wrote:
          >
          > Interesting topic, Edith!
          >
          > Most certainly, I'd say that the worst misunderstanding of Tolkien's
          > attitude toward women is the assumption that he condescends - especially
          > when the interpretation is based solely on reading LOTR. Unless the
          > reader pays close attention, he can easily miss the indications that
          > Tolkien's women are generally strong and not "typical passive heroines"
          > (that is, are they paying attention to Galadriel's history, the tale of
          > Luthien, etc.).
          >
          > I think the contraints of the type of story he was telling in LOTR, and
          > the character selection ended up making the novel atypical of JRRT's work
          > in general, especially as it relates to female characters. Too many few
          > Arwen as the *standard* of Tolkien heroines, where she is actually pretty
          > much the exception (even Finduilas, who is rather passive, is a bit more
          > active than Arwen).
          >
          > Huh. That would be a different tack to take: Eowyn is the standard of a
          > Tolkien heroine, not the exception (Luthien, Ildis, Elwing, Galadriel --
          > all "take action" types).
          >
          >
          > > I'm one of the presenters at the NEH-funded institute "J. R. R. Tolkien's
          > > The Lord of the Rings: The Real and the Imagined Middle Ages" at
          > > UT-Commerce
          > > this summer. I'm supposed to be the gender expert, although where they got
          > > that notion I have no idea. But hey, who turns down a free trip to
          > > Commerce,
          > > Texas in August? (See
          > > http://community.livejournal.com/lotr_middleages/886.html if you wish, but
          > > please be advised I did not write the blurb attached to my name, and its
          > > hyperbole makes me by turns appalled and hysterical.)
          > >
          > > I hereby humbly request that fellow scholars and aficionados help me out
          > > by
          > > answering the following:
          > > What do you think are the best and worst things written on the topic of
          > > Tolkien and women/gender/the feminine, etc. in Tolkien's work (and
          > > preferably why)? In addition (or instead of) what are the most widely held
          > > wrong-headed notions about the previous topics held by scholars or the
          > > general public?
          > >
          > > I have some notions of my own but this group is more widely read and
          > > variously opinionated than my head by itself. I just got a first deadline
          > > of
          > > June 1 for handouts to be copied, so I am suddenly more highly motivated
          > > than heretofore, and your assistance will be greatly appreciated.
          > > Replies can be sent to me at correspondence@... or shared with the
          > > list if you like.
          > > --
          > > Edith Crowe, Corresponding Secretary
          > > The Mythopoeic Society
          > > http://www.mythsoc.org | correspondence@...
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Cristina A. Montes
          An essay on women in LOTR: http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/smiesel_ladiesring_jan05.asp
          Message 4 of 18 , May 8, 2009
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            An essay on women in LOTR:

            http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/smiesel_ladiesring_jan05.asp

            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, scribbler@... wrote:
            >
            > Interesting topic, Edith!
            >
            > Most certainly, I'd say that the worst misunderstanding of Tolkien's
            > attitude toward women is the assumption that he condescends - especially
            > when the interpretation is based solely on reading LOTR. Unless the
            > reader pays close attention, he can easily miss the indications that
            > Tolkien's women are generally strong and not "typical passive heroines"
            > (that is, are they paying attention to Galadriel's history, the tale of
            > Luthien, etc.).
            >
            > I think the contraints of the type of story he was telling in LOTR, and
            > the character selection ended up making the novel atypical of JRRT's work
            > in general, especially as it relates to female characters. Too many few
            > Arwen as the *standard* of Tolkien heroines, where she is actually pretty
            > much the exception (even Finduilas, who is rather passive, is a bit more
            > active than Arwen).
            >
            > Huh. That would be a different tack to take: Eowyn is the standard of a
            > Tolkien heroine, not the exception (Luthien, Ildis, Elwing, Galadriel --
            > all "take action" types).
            >
            >
            > > I'm one of the presenters at the NEH-funded institute "J. R. R. Tolkien's
            > > The Lord of the Rings: The Real and the Imagined Middle Ages" at
            > > UT-Commerce
            > > this summer. I'm supposed to be the gender expert, although where they got
            > > that notion I have no idea. But hey, who turns down a free trip to
            > > Commerce,
            > > Texas in August? (See
            > > http://community.livejournal.com/lotr_middleages/886.html if you wish, but
            > > please be advised I did not write the blurb attached to my name, and its
            > > hyperbole makes me by turns appalled and hysterical.)
            > >
            > > I hereby humbly request that fellow scholars and aficionados help me out
            > > by
            > > answering the following:
            > > What do you think are the best and worst things written on the topic of
            > > Tolkien and women/gender/the feminine, etc. in Tolkien's work (and
            > > preferably why)? In addition (or instead of) what are the most widely held
            > > wrong-headed notions about the previous topics held by scholars or the
            > > general public?
            > >
            > > I have some notions of my own but this group is more widely read and
            > > variously opinionated than my head by itself. I just got a first deadline
            > > of
            > > June 1 for handouts to be copied, so I am suddenly more highly motivated
            > > than heretofore, and your assistance will be greatly appreciated.
            > > Replies can be sent to me at correspondence@... or shared with the
            > > list if you like.
            > > --
            > > Edith Crowe, Corresponding Secretary
            > > The Mythopoeic Society
            > > http://www.mythsoc.org | correspondence@...
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Croft, Janet B.
            I’m very intrigued by the idea that Éowyn is more typical of Tolkien’s women in general than the other women in LotR – that has potential to be a
            Message 5 of 18 , May 8, 2009
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              I�m very intrigued by the idea that �owyn is more typical of Tolkien�s women in general than the other women in LotR � that has potential to be a fantastic �hook� and organizing principle.

