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Re: [mythsoc] Fredrick/McBride - Women Among the Inklings

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  • John D Rateliff
    Wow. Going onto amazon, bookfinder, &c. and looking at the resale prices was quite a shock. I have no idea why this book is going for such high prices,
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 18, 2009
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      Wow. Going onto amazon, bookfinder, &c. and looking at the resale
      prices was quite a shock.

      I have no idea why this book is going for such high prices,
      starting at over $100 and going way up from there (one dealer is
      trying to get $1500 for it).

      I don't remember what the original price was, but since Greenwood
      is an American publisher it was in dollars, not pounds. I do remember
      putting off buying it for several years since it was fairly
      expensive, but certainly it would have been no more than $59, if that.

      How odd. Why this one, of all the vast array of books on Tolkien
      in the last decade? It sounds as if it were either severely
      underprinted or as if much of the print run were lost. But if that
      had been the case, I don't think I'd have been able to get it in
      2005, four years after it'd been released, and off amazon.com at
      that. I wouldn't be surprised if this were that Prentice-Hall book
      that was cancelled before publication so that only a few review
      copies got out, but this was readily available for years. Odd.

      --JDR


      On Feb 18, 2009, at 1:56 PM, Jeremy Edmonds wrote:
      > Hi all,
      >
      > I got a phone call today (in my role as distributor for the
      > Mythopoeic Press) from someone looking to order a copy of _Women
      > Among the Inklings_. They thought we carried it due to the review
      > on our website ( http://www.mythsoc.org/reviews/
      > women.among.the.inklings/ ).
      >
      > My two question are:
      >
      > (a) it appears according to the publisher, that the book was not
      > $59.00 as the online review states, but £59.95, or almost double
      > (pounds rather than dollars). Which price is printed in the
      > original review in Mythprint 39:6 (#243) June 2002? Was the book
      > originally $59 and has since gone up? For reference, http://
      > www.greenwood.com/catalog/GM1245.aspx
      >
      > (b) Does anyone have a copy they would be willing to part with?
      >
      > Worldcat also shows that there are only three copies in libraries
      > all around the world, and all three of those are in Germany. Was
      > this book banned or something? :-)
      >
      > http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/231883630
      >
      > Jeremy
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      The answer is simple, alas, and you ve already cited it, John: Greenwood. They did the same thing to my and Verlyn s (editors) _Tolkien s Legendarium_: after
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 18, 2009
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        The answer is simple, alas, and you've already cited it, John:
        Greenwood.

        They did the same thing to my and Verlyn's (editors) _Tolkien's
        Legendarium_: after selling out the initial print run (itself at
        libraries-only pricing), they 1) switched the book to print-on-demand
        only (and this with a _scanned_, and noticeably reduced-quality,
        reproduction of the _printed_ text) and 2) jacked up the price even
        further.

        Sigh.

        Carl
      • Croft, Janet B.
        Well, I ve seen this with other Tolkien books from academic publishers as well - my own War book goes for as high as $83, the Anderson and Hammond bibliography
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 18, 2009
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          Well, I've seen this with other Tolkien books from academic publishers as well - my own War book goes for as high as $83, the Anderson and Hammond bibliography was over $100 last I looked, as was one of Jane Chance's anthologies - the publisher won't risk printing a lot and keeping a large stock, so a secondary market springs up charging as much as it can get away with.

          And Women Among the Inklings was a Greenwood Press book like mine, so it was kind of orphaned when they got bought out/changed their focus - it's unlikely to be reprinted by Greenwood since they don't do that kind of book anymore.

          Also, may I recommend http://thecheapestbook.com, which goes out and hunts all kinds of sites for you.

          Janet

          From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John D Rateliff
          Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 4:16 PM
          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Fredrick/McBride - Women Among the Inklings


          Wow. Going onto amazon, bookfinder, &c. and looking at the resale
          prices was quite a shock.

          I have no idea why this book is going for such high prices,
          starting at over $100 and going way up from there (one dealer is
          trying to get $1500 for it).

          I don't remember what the original price was, but since Greenwood
          is an American publisher it was in dollars, not pounds. I do remember
          putting off buying it for several years since it was fairly
          expensive, but certainly it would have been no more than $59, if that.

          How odd. Why this one, of all the vast array of books on Tolkien
          in the last decade? It sounds as if it were either severely
          underprinted or as if much of the print run were lost. But if that
          had been the case, I don't think I'd have been able to get it in
          2005, four years after it'd been released, and off amazon.com at
          that. I wouldn't be surprised if this were that Prentice-Hall book
          that was cancelled before publication so that only a few review
          copies got out, but this was readily available for years. Odd.

