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Re: The Hobbit's relation to the legendarium, redux

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  • William Cloud Hicklin
    ... with any confidence on ... Bilbo s adventures ... 251) if you assume that ... Blue Mountains are one ... Bilbo s book (the Grey ... the remnants of the
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 13 7:41 PM
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      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff
      <sacnoth@...> wrote:


      > I don't think Bag End can be identified
      with any confidence on
      > the Ambarkanta maps, but the general region of
      Bilbo's adventures
      > fits very well onto Maps IV & V (HME.IV.249 &
      251) if you assume that
      > at that time the northernmost reaches of the
      Blue Mountains are one
      > and the same with the Misty Mountains of
      Bilbo's book (the Grey
      > Mountains and Iron Hills are very obviously
      the remnants of the Iron
      > Mountains after the sundering of Thangorodrim
      by the Valar). Later,
      > of course, Tolkien distinguished them and
      placed the whole of the
      > newly-invented Eriador between them.

      And that would accord with the passing stage
      wherein Tolkien identified Moria with ancient
      Nogrod.
    • John D Rateliff
      ... Yes; I overlooked that part* when discussing the connections between Thorin s people and the Indrafangs of Belegost. *I assume you mean the passage in the
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 15 3:30 PM
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        On Mar 13, 2008, at 7:41 PM, William Cloud Hicklin wrote:
        > And that would accord with the passing stage wherein Tolkien
        > identified Moria with ancient Nogrod.

        Yes; I overlooked that part* when discussing the connections between
        Thorin's people and the Indrafangs of Belegost.

        *I assume you mean the passage in the 1937 Quenta Silm. (HME.V.
        274)?--how I love the HME Index volume.

        Many thanks for drawing this to my attention.

        --JDR
      • William Cloud Hicklin
        ... stage wherein Tolkien ... the connections between ... Quenta Silm. (HME.V. ... Yes, especially when coupled with notes in the August 1939 papers (HME VI)
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 18 9:58 AM
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          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff
          <sacnoth@...> wrote:
          >
          > On Mar 13, 2008, at 7:41 PM, William Cloud
          Hicklin wrote:
          > > And that would accord with the passing
          stage wherein Tolkien
          > > identified Moria with ancient Nogrod.
          >
          > Yes; I overlooked that part* when discussing
          the connections between
          > Thorin's people and the Indrafangs of Belegost.
          >
          > *I assume you mean the passage in the 1937
          Quenta Silm. (HME.V.
          > 274)?--how I love the HME Index volume.
          >
          > Many thanks for drawing this to my attention.
          >


          Yes, especially when coupled with notes in the
          August 1939 papers (HME VI) which create the
          strong impression that Moria was to be reached
          by first crossing the Mountains and then
          journeying southward, just like Nogrod. Given
          T's vacillations as to which Mansions the
          Longbeards were associated with, it all makes
          sense.

          JDR has made a very convincing case that The
          Hobbit began set in something resembling the
          geography of the Silmarillion, with the
          Erydwethion and Sirion more-or-less as placed,
          with Mirkwood/Taur-nu-Fuin beyond. But I
          suspect there was also an intermediate stage,
          where Tolkien realized that the Long Lake-Erebor
          geography didn't fit at all, and so the
          Mountains became in his mind the Ered Luin, and
          marked the "Edge of the Wild," the terra
          incognito beyond the theater of the legendarium.
          Even Thorin's callig Bilbo "child of the kindly
          West," i.e. 'civilised' Beleriand, would fit
          this hypothesis.
        • William Cloud Hicklin
          Addendum: It s worth noting that Hadhodrond and Nogrod are just alternate Sindarin translations of Dwarf- mine or Dwarrowdelf, although T covered his tracks by
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 18 10:09 AM
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            Addendum:

            It's worth noting that Hadhodrond and Nogrod are
            just alternate Sindarin translations of Dwarf-
            mine or Dwarrowdelf, although T covered his
            tracks by re-glossing Nogrod as Hollowbold.
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