              I'm sure many here would anti-recommend (dis-recommend?) Fredrick and McBride's _Women Among the Inklings,_ though you may want to assign a reading as an example of somewhat blinkered thinking on Tolkien and women! I seem to recall Catharine Stimpson�s _J.R.R. Tolkien_ was also pretty wrong-headed. And then there's the infamous

              Partridge, Brenda. "No Sex Please -- We're Hobbits: The Construction of Female Sexuality in the Lord of the Rings." J.R.R. Tolkien: This Far Land. Ed. Robert Giddings. London: Vision, 1983. 179-97. (I believe this is the one claiming the fight with Shelob symbolized female rape of Sam and Frodo�)

              As a corrective, consider this one:

              Timmons, Daniel. �Hobbit Sex and Sensuality in The Lord of the Rings.� Mythlore 23.3 (#89) (2001): 70-79.
              Refutes critics who see no evidence of mature sexuality in Tolkien�s Middle-earth by examining the distinction between sex and sensuality, and by describing depictions of romantic and married love in contrast to matelessness.

              And a couple of other anti:

              Doughan, David. �Tolkien, Sayers, Sex and Gender.� Mythlore 21.2 (#80) (1992): 356-359.
              Tolkien�s expressed �loathing� for Dorothy Sayers and her novels Gaudy Night and Busman�s Honeymoon is remarkable considering that Sayers is generally considered to belong to the same milieu as the Inklings. Possible reasons for this are the contrast between the orthodox Catholic Tolkien�s view of male sexuality as inherently sinful, requiring �great mortification,� and Sayers�s frankly hedonistic approach. Another reason may be Sayers�s depiction of an independent Oxford women�s college getting by successfully without men, and her representation of marriage as a source of intellectual frustration for creative women.

              Fredrick, Candice, and Sam McBride. �Battling the Woman Warrior: Females and Combat in Tolkien and Lewis.� Mythlore 25.3/4 (#97/98) (2007): 29-42.
              Examines women in combat in a number of Tolkien�s and Lewis�s works, finding that their portrayals have one thing in common: battles are ugly when women fight.


              On the other hand, these are some of the positive ones. I HIGHLY recommend the first three--very enlightening.

              Donovan, Leslie A. "The Valkyrie Reflex in J.R.R. Tolkien's the Lord of the Rings: Galadriel, Shelob, Eowyn, and Arwen." Tolkien the Medievalist. Ed. Jane Chance. London: Routledge, 2003. 106-32.

              Thum, Mareen. "Hidden in Plain View: Strategizing Unconventionality in Shakespeare's and Tolkien's Portraits of Women." Tolkien and Shakespeare: Essays on Shared Themes and Language. Ed. Janet Brennan Croft. Critical Explorations in Science Fiction and Fantasy #2. Jefferson NC: McFarland, 2007. 229-50.

              Rawls, Melanie. �The Feminine Principle in Tolkien.� Mythlore 10.4 (#38) (1984): 5-13.
              Explores the interaction of Masculine and Feminine principles (gender as opposed to sex) in Tolkien�s Middle-earth, showing how the balance of the principles within a character is an important factor in his or her place in the struggle of good and evil, evil resulting in many cases from an imbalance of these principles.

              Armstrong, Helen. �Good Guys, Bad Guys, Fantasy and Reality.� Mythlore 21.2 (#80) (1996): 247-252.
              Considers the nature of some of the stylized �evil� and �good� character types in Middle-earth, and their relationship to folklore and contemporary life. Considers the role of women, particularly as mothers and heroic figures. Relates these observations to the underlying conflict between longing for permanence and the recognition of inevitable change.

              Basso, Ann McCauley. �Fair Lady Goldberry, Daughter of the River.� Mythlore 27.1/2 (#103/104) (2008): 137-146.
              Examines Goldberry as an intermediary figure between noble or ethereal female characters like Galadriel and �owyn and everyday women like Rosie Cotton, and shows how her relationship with Tom provides Sam with a paradigm for the ideal marriage. Considers Goldberry an Eve-like figure.

              Fenwick, Mac. �Breastplates of Silk: Homeric Women in The Lord of the Rings.� Mythlore 21.3 (#96) (1996): 17-23, 50.
              Notes parallels between women characters in Homer�s Odyssey and Tolkien�s The Lord of the Rings, especially Circe, Calypso, and Galadriel. All assist the hero and give him gifts which allow him to defeat female monsters such as the Sirens and Shelob.

              Fife, Ernelle. �Wise Warriors in Tolkien, Lewis, and Rowling.� Mythlore 25.1/2 (#95/96) (2006): 147-162.
              Discusses the concept of the wise woman warrior, focusing primarily on �owyn, Orual, and Hermione Granger but bringing in other characters from the works of Tolkien, Lewis, and Rowling as well.

