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Re: [mythsoc] Terry Pratchett Knighted

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  • Matt Wirkkala
    Yes, CBE, Commanders of the Order of the British Empire. -mwirkk :) ... From: Margaret Dean; Sent: Thur, Feb 19, 2009 2:36 PM ... IIRC Tolkien received one of
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 19, 2009
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      Yes, CBE, Commanders of the Order of the British Empire.

      -mwirkk :)
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Margaret Dean; Sent: Thur, Feb 19, 2009 2:36 PM

      > On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 10:08 PM, John D Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
      > wrote:
      > <snip>

      IIRC Tolkien received one of the lesser honours (Companion of the
      British Empire?). But yes, I am happy to see Sir Terry get the
      recognition!
    • William Cloud Hicklin
      Of course nearly a half-century ago the Honours List was rather stingier. I don t think *any* popular author got a shoulder tap before Agatha Christie in
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 20, 2009
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        Of course nearly a half-century ago the Honours List was
        rather stingier. I don't think *any* popular author got a
        shoulder tap before Agatha Christie in 1971.* Now of course
        they hand them out to pop stars and whomever. (The first
        (honorary) KBE to a rocker, Bob Geldof, was for his
        humanitarian work. Recently there's been no such excuse, Sir
        Elton).

        Note: it's rumored, probably accurately, that Lewis declined
        a proffered knighthood. However, that would have been for
        his Christian apologetics, not his fiction.

        *Yes, I know that Dames aren't actually dubbed a l'epee.


        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Matt Wirkkala" <mwirkk@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Yes, CBE, Commanders of the Order of the British Empire.
        >
        > -mwirkk :)
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Margaret Dean; Sent: Thur, Feb 19, 2009 2:36 PM
        >
        > > On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 10:08 PM, John D Rateliff
        <sacnoth@...>
        > > wrote:
        > > <snip>
        >
        > IIRC Tolkien received one of the lesser honours (Companion
        of the
        > British Empire?). But yes, I am happy to see Sir Terry get
        the
        > recognition!
        >
      • David Bratman
        ... What Lewis declined, in 1951, was a CBE - the same honour that Tolkien received in 1972. That stands for Commander of the British Empire and is NOT a
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 20, 2009
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          "William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...> wrote:

          > Note: it's rumored, probably accurately, that Lewis declined
          > a proffered knighthood. However, that would have been for
          > his Christian apologetics, not his fiction.

          What Lewis declined, in 1951, was a CBE - the same honour that Tolkien
          received in 1972. That stands for Commander of the British Empire and is
          NOT a knighthood. It is a lesser honour of the same kind. (See "Order of
          the British Empire" in Wikipedia if you care.) What Lewis wrote in
          declining was, "There are always knaves who say, and fools who believe, that
          my religious writings are all covert anti-Leftist propaganda, and my
          appearance in the Honours List woul;d of course strengthen their hands. It
          is therefore better that I should not appear there." (Collected Letters, v.
          3, p. 147)

          > Of course nearly a half-century ago the Honours List was
          > rather stingier. I don't think *any* popular author got a
          > shoulder tap before Agatha Christie in 1971.* Now of course
          > they hand them out to pop stars and whomever. (The first
          > (honorary) KBE to a rocker, Bob Geldof, was for his
          > humanitarian work. Recently there's been no such excuse, Sir
          > Elton).

          Actually, the MBE in particular - another, lower, honour in that Order - has
          been a subject of scorn since it was invented during WW1. A.A. Milne wrote
          a deeply sarcastic poem criticizing war profiteers who received it. The
          first pop stars to get it were the Beatles in 1965, and wasn't there a furor
          over that. It was the government's idea - they wanted to seem hip - and the
          justification was that the Beatles had enormously helped Britain's trade
          balance.
        • John D Rateliff
          ... The major exception being Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, though he received his knighthood (in 1902?) for writing propaganda in support of the Boer War (ugh), not
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 24, 2009
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            On Feb 20, 2009, at 6:47 AM, William Cloud Hicklin wrote:
            > Of course nearly a half-century ago the Honours List was rather
            > stingier. I don't think *any* popular author got a shoulder tap
            > before Agatha Christie in 1971.

