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Re: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien cartoon

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  • Walter Padgett
    Ahh, yes... Where would we be without Christopher Tolkien? Is this the beginning of another Silmarillion appraisal on this list? I can t think of anything
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 17, 2008
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      Ahh, yes... Where would we be without Christopher Tolkien?

      Is this the beginning of another Silmarillion appraisal on this list?
      I can't think of anything much better than that!



      On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...>wrote:

      > > While it is true as you point out that Christopher Tolkien
      > > expresses some regret at certain aspects of his construction
      > > of the published _Silmarillion_ , particularly his failure to
      > > include a "frame", as you say [...], he also said in no uncertain
      > > terms that for _The Silmarillion_ to remain unknown was for
      > > him "out of the question" (see the Introduction to _Unfinished
      > > Tales_). I agree with that fully; the thought that he might have
      > > followed the alternative that his father left him of leaving the
      > > work unpublished fills me with horror. To a large extent,
      > > _The Silmarillion_ was Tolkien's life work, and as far as I am
      > > concerned, there is no acceptable argument against its publication.
      >
      > Yes, absolutely. Too, the difficult nature of the challenge facing
      > Christopher Tolkien is probably almost impossible for any of us to fully
      > comprehend (except perhaps those few of us, like John, Wayne, Christina, and
      > others, who have actually poured over the manuscripts themselves).
      > Christopher described it this way (in the booklet, The Silmarillion: A Brief
      > Account of the Book and Its Making):
      >
      > "To bring it into publishable form was a task at once utterly absorbing and
      > alarming in its responsibility toward something that is unique. To decide
      > what form that should be was not easy; and for a time I worked toward a book
      > that would show something of this diversity, this unfinished and
      > many-branched growth. But it became clear to me that the result would be so
      > complex as to require much study for its comprehension; and I feared to
      > crush The Silmarillion beneath the weight of its own history. I set myself,
      > therefore, to work out a single text, by selection and arrangement." ([4])
      >
      > I think that says it pretty well. And I'm more than willing to accept a few
      > missteps in the "single text" for what we got in exchange. Of course, Randy
      > and probably everyone else here will agree with that. And in the end, we got
      > the first plan as well (i.e., the "book[s] that would show something of this
      > diversity"), in HoMe. I'm more than satisfied. :)
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dean Rowley
      I am ambiguous about this issue because of the nature of The Legendarium , one of the terms Tolkien himself used in referring to his work. If we were talking
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 18, 2008
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        I am ambiguous about this issue because of the nature of 'The Legendarium', one of the terms Tolkien himself used in referring to his work. If we were talking about a published work or series of works and C. Tolkien was publishing first drafts this objection would have more force. This is a review of the process by which an extremely talented sub-creator/artist developed a form of mythology over his lifetime. It is not the same as publishing random notes for individual books. If nothing else we see the (?) sub-creative (?) process at work.
         
        Dean Rowley



        ----- Original Message ----
        From: hoytrand <randy@...>
        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 6:01:22 PM
        Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien cartoon


        I feel that it is worth mentioning that publishing work posthumously
        (especially work that an author did not feel was fit for publication)
        is a seriously problematic endeavor. I don't just mean that it is
        difficult: there are very good objections *against* doing it at all.
        If I remember correctly, Christopher Tolkien later decided that
        publishing *The Silmarillion* in the form he did (without any frame)
        was not the right thing to do.

        Don't get me wrong; I am *very* grateful for what he has done. I fully
        admit that the cartoons most likely originated in an inappropriate
        ignorance and disrespect towards Christopher Tolkien's work. But maybe
        -- just maybe -- the cartoonist is much more thoughtful about the
        situation and cognizant of the fundamental problems inherent in this
        type of project. Even if not, I think the cartoons could provide a
        good opportunity for us to have a thoughtful discussion about those
        problems.

        Thanks,
        ~randy

        (This is my first post to the list, so please don't lambast me! Though
        I admit I got my flame-shield out of the cellar before writing this. :~)






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • hoytrand
        I think David Emerson s comment about posthumous works being clearly presented as original drafts and working papers intended for scholarly access is a very
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 18, 2008
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          I think David Emerson's comment about posthumous works being clearly
          presented as original drafts and working papers intended for scholarly
          access is a very helpful clarification; David Bratman said something
          similar. I'm much more familiar with posthumous publications like *The
          Silmarillion* -- where the editor polishes up the work and presents it
          as the author's own -- than with publications like *The History of
          Middle-Earth* series. Is this something that is done often? Am I only
          less familiar with them because these don't usually exist in
          mass-market paperback versions?

          Thanks,
          ~randy
        • David Emerson
          ... I remember debating with myself, when THE BOOK OF LOST TALES came out, whether I wanted to read variant versions and spoil the view I had of THE
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 18, 2008
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            >...Secondly, because one of Tolkien's greatest virtues as an
            >author is the richness of his creation, and this enables the reader to watch
            >how it was made. This is what Guy Kay would rather we not see, but the
            >magnitude of the work Tolkien put into it, a whole dimension beyond a slice
            >of the inner history as we know it from LOTR, is itself a grand creation.

            I remember debating with myself, when THE BOOK OF LOST TALES came out, whether I wanted to read variant versions and spoil the view I had of THE SILMARILLION, which I considered to be canon. I'm glad I went ahead and read all of the HOME volumes, because as many have pointed out since then, JRRT's vision of his own legendarium is so complex that it really needs to be seen in all its different forms and versions to comprehend fully.

            All right, so maybe I could have skipped the early drafts of LORD OF THE RINGS, but then I would've missed the delicious tidbits like Frodo and Strider originally being Bingo and Trotter.

            emerdavid

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