              Hopkins, Lisa. �Female Authority Figures in the Works of Tolkien, C.S. Lewis and Charles Williams.� Mythlore 21.2 (#80) (1996): 364-366.
              The powerful, learned woman is a figure of fear in the works of Williams, seen as transgressing her proper role. In Lewis, legitimate authority figures are male, illegitimate ones are female, and gender roles are strictly demarcated. Tolkien, however, not only creates powerful and heroic women, but also suggests that the combination of authority and femininity can be particularly potent and talismanic.

              Kane, Doug C. �Reconstructing Arda: Of F�anor and the Unchaining of Melkor.� Mythlore 27.1/2 (#103/104) (2008): 9-19.
              Discusses Tolkien�s Silmarillion and how it was constructed from the materials later published in the twelve-volume History of Middle-earth, in particular the version of �Of F�anor and the Unchaining of Melkor� in the published Silmarillion compared with the source material given in Morgoth�s Ring. The author finds intriguing patterns in what Christopher Tolkien used and did not use from the original material. (Particularly what was left out about some of the women, though see Jason Fisher's review of Kan'e book in ML 105/106 for a quibble on this point)

              Hatcher, Melissa McCrory. �Finding Woman�s Role in The Lord of the Rings.� Mythlore 25.3/4 (#97/98) (2007): 43-54.
              Offers an opposing viewpoint on the �taming� of the woman warrior in Tolkien, suggesting that �owyn�s rejection of the warrior�s life is a fulfillment of Tolkien�s theme of healing and rebirth rather than a subjection to a male partner.

              Johnson, Brent D. ��owyn�s Grief.� Mythlore 27.3/4 (#105/106)(2009): 117-127. (This issue is in the mail right now)
              Adds to the scholarly dialogue on Tolkien�s depiction of war-related mental trauma by examining �owyn not as an example of post-traumatic stress disorder, but as a character suffering from, and beginning to recover from, traumatic grief. Emphasizes the role of Faramir as counselor and healer. Johnson�s experience as a military chaplain gives added strength to his observations.

              Smith, Melissa. �At Home and Abroad: �owyn�s Two-fold Figuring as War Bride in The Lord of the Rings.� Mythlore 26.1/2 (#99/100) (2007): 161-172.
              A reading of �owyn as a war-bride, providing new insights into her relationships with both Aragorn and Faramir and into the challenges facing war-brides throughout history. Considers her as the left-behind war bride in her interactions with Aragorn, and as the war bride accompanying her husband to a new country with Faramir.


              And these, on the differing role of women in the Jackson movies:

              Thum, Mareen. "The "Sub-Subcreation" of Galadriel, Arwen and Eowyn: Women of Power in Tolkien's and Jackson's the Lord of the Rings." Tolkien on Film: Essays on Peter Jackson's the Lord of the Rings. Ed. Janet Brennan Croft. Altadena CA: The Mythopoeic Press, 2004. 231-56.

              Chance, Jane. "Tolkien's Women (and Men): The Films and the Book." Tolkien on Film: Essays on Peter Jackson's the Lord of the Rings. Ed. Janet Brennan Croft. Altadena CA: The Mythopoeic Press, 2004. 175-94.

              Gaydosik, Victoria. ""Crimes against the Book?" the Transformation of Tolkien's Arwen from Page to Screen and the Abandonment of the Psyche Archetype." Tolkien on Film: Essays on Peter Jackson's the Lord of the Rings. Ed. Janet Brennan Croft. Altadena CA: The Mythopoeic Press, 2004. 215-30.

              Akers-Jordan, Cathy. "Fairy Princess or Tragic Heroine? The Metamophosis of Arwen Undomiel in Peter Jackson's the Lord of the Rings Films." Tolkien on Film: Essays on Peter Jackson's the Lord of the Rings. Ed. Janet Brennan Croft. Altadena CA: The Mythopoeic Press, 2004. 195-214.


              And some I have in my bibliographic file, but I can't remember which side of the debate they fell on:

              Davies, Lin. ""My Hand Is Ungentle": �owyn and the Women of Middle-Earth." Amon Hen.195 (2005): 13-16.

              Green, William H. ""Where's Mama?" the Construction of the Feminine in the Hobbit." Lion and the Unicorn 22.2 (1998): 188-95.

              We�ve also had some good papers on the early life of Galadriel in the last few years which might be useful:

              Carter, Susan. �Galadriel and Morgan le Fey: Tolkien�s Redemption of the Lady of the Lacuna.� Mythlore 25.3/4 (#97/98) (2007): 71-89.
              Looks at Galadriel�s role in the text of The Lord of the Rings�specifically at what is not revealed about her there�finding parallels with the treatment of Morgan le Fey in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, one of the Middle English texts with which Tolkien was most associated as a scholar.

              Lakowski, Romuald Ian. �The Fall and Repentance of Galadriel.� Mythlore 25.3/4 (#97/98) (2007): 91-116.
              Fills in some of the gaps of Galadriel�s depiction in The Lord of the Rings with a close examination of her history throughout the development of Tolkien�s legendarium, and particularly Tolkien�s evolving conception of her rebellion and redemption.

              And this all reminds me I need to be working on MY presentation, too!

              Oh, and consider this another plug for the Mythlore Index, folks. Very handy to have around!