          --JDR

          On Feb 18, 2009, at 1:56 PM, Jeremy Edmonds wrote:
          > Hi all,
          >
          > I got a phone call today (in my role as distributor for the
          > Mythopoeic Press) from someone looking to order a copy of _Women
          > Among the Inklings_. They thought we carried it due to the review
          > on our website ( http://www.mythsoc.org/reviews/
          > women.among.the.inklings/ ).
          >
          > My two question are:
          >
          > (a) it appears according to the publisher, that the book was not
          > $59.00 as the online review states, but £59.95, or almost double
          > (pounds rather than dollars). Which price is printed in the
          > original review in Mythprint 39:6 (#243) June 2002? Was the book
          > originally $59 and has since gone up? For reference, http://
          > www.greenwood.com/catalog/GM1245.aspx
          >
          > (b) Does anyone have a copy they would be willing to part with?
          >
          > Worldcat also shows that there are only three copies in libraries
          > all around the world, and all three of those are in Germany. Was
          > this book banned or something? :-)
          >
          > http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/231883630
          >
          > Jeremy



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Carl F. Hostetter
          ... True in the sense of issuing another print run , but you can in fact still buy the book from Greenwood, for a mere $106.95:
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 18, 2009
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            On Feb 18, 2009, at 5:48 PM, Croft, Janet B. wrote:

            > it's unlikely to be reprinted by Greenwood
            >

            True in the sense of "issuing another print run", but you can in fact
            still buy the book from Greenwood, for a mere $106.95:

            http://www.greenwood.com/catalog/GM1245.aspx
          • Croft, Janet B.
            True, and sad if what you say about the quality of the reprinting is accurate. Bleah! But it s unlikely Greenwood will be interested in a second edition with
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 18, 2009
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              True, and sad if what you say about the quality of the reprinting is accurate. Bleah! But it's unlikely Greenwood will be interested in a second edition with all the neat new stuff I've learned - and so far they have not been interested in letting me shop a second edition to a different publisher, either.

              Janet

              From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl F. Hostetter
              Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 4:51 PM
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Fredrick/McBride - Women Among the Inklings


              On Feb 18, 2009, at 5:48 PM, Croft, Janet B. wrote:

              > it's unlikely to be reprinted by Greenwood
              >

              True in the sense of "issuing another print run", but you can in fact
              still buy the book from Greenwood, for a mere $106.95:

              http://www.greenwood.com/catalog/GM1245.aspx



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Carl F. Hostetter
              ... It s certainly true of _Tolkien s Legendarium_ (I even complained to them about it, but all I got in return was some non-sensical gobbledygook that evaded
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 18, 2009
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                On Feb 18, 2009, at 5:54 PM, Croft, Janet B. wrote:

                > True, and sad if what you say about the quality of the reprinting is
                > accurate.
                >

                It's certainly true of _Tolkien's Legendarium_ (I even complained to
                them about it, but all I got in return was some non-sensical
                gobbledygook that evaded the issue.) I wish we could get the rights to
                _TL_ back and issue an inexpensive paperback.
              • David Bratman
                I suppose the reason you (and by you I mean Janet as well as Carl/Verlyn) can t get the rights back is that the books are technically still in print? I
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 18, 2009
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                  I suppose the reason you (and by "you" I mean Janet as well as Carl/Verlyn) can't get the rights back is that the books are technically still in print? I shudder, though, at what contract provisions would prevent Janet from selling a revised edition elsewhere if the original publisher has turned it down.


                  -----Original Message-----
                  >From: "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...>
                  >Sent: Feb 18, 2009 6:01 PM
                  >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Fredrick/McBride - Women Among the Inklings
                  >
                  >
                  >On Feb 18, 2009, at 5:54 PM, Croft, Janet B. wrote:
                  >
                  >> True, and sad if what you say about the quality of the reprinting is
                  >> accurate.
                  >>
                  >
                  >It's certainly true of _Tolkien's Legendarium_ (I even complained to
                  >them about it, but all I got in return was some non-sensical
                  >gobbledygook that evaded the issue.) I wish we could get the rights to
                  >_TL_ back and issue an inexpensive paperback.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >------------------------------------
                  >
                  >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.orgYahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Jeremy Edmonds
                  Thanks to all the quick responses! My notes in response: Worldcat: My search skills are lacking today - I tried two or three ways, but could only get the
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 18, 2009
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                    Thanks to all the quick responses! My notes in response:

                    Worldcat: My search skills are lacking today - I tried two or three ways, but could only get the German results to pop up. Thanks, David for the proper short link for the real results! Hopefully there is a library copy nearby (or inter-library loanable) to the customer.

