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Re: [mythsoc] Re: The Hobbit's relation to the legendarium, redux

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  • John D Rateliff
    ... Yes; I overlooked that part* when discussing the connections between Thorin s people and the Indrafangs of Belegost. *I assume you mean the passage in the
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 15, 2008
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      On Mar 13, 2008, at 7:41 PM, William Cloud Hicklin wrote:
      > And that would accord with the passing stage wherein Tolkien
      > identified Moria with ancient Nogrod.

      Yes; I overlooked that part* when discussing the connections between
      Thorin's people and the Indrafangs of Belegost.

      *I assume you mean the passage in the 1937 Quenta Silm. (HME.V.
      274)?--how I love the HME Index volume.

      Many thanks for drawing this to my attention.

      --JDR
    • William Cloud Hicklin
      ... stage wherein Tolkien ... the connections between ... Quenta Silm. (HME.V. ... Yes, especially when coupled with notes in the August 1939 papers (HME VI)
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 18, 2008
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        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff
        <sacnoth@...> wrote:
        >
        > On Mar 13, 2008, at 7:41 PM, William Cloud
        Hicklin wrote:
        > > And that would accord with the passing
        stage wherein Tolkien
        > > identified Moria with ancient Nogrod.
        >
        > Yes; I overlooked that part* when discussing
        the connections between
        > Thorin's people and the Indrafangs of Belegost.
        >
        > *I assume you mean the passage in the 1937
        Quenta Silm. (HME.V.
        > 274)?--how I love the HME Index volume.
        >
        > Many thanks for drawing this to my attention.
        >


        Yes, especially when coupled with notes in the
        August 1939 papers (HME VI) which create the
        strong impression that Moria was to be reached
        by first crossing the Mountains and then
        journeying southward, just like Nogrod. Given
        T's vacillations as to which Mansions the
        Longbeards were associated with, it all makes
        sense.

        JDR has made a very convincing case that The
        Hobbit began set in something resembling the
        geography of the Silmarillion, with the
        Erydwethion and Sirion more-or-less as placed,
        with Mirkwood/Taur-nu-Fuin beyond. But I
        suspect there was also an intermediate stage,
        where Tolkien realized that the Long Lake-Erebor
        geography didn't fit at all, and so the
        Mountains became in his mind the Ered Luin, and
        marked the "Edge of the Wild," the terra
        incognito beyond the theater of the legendarium.
        Even Thorin's callig Bilbo "child of the kindly
        West," i.e. 'civilised' Beleriand, would fit
        this hypothesis.
      • William Cloud Hicklin
        Addendum: It s worth noting that Hadhodrond and Nogrod are just alternate Sindarin translations of Dwarf- mine or Dwarrowdelf, although T covered his tracks by
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 18, 2008
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          Addendum:

          It's worth noting that Hadhodrond and Nogrod are
          just alternate Sindarin translations of Dwarf-
          mine or Dwarrowdelf, although T covered his
          tracks by re-glossing Nogrod as Hollowbold.
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