              Janet Brennan Croft
              Associate Professor
              Head of Access Services
              University of Oklahoma Libraries
              Bizzell 104NW
              Norman OK 73019
              405-325-1918
              Fax 405-325-7618
              jbcroft@...<mailto:jbcroft@...>
              http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/C/Janet.B.Croft-1/
              http://libraries.ou.edu/
              Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html
              Editor of Oklahoma Librarian
              http://www.oklibs.org/oklibrarian/current/index.html
              "Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the rising ape
              meets the falling angel." -Terry Pratchett
              ________________________________
              From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Edith Crowe [correspondence@...]
              Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 3:31 PM
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [mythsoc] Tolkien, women, gender and brain-picking




              I'm one of the presenters at the NEH-funded institute "J. R. R. Tolkien's
              The Lord of the Rings: The Real and the Imagined Middle Ages" at UT-Commerce
              this summer. I'm supposed to be the gender expert, although where they got
              that notion I have no idea. But hey, who turns down a free trip to Commerce,
              Texas in August? (See
              http://community.livejournal.com/lotr_middleages/886.html if you wish, but
              please be advised I did not write the blurb attached to my name, and its
              hyperbole makes me by turns appalled and hysterical.)

              I hereby humbly request that fellow scholars and aficionados help me out by
              answering the following:
              What do you think are the best and worst things written on the topic of
              Tolkien and women/gender/the feminine, etc. in Tolkien's work (and
              preferably why)? In addition (or instead of) what are the most widely held
              wrong-headed notions about the previous topics held by scholars or the
              general public?

              I have some notions of my own but this group is more widely read and
              variously opinionated than my head by itself. I just got a first deadline of
              June 1 for handouts to be copied, so I am suddenly more highly motivated
              than heretofore, and your assistance will be greatly appreciated.
              Replies can be sent to me at correspondence@...<mailto:correspondence%40mythsoc.org> or shared with the
              list if you like.
              --
              Edith Crowe, Corresponding Secretary
              The Mythopoeic Society
              http://www.mythsoc.org | correspondence@...<mailto:correspondence%40mythsoc.org>

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Edith Crowe
              Yeah, Janet! What a librarian--I ask for a few examples and I get a whole bibliography. This makes me feel better because it confirms much of what I already
              Message 6 of 18 , May 10, 2009
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                Yeah, Janet! What a librarian--I ask for a few examples and I get a whole
                bibliography. This makes me feel better because it confirms much of what I
                already have (in many cases telling me that my vague memory of some of these
                is fairly accurate) and adds some intriguing new items. An link between two
                articles:

                Green, William H. ""Where's Mama?" the Construction of the Feminine in the
                Hobbit." Lion and the Unicorn 22.2 (1998): 188-95.
                An interesting mixed bag, making much of the lack of female characters. From
                his conclusion:
                "In *The Hobbit*, a revisionist version of the Victorian ideology, some
                feminine virtues--such as passivity and fear of adventure--are weaknesses to
                be overcome, but their masculine opposites, the restlessness and
                testosterone-driven ambition of the macho here, are vices. "

                He has a whole section with an argument similar to Melanie Rawls' below,
                although he seems unaware of it--he cites no journal articles at all, only
                13 books (including the infamous Catherine Stimpson's). Melanie's is one of
                the seminal (you'll excuse the expression) articles on Tolkien & gender,
                IMHO.

                > Rawls, Melanie. �The Feminine Principle in Tolkien.� Mythlore 10.4 (#38)
                > (1984): 5-13.
                > Explores the interaction of Masculine and Feminine principles (gender as
                > opposed to sex) in Tolkien�s Middle-earth, showing how the balance of the
                > principles within a character is an important factor in his or her place in
                > the struggle of good and evil, evil resulting in many cases from an
                > imbalance of these principles.


                BTW, I think my own "Power in Arda: Sources, Uses and Misuses" in the
                Centenary Conference *Proceedings* isn't bad either.

                How about some opinions from thoses possessing a Y chromosome?

                >
                >
                > <much snipped>



                > Janet Brennan Croft
                > Associate Professor
                > Head of Access Services
                > University of Oklahoma Libraries
                > Bizzell 104NW
                > Norman OK 73019
                > 405-325-1918
                > Fax 405-325-7618
                > jbcroft@...<mailto:jbcroft@...>
                > http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/C/Janet.B.Croft-1/
                > http://libraries.ou.edu/
                > Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html
                > Editor of Oklahoma Librarian
                > http://www.oklibs.org/oklibrarian/current/index.html
                > "Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the rising ape
                > meets the falling angel." -Terry Pratchett
                > ________________________________
                > From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Edith
                > Crowe [correspondence@...]
                > Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 3:31 PM
                > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [mythsoc] Tolkien, women, gender and brain-picking
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > I'm one of the presenters at the NEH-funded institute "J. R. R. Tolkien's
                > The Lord of the Rings: The Real and the Imagined Middle Ages" at
                > UT-Commerce
                > this summer. I'm supposed to be the gender expert, although where they got
                > that notion I have no idea. But hey, who turns down a free trip to
                > Commerce,
                > Texas in August? (See
                > http://community.livejournal.com/lotr_middleages/886.html if you wish, but
                > please be advised I did not write the blurb attached to my name, and its
                > hyperbole makes me by turns appalled and hysterical.)
                >
                > I hereby humbly request that fellow scholars and aficionados help me out by
                > answering the following:
                > What do you think are the best and worst things written on the topic of
                > Tolkien and women/gender/the feminine, etc. in Tolkien's work (and
                > preferably why)? In addition (or instead of) what are the most widely held
                > wrong-headed notions about the previous topics held by scholars or the
                > general public?
                >
                > I have some notions of my own but this group is more widely read and
                > variously opinionated than my head by itself. I just got a first deadline
                > of
                > June 1 for handouts to be copied, so I am suddenly more highly motivated
                > than heretofore, and your assistance will be greatly appreciated.
                > Replies can be sent to me at correspondence@...<mailto:
                > correspondence%40mythsoc.org <correspondence%2540mythsoc.org>> or shared
                > with the
                > list if you like.
                > --
                > Edith Crowe, Corresponding Secretary
                > The Mythopoeic Society
                > http://www.mythsoc.org | correspondence@...<mailto:
                > correspondence%40mythsoc.org <correspondence%2540mythsoc.org>>
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.orgYahoo<http://www.mythsoc.orgyahoo/>!
                > Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                --
                Edith Crowe, Corresponding Secretary
                The Mythopoeic Society
                http://www.mythsoc.org | correspondence@...