                    Carl and buying from Greenwood: I did try the "Add to Cart" button earlier and it will certainly charge you for the book, but it says in the fine print that the book will be back-ordered - only after you try to buy it though. There is no indication on the product page that it is out of print.

                    Janet and thecheapestbook.com - thanks for the note on the site! I will add it to a loop I usually run when I am hunting for hard-to-find titles. I also try:

                    http://used.addall.com
                    http://www.bookfinder.com

                    as you can get differing results between the sites (for example, thecheapestbook doesn't find the copy at Amazon.com, but addall and bookfinder do.)

                    Jeremy
                  • Carl F. Hostetter
                    ... Well, if my experience with _Tolkien s Legendarium_ applies here, my guess is that it s also print on demand , and that once you order a copy, it will set
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 18, 2009
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                      On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:13 PM, Jeremy Edmonds wrote:

                      > Carl and buying from Greenwood: I did try the "Add to Cart" button
                      > earlier and it will certainly charge you for the book, but it says
                      > in the fine print that the book will be back-ordered - only after
                      > you try to buy it though. There is no indication on the product page
                      > that it is out of print.
                      >

                      Well, if my experience with _Tolkien's Legendarium_ applies here, my
                      guess is that it's also "print on demand", and that once you order a
                      copy, it will set the print-on-demand wheels creaking and groaning
                      into action, and you'll get a copy in some number of weeks or months.
                    • Edith Crowe
                      I am chagrined to report that the erroneous price of $59 was indeed published with our *Mythprint* review. Our bad. Looks like it s still in print from
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 18, 2009
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                        I am chagrined to report that the erroneous price of $59 was indeed
                        published with our *Mythprint* review. Our bad. Looks like it's still in
                        print from Greenwood--I guess your customer doesn't want to pay the $100+
                        that Greenwood is charging...
                        --
                        Edith Crowe, Corresponding Secretary
                        The Mythopoeic Society
                        http://www.mythsoc.org | correspondence@...
                        On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Jeremy Edmonds <jeremy@...> wrote:

                        > Hi all,
                        >
                        > I got a phone call today (in my role as distributor for the Mythopoeic
                        > Press) from someone looking to order a copy of _Women Among the Inklings_.
                        > They thought we carried it due to the review on our website (
                        > http://www.mythsoc.org/reviews/women.among.the.inklings/ ).
                        >
                        > My two question are:
                        >
                        > (a) it appears according to the publisher, that the book was not $59.00 as
                        > the online review states, but £59.95, or almost double (pounds rather than
                        > dollars). Which price is printed in the original review in Mythprint 39:6
                        > (#243) June 2002? Was the book originally $59 and has since gone up? For
                        > reference, http://www.greenwood.com/catalog/GM1245.aspx
                        >
                        > (b) Does anyone have a copy they would be willing to part with?
                        >
                        > Worldcat also shows that there are only three copies in libraries all
                        > around the world, and all three of those are in Germany. Was this book
                        > banned or something? :-)
                        >
                        > http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/231883630
                        >
                        > Jeremy
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Carl F. Hostetter
                        I suspect the price really was $59 when the book was first published. But now that it s gone to print on demand, they ve raised the price. At least, that s
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 18, 2009
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                          I suspect the price really was $59 when the book was first published.
                          But now that it's gone to print on demand, they've raised the price.
                          At least, that's what happened to _Tolkien's Legendarium_.


                          On Feb 18, 2009, at 7:18 PM, Edith Crowe wrote:

                          > I am chagrined to report that the erroneous price of $59 was indeed
                          > published with our *Mythprint* review. Our bad. Looks like it's
                          > still in
                          > print from Greenwood--I guess your customer doesn't want to pay the
                          > $100+
                          > that Greenwood is charging...
                        • Wayne G. Hammond
                          ... It was. Christina and I recorded the details in _Tolkien Collector_ 25 (October 2001). ... Although Oak Knoll Press does have short print runs, it has
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 18, 2009
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                            Carl wrote:

                            >I suspect the price really was $59 when the book was first published.

                            It was. Christina and I recorded the details in _Tolkien Collector_ 25
                            (October 2001).

                            Janet wrote:

                            >Well, I've seen this with other Tolkien books from academic publishers as
                            >well - my own War book goes for as high as $83, the Anderson and Hammond
                            >bibliography was over $100 last I looked, as was one of Jane Chance's
                            >anthologies - the publisher won't risk printing a lot and keeping a large
                            >stock, so a secondary market springs up charging as much as it can get
                            >away with.

                            Although Oak Knoll Press does have short print runs, it has always had the
                            _Bibliography_ in stock, and currently sells it at www.oakknoll.com for $94.

