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Re: [mythsoc] Galadriel throws down the walls of Dol Guldur

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  • John Davis
    Is it possible that the throwing down of Dol Guldur might be seen as a healing of the land, a removal of the source that was poisoning Mirkwood, rather than an
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 18, 2008
      Is it possible that the throwing down of Dol Guldur might be seen as a
      healing of the land, a removal of the source that was poisoning Mirkwood,
      rather than an act of desctruction? If so, it would then be entirely in
      keeping with the use of the Three Rings to heal and preserve.

      John

      > The other comment that I wanted to make is that I doubt that Nenya would
      > have been much use to Galadriel in this >task. Elrond tells us that the
      > Three Rings "were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not
      > their power. Those >who made them did not desire strength or domination or
      > hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to >preserve all
      > things unstained." I don't think that Galadriel would have used Nenya to
      > throw down the walls of Dol >Guldur, even if the Three Rings' power had
      > not yet full dissipated.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...>
      To: <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:35 AM
      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Galadriel throws down the walls of Dol Guldur


      > John, I'm gald you responded to this, because I had meant to add my two
      > sense and I was going to make the same comparison that you did to Luthien
      > undoing the spells that bound the stones together of Sauron's tower on the
      > former Tol Sirion. However, there is significant editorial change that
      > was made to this passage. As written by Tolkien, in addition to demanding
      > the Sauron yield the mastery of the tower to her as the price for letting
      > him go, Luthien also demanded that he reveal to her "the spell that
      > bindeth stone to stone." Christopher Tolkien eliminated this statement
      > and instead added two paragraphs later the statement "and the spell was
      > loosed that bound stone to stone." Christopher concedes that "this
      > rearrangement was mistaken." (See The Lost Road, 300.)
      >
      > The other comment that I wanted to make is that I doubt that Nenya would
      > have been much use to Galadriel in this task. Elrond tells us that the
      > Three Rings "were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not
      > their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or
      > hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all
      > things unstained." I don't think that Galadriel would have used Nenya to
      > throw down the walls of Dol Guldur, even if the Three Rings' power had not
      > yet full dissipated. Rather, I think that she used her inate "magical"
      > powers. Tolkien makes some very interesting comments about the use of
      > magic in Letter 155, a draft of a letter to Naomi Mitchison that was not
      > included in the version sent to her (the sent version is letter 154, which
      > itself has some very interesting ideas).
      >
      > "I suppose that, for the purposes of the tale, some would say that there
      > is a latent distinction such as once was called the distinction between
      > magia and goeteia [this is defined in the O.E.D. as 'witchcraft or magic
      > performed by the invocation and employment of evil spirits; necromancy']
      > Galadriel speaks of the 'deceits of the Enemy'. Well enough but magia
      > could be, was, held good (per se), and goetia bad. Neither is, in this
      > tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use. Both
      > sides use both, but with different motives. The supremely bad motive is
      > (for this tale, since it specifically about it) domination of other 'free'
      > wills. The Enemy's operation are by no means all goetic deceits, but
      > 'magic' that produces real effects in the physical world. But his magia he
      > uses to bulldoze both people and things, and his goeteia to terrify and
      > subjugate. Their magia the Elves and Gandalf use (sparingly): a magia,
      > producing real results (like fire in a wet faggot) for specific beneficent
      > purposes. Their goetic effects are entirely artistic and not intended to
      > deceive: they never deceive Elves (but may deceive or bewilder unaware
      > Men) since the difference is to them as clear as the difference to us
      > between fiction, painting, and sculpture, and 'life'."
      >
      > Tolkien adds later in the passage that the "magic" that is used in his
      > Tale is not of the kind that can be developed through "lore" or spells,
      > but rather is an "inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as
      > such." As one of the most powerful of all of the Elves, Galadriel would
      > likely have this "inherent power" to a high degree. In my opinion,
      > Galadriel throwing down the walls of Dol Guldur was simply an example of
      > one of the primary Elves using magia for a practical purpose.
      >
      > The question that I have is: what is the "artistic" goetic effects of the
      > Elves that Tolkien is referring to?
    • Merlin DeTardo
      ...
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 18, 2008
        --- "Doug Kane" <dougkane@...> wrote:
        << John, I'm glad you responded to this, because I had meant to add
        my two sense and I was going to make the same comparison that you did
        to Luthien undoing the spells that bound the stones together of
        Sauron's tower on the former Tol Sirion. >>

        Sight and sound? Smell and touch?


        << [Quoting Tolkien] Gandalf's and the Elves' "goetic effects are
        entirely artistic and not intended to deceive: they never deceive
        Elves (but may deceive or bewilder unaware Men) since the difference
        is to them as clear as the difference to us between fiction,
        painting, and sculpture, and 'life'."...
        The question that I have is: what is the "artistic" goetic effect of
        the Elves that Tolkien is referring to? >>

        My guess is something like what Tolkien decribes in App. A.I.v, which
        says that Aragorn, seeing Arwen for the first time:

        "halted amazed, thinking that he had strayed into a dream, or else
        that he had received the gift of the Elf-minstrels, who can make the
        things of which they sing appear before the eyes of those that
        listen. For Aragorn had been singing a part of the Lay of Luthien
        which tells of the meeting of Luthien and Beren in the forest of
        Neldoreth."

        -Merlin DeTardo
      • Doug Kane
        Merlin DeTardo wrote:
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 19, 2008
          Merlin DeTardo wrote:

          << << [Quoting Tolkien] Gandalf's and the Elves' "goetic effects are
          entirely artistic and not intended to deceive: they never deceive
          Elves (but may deceive or bewilder unaware Men) since the difference
          is to them as clear as the difference to us between fiction,
          painting, and sculpture, and 'life'."...
          The question that I have is: what is the "artistic" goetic effect of
          the Elves that Tolkien is referring to? >>

          My guess is something like what Tolkien decribes in App. A.I.v, which
          says that Aragorn, seeing Arwen for the first time:

          "halted amazed, thinking that he had strayed into a dream, or else
          that he had received the gift of the Elf-minstrels, who can make the
          things of which they sing appear before the eyes of those that
          listen. For Aragorn had been singing a part of the Lay of Luthien
          which tells of the meeting of Luthien and Beren in the forest of
          Neldoreth." >>

          Ah, good suggestion, Merlin!

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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