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Joseph Furolo
                Hi Edith This topic interests me a lot. I am an avid reader of Tolkien - no scholar - but currently in possession of a Y chromosome.. All I know is that I find
                Message 7 of 18 , May 11, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Edith

                  This topic interests me a lot. I am an avid reader of Tolkien - no
                  scholar - but currently in possession of a Y chromosome.. All I know
                  is that I find no disrespect or belittlement in Tolkien's depiction of
                  women and the feminine in any of his writings, even the lovely Lobelia
                  Sackville-Baggins.

                  For me, the female Valar and other immortals are the most positive
                  treatment of the feminine, as are the human women of the First and
                  Second Ages. Also the inversion of the 'traditional' male/female
                  associations with sun and moon. But any thoughts of Elbereth and her
                  stars just transports me to the most sublime places.......

                  Will you be covering any of these dimensions of Tolkien's writing in
                  your presentation? I know you are to focus on LOTR but of course
                  Elbereth and the legendarium are part of the imagination of Middle
                  Earth and some note of this broader backdrop perhaps could be noted?.

                  Respectfully.

                  Joseph


                  On 11/05/2009, at 4:33 AM, Edith Crowe wrote:

                  Yeah, Janet! What a librarian--I ask for a few examples and I get a
                  whole
                  bibliography. This makes me feel better because it confirms much of
                  what I
                  already have (in many cases telling me that my vague memory of some of
                  these
                  is fairly accurate) and adds some intriguing new items. An link
                  between two
                  articles:

                  Green, William H. ""Where's Mama?" the Construction of the Feminine in
                  the
                  Hobbit." Lion and the Unicorn 22.2 (1998): 188-95.
                  An interesting mixed bag, making much of the lack of female
                  characters. From
                  his conclusion:
                  "In *The Hobbit*, a revisionist version of the Victorian ideology, some
                  feminine virtues--such as passivity and fear of adventure--are
                  weaknesses to
                  be overcome, but their masculine opposites, the restlessness and
                  testosterone-driven ambition of the macho here, are vices. "

                  He has a whole section with an argument similar to Melanie Rawls' below,
                  although he seems unaware of it--he cites no journal articles at all,
                  only
                  13 books (including the infamous Catherine Stimpson's). Melanie's is
                  one of
                  the seminal (you'll excuse the expression) articles on Tolkien & gender,
                  IMHO.

                  > Rawls, Melanie. “The Feminine Principle in Tolkien.” Mythlore 10.4
                  > (#38)
                  > (1984): 5-13.
                  > Explores the interaction of Masculine and Feminine principles
                  > (gender as
                  > opposed to sex) in Tolkien’s Middle-earth, showing how the balance
                  > of the
                  > principles within a character is an important factor in his or her
                  > place in
                  > the struggle of good and evil, evil resulting in many cases from an
                  > imbalance of these principles.


                  BTW, I think my own "Power in Arda: Sources, Uses and Misuses" in the
                  Centenary Conference *Proceedings* isn't bad either.

                  How about some opinions from thoses possessing a Y chromosome?