                            Wayne


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Jason Fisher
                            Wayne wrote:   ...   Yes, however, I am sad to report that the newer printings also appear to be (in Carl s words, of his and Verlyn s collection) a
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 19, 2009
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                              Wayne wrote:
                               
                              > Although Oak Knoll Press does have short print runs, it has
                              > always had the _Bibliography_ in stock, and currently sells
                              > it at www.oakknoll. com for $94.
                               
                              Yes, however, I am sad to report that the newer printings also appear to be (in Carl's words, of his and Verlyn's collection) "a _scanned_, and noticeably reduced-quality, reproduction of the _printed_ text." It's also physically smaller than the first edition and printed on lighter paper (it almost puts one in mind of a book club edition). I had a borrowed first-edition copy from the library at the same time the copy I bought arrived, so I was able to compare them side by side.* In fact, Jeremy and I discussed this very issue back in January 2008, and he concurred that it appeared to be photo-reproduced. I'm sorry to learn that Greenwood did it too (but happy that my copy of "Tolkien's Legendarium" is the better-quality first edition, sewn signatures and all).
                               
                              Jason

                              * Let me hasten to note that none of these book-making defects render the *contents* of these books any less valuable. It's just a shame to see publishers cutting corners on books already priced so high.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Wayne G. Hammond
                              ... I haven t seen a copy of the latest (third) printing, and am sorry to hear this. I do have a copy of the second printing, which was almost identical to the
                              Message 14 of 23 , Feb 19, 2009
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                                Jason wrote:

                                >Yes, however, I am sad to report that the newer printings also appear to
                                >be (in Carl's words, of his and Verlyn's collection) "a _scanned_, and
                                >noticeably reduced-quality, reproduction of the _printed_ text." It's also
                                >physically smaller than the first edition and printed on lighter paper (it
                                >almost puts one in mind of a book club edition). I had a borrowed
                                >first-edition copy from the library at the same time the copy I bought
                                >arrived, so I was able to compare them side by side. In fact, Jeremy and I
                                >discussed this very issue back in January 2008, and he concurred that it
                                >appeared to be photo-reproduced.

                                I haven't seen a copy of the latest (third) printing, and am sorry to hear
                                this. I do have a copy of the second printing, which was almost identical
                                to the first in manufacture except that the British Library came on as U.K.
                                co-publisher (Oak Knoll by then having absorbed St Paul's Bibliographies).
                                The third printing was meant only as a stop-gap, however, until I can
                                finish a second edition.

                                Wayne


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Jeremy Edmonds
                                ... Hi Wayne, I had a few questions for you - if you seeing a copy of the latest impression from Oak Knoll will help, drop me a note and I can mail you a
                                Message 15 of 23 , Feb 19, 2009
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                                  Wayne wrote:

                                  > I haven't seen a copy of the latest (third) printing, and am sorry to
                                  > hear this. I do have a copy of the second printing, which was almost
                                  > identical to the first in manufacture except that the British Library
                                  > came on as U.K. co-publisher (Oak Knoll by then having absorbed St
                                  > Paul's Bibliographies). The third printing was meant only as a stop-gap,
                                  > however, until I can finish a second edition.

                                  Hi Wayne,

                                  I had a few questions for you - if you seeing a copy of the latest impression from Oak Knoll will help, drop me a note and I can mail you a loaner at any time for you to see.

                                  I have a US copy from 1993 that lists St Pauls as "first published by" - was there a separate British edition prior to the 1st Oak Knoll edition? Is it distinguishable from the Oak Knoll edition?

                                  The latest copies I have from Oak Knoll (I received them about a month ago) say "First edition, second printing, 2002" and mention the British Library instead of St Pauls. Is this what you are calling the third printing (because St Pauls UK was technically the first?) Or did they not change the plates when they scanned the book, so your second printing and my "second printing" are really different? I do agree completely with Jason's analysis of the "new" second printings/third printings, which are easily noticeable.

                                  Jeremy
                                • Andrew
                                  I contacted both authors, and neither had a copy to part with. Good thing to let bad scholarship die quietly, maybe? Still, I d love a copy. Ugh.
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Feb 19, 2009
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                                    I contacted both authors, and neither had a copy to part with. Good
                                    thing to let bad scholarship die quietly, maybe?

                                    Still, I'd love a copy. Ugh.
                                  • Edith Crowe
                                    Apparently that is what happened. Makes me glad I retired from the library biz when I did--making my inadequate budget stretch far enough was impossible in
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Feb 19, 2009
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                                      Apparently that is what happened. Makes me glad I retired from the library
                                      biz when I did--making my inadequate budget stretch far enough was
                                      impossible in 2007; much worse now.