            The major exception being Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, though he received
            his knighthood (in 1902?) for writing propaganda in support of the
            Boer War (ugh), not for the Sherlock Holmes stories.

            --JDR
          • William Cloud Hicklin
            ... declined ... for ... that Tolkien ... British Empire and is ... kind. (See Order of ... wrote in ... who believe, that ... propaganda, and my ... their
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 25, 2009
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              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "David Bratman" <dbratman@
              ...> wrote:
              >
              > "William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Note: it's rumored, probably accurately, that Lewis
              declined
              > > a proffered knighthood. However, that would have been
              for
              > > his Christian apologetics, not his fiction.
              >
              > What Lewis declined, in 1951, was a CBE - the same honour
              that Tolkien
              > received in 1972. That stands for Commander of the
              British Empire and is
              > NOT a knighthood. It is a lesser honour of the same
              kind. (See "Order of
              > the British Empire" in Wikipedia if you care.) What Lewis
              wrote in
              > declining was, "There are always knaves who say, and fools
              who believe, that
              > my religious writings are all covert anti-Leftist
              propaganda, and my
              > appearance in the Honours List woul;d of course strengthen
              their hands. It
              > is therefore better that I should not appear
              there." (Collected Letters, v.
              > 3, p. 147)
              >
              > > Of course nearly a half-century ago the Honours List was
              > > rather stingier. I don't think *any* popular author got
              a
              > > shoulder tap before Agatha Christie in 1971.* Now of
              course
              > > they hand them out to pop stars and whomever. (The first
              > > (honorary) KBE to a rocker, Bob Geldof, was for his
              > > humanitarian work. Recently there's been no such excuse,
              Sir
              > > Elton).
              >
              > Actually, the MBE in particular - another, lower, honour
              in that Order - has
              > been a subject of scorn since it was invented during WW1.
              A.A. Milne wrote
              > a deeply sarcastic poem criticizing war profiteers who
              received it. The
              > first pop stars to get it were the Beatles in 1965, and
              wasn't there a furor
              > over that. It was the government's idea - they wanted to
              seem hip - and the
              > justification was that the Beatles had enormously helped
              Britain's trade
              > balance.
              >

              Oh, there's always been a bit of scorn for the way the lower
              grades have been (according to some) passed out like
              popcorn: "Minimal Bloody Effort" and "Other Buggers' Effort"
              are some of the snarks. But awards of the K's used to be
              held on a tighter leash than they are now.
            • David Bratman
              ... What is true is that there s been grade inflation, at least in these specific areas of renown. A degree of pop-music, or literary, fame that might get
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 25, 2009
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                "William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...> wrote:

                > Oh, there's always been a bit of scorn for the way the lower
                > grades have been (according to some) passed out like
                > popcorn: "Minimal Bloody Effort" and "Other Buggers' Effort"
                > are some of the snarks. But awards of the K's used to be
                > held on a tighter leash than they are now.

                What is true is that there's been "grade inflation," at least in these
                specific areas of renown. A degree of pop-music, or literary, fame that
                might get you an MBE forty years ago is more likely to get you a knighthood
                now. And certain areas of past abuse - honours to corrupt political party
                contributors and such - are not quite as blatant as they used to be, though
                problems still crop up.

                But a statement that the Honours List used to be "stingier" might be read
                that it used to bear more relation to actual merit than it does now, and I
                don't think that's the case. Over a longer term - look back more than 150
                years - and literary merit was rarely recognized at all.

                That wasn't even viewed as the purpose of honours. They were more
                recognitions of social standing. Lord Melbourne famously said, "What I like
                about the Order of the Garter [the highest order of knighthood] is that
                there is no damned merit about it." Partly to address this is why a
                non-knightly honour actually called the Order of Merit was created in 1902.
                It was intended to be without the social cachet of a knighthood or peerage,
                in particular that you didn't have to be rich to live up to social
                obligations that went with it. And some of the same spirit has leaked into
                the OBE and other honours since then. Now that the hereditary peers are out
                of the House of Lords - and even to an extent before then - being granted a
                peerage today pretty much means only that you can speak in the Lords, with
                none of the subjective connotations of nobility that being a peer used to
                have.
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