                  >
                  >
                  > <much snipped>



                  > Janet Brennan Croft
                  > Associate Professor
                  > Head of Access Services
                  > University of Oklahoma Libraries
                  > Bizzell 104NW
                  > Norman OK 73019
                  > 405-325-1918
                  > Fax 405-325-7618
                  > jbcroft@...<mailto:jbcroft@...>
                  > http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/C/Janet.B.Croft-1/
                  > http://libraries.ou.edu/
                  > Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html
                  > Editor of Oklahoma Librarian
                  > http://www.oklibs.org/oklibrarian/current/index.html
                  > "Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the rising ape
                  > meets the falling angel." -Terry Pratchett
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  > Edith
                  > Crowe [correspondence@...]
                  > Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 3:31 PM
                  > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [mythsoc] Tolkien, women, gender and brain-picking
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I'm one of the presenters at the NEH-funded institute "J. R. R.
                  > Tolkien's
                  > The Lord of the Rings: The Real and the Imagined Middle Ages" at
                  > UT-Commerce
                  > this summer. I'm supposed to be the gender expert, although where
                  > they got
                  > that notion I have no idea. But hey, who turns down a free trip to
                  > Commerce,
                  > Texas in August? (See
                  > http://community.livejournal.com/lotr_middleages/886.html if you
                  > wish, but
                  > please be advised I did not write the blurb attached to my name, and
                  > its
                  > hyperbole makes me by turns appalled and hysterical.)
                  >
                  > I hereby humbly request that fellow scholars and aficionados help me
                  > out by
                  > answering the following:
                  > What do you think are the best and worst things written on the topic
                  > of
                  > Tolkien and women/gender/the feminine, etc. in Tolkien's work (and
                  > preferably why)? In addition (or instead of) what are the most
                  > widely held
                  > wrong-headed notions about the previous topics held by scholars or the
                  > general public?
                  >
                  > I have some notions of my own but this group is more widely read and
                  > variously opinionated than my head by itself. I just got a first
                  > deadline
                  > of
                  > June 1 for handouts to be copied, so I am suddenly more highly
                  > motivated
                  > than heretofore, and your assistance will be greatly appreciated.
                  > Replies can be sent to me at correspondence@...<mailto:
                  > correspondence%40mythsoc.org <correspondence%2540mythsoc.org>> or
                  > shared
                  > with the
                  > list if you like.
                  > --
                  > Edith Crowe, Corresponding Secretary
                  > The Mythopoeic Society
                  > http://www.mythsoc.org | correspondence@...<mailto:
                  > correspondence%40mythsoc.org <correspondence%2540mythsoc.org>>
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.orgYahoo<http://www.mythsoc.orgyahoo/
                  > >!
                  > Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  --
                  Edith Crowe, Corresponding Secretary
                  The Mythopoeic Society
                  http://www.mythsoc.org | correspondence@...


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  ------------------------------------

                  The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.orgYahoo! Groups Links
                • "Beregond, Anders Stenström"
                  ... Tolkien adheres to the Germanic tradition, with masculine Moon and feminine Sun (evident e.g. in German _der Mond_/_die Sonne_). Chivalrously, Beregond
                  Message 8 of 18 , May 11, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Joseph Furolo wrote:

                    > Also the inversion of the 'traditional' male/female
                    > associations with sun and moon.

                    Tolkien adheres to the Germanic tradition, with masculine Moon
                    and feminine Sun (evident e.g. in German _der Mond_/_die Sonne_).

                    Chivalrously,

                    Beregond
                  • Merlin DeTardo
                    ... On that subject, see also Yvette Kisor s short article with a long title in vol. 4 of _Tolkien Studies_: Elves (and Hobbits) always refer to the Sun as
                    Message 9 of 18 , May 11, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      ---"Beregond, Anders Stenström" <beregond@...> wrote:
                      >Joseph Furolo wrote:
                      >>Also the inversion of the 'traditional' male/female associations with sun and moon.

                      >Tolkien adheres to the Germanic tradition, with masculine Moon and feminine Sun (evident e.g. in German _der Mond_/_die Sonne_).


                      On that subject, see also Yvette Kisor's short article with a long title in vol. 4 of _Tolkien Studies_: "'Elves (and Hobbits) always refer to the Sun as She': Some Notes on a Note in Tolkien's _The Lord of the Rings_".

                      -Merlin DeTardo
                    • Doug Kane
                      ... treatment of the feminine Elizabeth Whittingham has an excellent discussion of this subject, and how the depiction of the Valier and other female spirits
                      Message 10 of 18 , May 11, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Joseph Furolo wrote:

                        > For me, the female Valar and other immortals are the most positive
                        treatment of the feminine

                        Elizabeth Whittingham has an excellent discussion of this subject, and how
                        the depiction of the Valier and other female spirits changed over the
                        history of Tolkien's writing of his mythology in her _The Evolution of
                        Tolkien's Mythology_. Sorry I don't have the book here so I can't give
                        specific page citations.

                        Doug
                      • Croft, Janet B.
                        I also just heard a paper at Pop Culture that covered the same ground as Rawls but didn t cite her. I told the presenter she needed to read both the Rawls and
                        Message 11 of 18 , May 11, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I also just heard a paper at Pop Culture that covered the same ground as Rawls but didn't cite her. I told the presenter she needed to read both the Rawls and your paper (which is one of the most important ones on the topic, but I figured you knew that already...)

                          Janet


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Edith Crowe
                          Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 1:34 PM
                          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien, women, gender and brain-picking

                          Yeah, Janet! What a librarian--I ask for a few examples and I get a whole
                          bibliography. This makes me feel better because it confirms much of what I
                          already have (in many cases telling me that my vague memory of some of these
                          is fairly accurate) and adds some intriguing new items. An link between two
                          articles:

                          Green, William H. ""Where's Mama?" the Construction of the Feminine in the
                          Hobbit." Lion and the Unicorn 22.2 (1998): 188-95.
                          An interesting mixed bag, making much of the lack of female characters. From
                          his conclusion:
                          "In *The Hobbit*, a revisionist version of the Victorian ideology, some
                          feminine virtues--such as passivity and fear of adventure--are weaknesses to
                          be overcome, but their masculine opposites, the restlessness and
                          testosterone-driven ambition of the macho here, are vices. "

                          He has a whole section with an argument similar to Melanie Rawls' below,
                          although he seems unaware of it--he cites no journal articles at all, only
                          13 books (including the infamous Catherine Stimpson's). Melanie's is one of
                          the seminal (you'll excuse the expression) articles on Tolkien & gender,
                          IMHO.