                                      Edith
                                      On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@...>wrote:

                                      > I suspect the price really was $59 when the book was first published.
                                      > But now that it's gone to print on demand, they've raised the price.
                                      > At least, that's what happened to _Tolkien's Legendarium_.
                                      >
                                      > On Feb 18, 2009, at 7:18 PM, Edith Crowe wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > I am chagrined to report that the erroneous price of $59 was indeed
                                      > > published with our *Mythprint* review. Our bad. Looks like it's
                                      > > still in
                                      > > print from Greenwood--I guess your customer doesn't want to pay the
                                      > > $100+
                                      > > that Greenwood is charging...
                                      >
                                      >



                                      --
                                      Edith Crowe, Corresponding Secretary
                                      The Mythopoeic Society
                                      http://www.mythsoc.org | correspondence@...


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Jeremy Edmonds
                                      Just to close out some parts of this thread, Greenwood (owned by ABC-Clio now) confirmed with me on the phone that this title is now Print-On-Demand, thus the
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Feb 19, 2009
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                                        Just to close out some parts of this thread, Greenwood (owned by ABC-Clio now) confirmed with me on the phone that this title is now Print-On-Demand, thus the price increase. For those so inclined to go this route, the publisher's price is $106.95 plus shipping and tax (my shipping estimate was $11 plus California tax brought the total to about $125).

                                        http://www.greenwood.com/catalog/GM1245.aspx

                                        No, I haven't ordered a copy yet.

                                        Thanks again for all the help and lively discussion! And as a side note, I would love to see a second edition of _Legendarium_, and a second edition of the _Bibliography_.

                                        Jeremy
                                      • Jason Fisher
                                        ...   *Thus* the price increase? I thought POD was supposed to cost less, not more. Any number of POD shops I might name could produce the volume for a
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Feb 19, 2009
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                                          Jeremy Edmonds wrote:
                                          > Greenwood [...] confirmed with me on the phone that this title is
                                          > now Print-On-Demand, thus the price increase.
                                           
                                          *Thus* the price increase? I thought POD was supposed to cost less, not more. Any number of POD shops I might name could produce the volume for a quarter, perhaps even a fifth the price they are asking. This doesn't make any sense to me.
                                           
                                          Jason

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Jeremy Edmonds
                                          ... Can t agree with you more - Lulu.com says a book like this would cost approx $22 for a single copy order. I think the logic goes something like this
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Feb 19, 2009
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                                            Jason Fisher said:
                                            > *Thus* the price increase? I thought POD was supposed to cost less, not
                                            > more. Any number of POD shops I might name could produce the volume for a
                                            > quarter, perhaps even a fifth the price they are asking. This doesn't make
                                            > any sense to me.

                                            Can't agree with you more - Lulu.com says a book like this would cost approx $22 for a single copy order. I think the logic goes something like "this allows us to technically keep the book in print so we don't lose rights to it, but makes it inconvenient enough that no-one will bother to actually order a copy." Or something like that.
                                          • Wayne G. Hammond
                                            Jeremy, ... All copies of the first printing have the dual imprint St Paul s Bibliographies and Oak Knoll Press. St Paul s was primary, with Oak Knoll
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Feb 19, 2009
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                                              Jeremy,

                                              >I have a US copy from 1993 that lists St Pauls as "first published by" -
                                              >was there a separate British edition prior to the 1st Oak Knoll edition?
                                              >Is it distinguishable from the Oak Knoll edition?

                                              All copies of the first printing have the dual imprint St Paul's
                                              Bibliographies and Oak Knoll Press. St Paul's was primary, with Oak Knoll
                                              co-publishing in the U.S. Oak Knoll later absorbed St Paul's -- in fact,
                                              for my Arthur Ransome bibliography (2000) I signed the contract with St
                                              Paul's but completed production with Oak Knoll. The second printing of the
                                              Tolkien Bibliography has the dual imprint Oak Knoll Press and British
                                              Library, and the "second printing" notice you cite. The copy sent me at the
                                              time is printed by ordinary offset, with no reduction in quality, on a more
                                              cream-colored paper and with a little heavier inking (an improvement),
                                              though is more tightly bound (not an improvement) in a similar blue cloth
                                              with similar silver stamping. If you have a recent copy still with "second
                                              printing", then Oak Knoll must have run off more copies photographically
                                              without changing the copyright page information. I count a third printing
                                              because Oak Knoll told me they were going back to press pending a second
                                              edition, since the book continues to sell (if slowly).

                                              Wayne



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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