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  • John D Rateliff
    ... Speaking of which, and ignoring all the cheap sneers at Gore, this reminds me of an interesting point in LITERARY SWORDSMEN & SORCERERS where de Camp asked
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 11 11:04 AM
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      On Apr 10, 2008, at 10:34 PM, Merlin DeTardo wrote:
      > More than 25 years ago, Paul Kocher likened the colds of the Witch-
      > king and Morgoth to glacial epochs.

      Speaking of which, and ignoring all the cheap sneers at Gore, this
      reminds me of an interesting point in LITERARY SWORDSMEN & SORCERERS
      where de Camp asked Tolkien why, if it was based on Europe many
      thousands of years ago, his Middle-earth lacked the megafauna of that
      era. According to de Camp, the two men agreed it was because "Middle-
      earth reflected Tolkien's memories of the English countryside in his
      boyhood", when except for deer "large wild animals had been extinct
      in Britain for centuries".

      --JDR
    • David Emerson
      ... Does the oliphaunt fall under the category of megafauna ? emerdavid ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 11 11:21 AM
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        >... de Camp asked Tolkien why, if it was based on Europe many
        >thousands of years ago, his Middle-earth lacked the megafauna of that
        >era.

        Does the oliphaunt fall under the category of "megafauna"?

        emerdavid

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      • James Jones
        ... It does but I always got the impression that the oliphaunt in Middle Earth, much like an elephant to someone who lived in Europe, was something exotic.
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 11 11:29 AM
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          --- David Emerson <emerdavid@...> wrote:

          > >... de Camp asked Tolkien why, if it was based on
          > Europe many
          > >thousands of years ago, his Middle-earth lacked the
          > megafauna of that
          > >era.
          >
          > Does the oliphaunt fall under the category of
          > "megafauna"?
          >

          It does but I always got the impression that the
          oliphaunt in Middle Earth, much like an elephant to
          someone who lived in Europe, was something exotic.

          Actually, it's interesting because if you look at a
          map of Middle Earth, pretty much everything east of
          the Iron Hills and south of Gondor fell into the realm
          of the exotic and fantastic, that being the Harad and
          Rhun.

          James J.

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        • John D Rateliff
          ... Yes indeed; it s clearly both some form of mastodon or mammoth AND the beastiary elephant at one and the same time. But it s clearly long since vanished
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 11 12:07 PM
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            On Apr 11, 2008, at 11:21 AM, David Emerson wrote:
            >> ... de Camp asked Tolkien why, if it was based on Europe many
            >> thousands of years ago, his Middle-earth lacked the megafauna of
            >> that era.
            > Does the oliphaunt fall under the category of "megafauna"?

            Yes indeed; it's clearly both some form of mastodon or mammoth AND
            the beastiary elephant at one and the same time. But it's clearly
            long since vanished from the North-West, remembered only from
            traveller's tales like Sam's rhyme.
            It's worth pointing out, though, that de Camp seems to forget
            about the wolves, which can get pretty big (especially in Middle-
            earth!). And of course if we include The Hobbit we get huge bears as
            well. But most of the lands the Fellowship crosses seem to lack
            anything bigger than a fox, which is entirely appropriate to England
            in the last century or so but not like the older world; I assume from
            all the bear-baiting that there were still wild bears in England in
            Shakespeare's time, and wolves lasted until sometime in the medieval
            era (both are certainly well-represented in the continental folk-
            tales of the Grimms and Perrault).
            --JDR
          • Carl F. Hostetter
            ... There is nothing cheap about them, sirrah! They cost $12.50 each -- just like the mercury-laden fluorescent light-bulbs Congress is mandating -- PLUS a
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 11 3:05 PM
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              On Apr 11, 2008, at 2:04 PM, John D Rateliff wrote:
              > all the cheap sneers at Gore
              >

              There is nothing cheap about them, sirrah! They cost $12.50 each --
              just like the mercury-laden fluorescent light-bulbs Congress is
              mandating -- PLUS a mandatory $20 carbon-credit per pack of 6!
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