                          > Rawls, Melanie. "The Feminine Principle in Tolkien." Mythlore 10.4 (#38)
                          > (1984): 5-13.
                          > Explores the interaction of Masculine and Feminine principles (gender as
                          > opposed to sex) in Tolkien's Middle-earth, showing how the balance of the
                          > principles within a character is an important factor in his or her place in
                          > the struggle of good and evil, evil resulting in many cases from an
                          > imbalance of these principles.


                          BTW, I think my own "Power in Arda: Sources, Uses and Misuses" in the
                          Centenary Conference *Proceedings* isn't bad either.

                          How about some opinions from thoses possessing a Y chromosome?

                          >
                          >
                          > <much snipped>



                          > Janet Brennan Croft
                          > Associate Professor
                          > Head of Access Services
                          > University of Oklahoma Libraries
                          > Bizzell 104NW
                          > Norman OK 73019
                          > 405-325-1918
                          > Fax 405-325-7618
                          > jbcroft@...<mailto:jbcroft@...>
                          > http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/C/Janet.B.Croft-1/
                          > http://libraries.ou.edu/
                          > Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html
                          > Editor of Oklahoma Librarian
                          > http://www.oklibs.org/oklibrarian/current/index.html
                          > "Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the rising ape
                          > meets the falling angel." -Terry Pratchett
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Edith
                          > Crowe [correspondence@...]
                          > Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 3:31 PM
                          > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [mythsoc] Tolkien, women, gender and brain-picking
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I'm one of the presenters at the NEH-funded institute "J. R. R. Tolkien's
                          > The Lord of the Rings: The Real and the Imagined Middle Ages" at
                          > UT-Commerce
                          > this summer. I'm supposed to be the gender expert, although where they got
                          > that notion I have no idea. But hey, who turns down a free trip to
                          > Commerce,
                          > Texas in August? (See
                          > http://community.livejournal.com/lotr_middleages/886.html if you wish, but
                          > please be advised I did not write the blurb attached to my name, and its
                          > hyperbole makes me by turns appalled and hysterical.)
                          >
                          > I hereby humbly request that fellow scholars and aficionados help me out by
                          > answering the following:
                          > What do you think are the best and worst things written on the topic of
                          > Tolkien and women/gender/the feminine, etc. in Tolkien's work (and
                          > preferably why)? In addition (or instead of) what are the most widely held
                          > wrong-headed notions about the previous topics held by scholars or the
                          > general public?
                          >
                          > I have some notions of my own but this group is more widely read and
                          > variously opinionated than my head by itself. I just got a first deadline
                          > of
                          > June 1 for handouts to be copied, so I am suddenly more highly motivated
                          > than heretofore, and your assistance will be greatly appreciated.
                          > Replies can be sent to me at correspondence@...<mailto:
                          > correspondence%40mythsoc.org <correspondence%2540mythsoc.org>> or shared
                          > with the
                          > list if you like.
                          > --
                          > Edith Crowe, Corresponding Secretary
                          > The Mythopoeic Society
                          > http://www.mythsoc.org | correspondence@...<mailto:
                          > correspondence%40mythsoc.org <correspondence%2540mythsoc.org>>
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.orgYahoo<http://www.mythsoc.orgyahoo/>!
                          > Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          --
                          Edith Crowe, Corresponding Secretary
                          The Mythopoeic Society
                          http://www.mythsoc.org | correspondence@...


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          ------------------------------------

                          The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.orgYahoo! Groups Links
                        • alexeik@aol.com
                          ... From: Joseph Furolo To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 6:59 am Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien, women, gender
                          Message 12 of 18 , May 11, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Joseph Furolo <joseph.f@...>
                            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Mon, 11 May 2009 6:59 am
                            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Tolkien, women, gender and brain-picking
                            Also the inversion of the 'traditional' male/female
                            associations with sun and moon.
                            <<

                            Tolkien's gender associations for sun and moon are the "traditional"
                            ones for Germanic languages.
                            Alexei
                          • Merlin DeTardo
                            ... And Kristine Larsen treats the evolution of Varda specifically in (V)Arda Marred: The Evolution of the Queen of the Stars in Tolkien s Legendarium , which
                            Message 13 of 18 , May 11, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              ---"Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:
                              >>Elizabeth Whittingham has an excellent discussion of this subject, and how the depiction of the Valier and other female spirits changed over the history of Tolkien's writing of his mythology in her _The Evolution of Tolkien's Mythology_. Sorry I don't have the book here so I can't give specific page citations.


                              And Kristine Larsen treats the evolution of Varda specifically in "(V)Arda Marred: The Evolution of the Queen of the Stars in Tolkien's Legendarium", which she posted online here:

                              http://www.physics.ccsu.edu/larsen/varda.html

                              -Merlin DeTardo
                            • Edith Crowe
                              Doug, I agree--I have Whittingham s book next to me even as we speak, ready to copy the relevant pages (92-98). She also has a bit on pp. 19-21 noting the very
                              Message 14 of 18 , May 11, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Doug, I agree--I have Whittingham's book next to me even as we speak, ready
                                to copy the relevant pages (92-98). She also has a bit on pp. 19-21 noting
                                the very male-oriented education and upbringing Tolkien had, especially
                                after his mother's death.

                                On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Doug Kane <dougkane@...>wrote:

                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Joseph Furolo wrote:
                                >
                                > > For me, the female Valar and other immortals are the most positive
                                > treatment of the feminine
                                >
                                > Elizabeth Whittingham has an excellent discussion of this subject, and how
                                > the depiction of the Valier and other female spirits changed over the
                                > history of Tolkien's writing of his mythology in her _The Evolution of
                                > Tolkien's Mythology_. Sorry I don't have the book here so I can't give
                                > specific page citations.
                                >
                                > Doug
                                >
                                >
                                >



                                --
                                Edith Crowe, Corresponding Secretary
                                The Mythopoeic Society
                                http://www.mythsoc.org | correspondence@...


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Edith Crowe
                                Joseph, I hope so. As I understand it, this is institute is designed for high school teachers of Tolkien, so I expect they will be most interested in LOTR.
                                Message 15 of 18 , May 11, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Joseph, I hope so. As I understand it, this is institute is designed for
                                  high school teachers of Tolkien, so I expect they will be most interested in
                                  LOTR. However, it's pretty limiting to talk about women/gender issues and
                                  limit oneself only to LOTR. I'm hoping some of their students will be up for
                                  some extra credit assignments that will get them into other parts of the
                                  legendarium--especiallywhen they relate to characters or situations in LOTR
                                  (Galadriel's wild youth; why Arwen Warrior Princess is less of a stretch
                                  when you know more about her female ancestry, etc.).

                                  On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 2:59 AM, Joseph Furolo <joseph.f@...>wrote:

                                  > Hi Edith
                                  >
                                  > Will you be covering any of these dimensions of Tolkien's writing in
                                  > your presentation? I know you are to focus on LOTR but of course
                                  > Elbereth and the legendarium are part of the imagination of Middle
                                  > Earth and some note of this broader backdrop perhaps could be noted?.
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > Edith Crowe, Corresponding Secretary
                                  > The Mythopoeic Society
                                  > http://www.mythsoc.org | correspondence@...
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Merlin DeTardo
                                  ... Just an aside: that essay was criticized in two different papers delivered last month at the sixth annual Tolkien conference at the University of Vermont;
                                  Message 16 of 18 , May 16, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    ---"Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...> wrote:
                                    > As a corrective, consider this one:
                                    > Timmons, Daniel. "Hobbit Sex and Sensuality in The Lord of the Rings." Mythlore 23.3 (#89) (2001): 70-79.
                                    > Refutes critics who see no evidence of mature sexuality in Tolkien's Middle-earth by examining the distinction between sex and sensuality, and by describing depictions of romantic and married love in contrast to matelessness.

                                    Just an aside: that essay was criticized in two different papers delivered last month at the sixth annual Tolkien conference at the University of Vermont; you can read a report on that conference here:

                                    http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=183401

                                    -Merlin DeTardo
                                  • David Bratman
                                    ... I may have missed something, but I could only see one discussion of Timmons in that report. It is perilous to judge any paper by a second-hand report
                                    Message 17 of 18 , May 16, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Merlin DeTardo <emptyD@...> wrote:

                                      >---"Croft, Janet B." <jbcroft@...> wrote:
                                      >> As a corrective, consider this one:
                                      >> Timmons, Daniel. "Hobbit Sex and Sensuality in The Lord of the Rings." Mythlore 23.3 (#89) (2001):
                                      >>70-79.
                                      >> Refutes critics who see no evidence of mature sexuality in Tolkien's Middle-earth by examining the
                                      >>distinction between sex and sensuality, and by describing depictions of romantic and married love in
                                      >>contrast to matelessness.
                                      >
                                      >Just an aside: that essay was criticized in two different papers delivered last month at the sixth
                                      >annual Tolkien conference at the University of Vermont; you can read a report on that conference here:
                                      >
                                      >http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=183401

                                      I may have missed something, but I could only see one discussion of Timmons in that report. It is perilous to judge any paper by a second-hand report summary by someone taking notes, but if that is a fair summary of Vaccaro's arguments, Timmons stands unimpaired.

                                      In fact, the comment quoted that "Vaccaro reported with approval," the one beginning, "Sam's love for Frodo and for Rosie are two different kinds of love… I don't think Sam imagined that the one would affect the other," actually paraphrases one of Timmons' most important points, on p. 78: "No depicted or implied rivalry exists between Frodo and Rose for the love of Sam. Each share a 'spiritual' bond, sensual in certain respects, but of a different order and distinctive nature." (There's more on this, mostly further up the page.)

                                      Lastly, somebody will have to tell me what's at all homophobic about Timmons' paper. Is it that he brushes aside critics who "imagined a submerged homoeroticism between Tolkien and Lewis (or Sam and Frodo)"?
                                    • Merlin DeTardo
                                      ... Perilous indeed! You missed nothing, David: my report mentions Timmons only once. His essay also came up briefly in Chance s paper, but my notes include no
                                      Message 18 of 18 , May 16, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        ---David Bratman <dbratman@...> wrote:
                                        > I may have missed something, but I could only see one discussion of Timmons in that report. It is perilous to judge any paper by a second-hand report summary by someone taking notes, but if that is a fair summary of Vaccaro's arguments, Timmons stands unimpaired.

                                        Perilous indeed! You missed nothing, David: my report mentions Timmons only once. His essay also came up briefly in Chance's paper, but my notes include no details, except that her comments echoed Vaccaro's. That I haven't read Timmons' study certainly doesn't help the report. However, since Chance's piece is slated for publication later this year, it should soon be possible to consider her argument more closely.

                                        -Merlin DeTardo
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