Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Population Levels in Middle-earth

Expand Messages
  • John Davis
    Hi, I m looking for information on population levels for the various races in Middle-earth at the start of the War of the Ring. (Or at least, NW Middle-earth -
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 4, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi,

      I'm looking for information on population levels for the various races in
      Middle-earth at the start of the War of the Ring. (Or at least, NW
      Middle-earth - the usual map.)

      Fonstad has a few words to say about population in her Atlas, but nothing
      close to specific.

      Can anyone help?

      Thanks,

      John

      _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

      email: mcxg46@...
      web: www.doganddrone.co.uk
      web: www.enchantedisle.co.uk
      _ _ _ _ _ _ __
    • John D Rateliff
      Hi John Nobody really knows, so any information you get is simply somebody s best guess. I suggest you either work out numbers you re comfortable with for
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 6, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi John
        Nobody really knows, so any information you get is simply
        somebody's best guess.
        I suggest you either work out numbers you're comfortable with for
        yourself (that way you'll at least know the rationale behind the
        results), or go online and search until you find figures that seem
        about right to you (just typing "Gondor" and "population" into a
        search engine shd be enough to get you started). But when using the
        results be sure to keep in mind just how speculative they are.
        Sorry not to be more helpful.
        --John R.


        On Mar 4, 2008, at 1:52 AM, John Davis wrote:
        > Hi,
        >
        > I'm looking for information on population levels for the various
        > races in
        > Middle-earth at the start of the War of the Ring. (Or at least, NW
        > Middle-earth - the usual map.)
        >
        > Fonstad has a few words to say about population in her Atlas, but
        > nothing
        > close to specific.
        >
        > Can anyone help?
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > John
        >
        > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
        >
        > email: mcxg46@...
        > web: www.doganddrone.co.uk
        > web: www.enchantedisle.co.uk
        > _ _ _ _ _ _ __
      • David Bratman
        ... That s because there is nothing close to specific. Fonstad studied this as intently as anyone, and if her information is vague, that s because vagueness
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 6, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          On Mar 4, 2008, at 1:52 AM, John Davis wrote:
          > I'm looking for information on population levels for the various
          > races in
          > Middle-earth at the start of the War of the Ring. (Or at least, NW
          > Middle-earth - the usual map.)
          >
          > Fonstad has a few words to say about population in her Atlas, but
          > nothing close to specific.

          That's because there is nothing close to specific. Fonstad studied this as intently as anyone, and if her information is vague, that's because vagueness is all we have. The Middle-earth census reports are not something findable by just looking hard enough.
        • Sarah Beach
          My suggestion would be to look up medieval population numbers for, say, the British Isles as a starting point. When you realize how sparce the population was,
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 6, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            My suggestion would be to look up medieval population numbers for,
            say, the British Isles as a starting point. When you realize how
            sparce the population was, you get a better idea of how devastating
            the loss of a warrior and leader like Boromir could be to a people.

            But I don't think you're going to find many explicit numbers in
            Tolkien's writings themselves.


            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "John Davis" <mcxg46@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi,
            >
            > I'm looking for information on population levels for the various
            races in
            > Middle-earth at the start of the War of the Ring. (Or at least, NW
            > Middle-earth - the usual map.)
            >
            > Fonstad has a few words to say about population in her Atlas, but
            nothing
            > close to specific.
            >
            > Can anyone help?
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > John
            >
            > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
            >
            > email: mcxg46@...
            > web: www.doganddrone.co.uk
            > web: www.enchantedisle.co.uk
            > _ _ _ _ _ _ __
            >
          • Margaret Dean
            ... My husband, who s done some research on medieval population and economics (mostly for gaming purposes) tends to say that population levels in Middle-earth
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 6, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Sarah Beach wrote:
              >
              > My suggestion would be to look up medieval population numbers for,
              > say, the British Isles as a starting point. When you realize how
              > sparce the population was, you get a better idea of how devastating
              > the loss of a warrior and leader like Boromir could be to a people.

              My husband, who's done some research on medieval population and
              economics (mostly for gaming purposes) tends to say that
              population levels in Middle-earth are "way too low". Medieval
              Europe simply didn't have the large uninhabited tracts that
              Middle-earth does, at least in the Third Age.


              --Margaret Dean
              <margdean@...>
            • Jason Fisher
              ... If we re going to play the game, let s at least not mix up the rules. Assuming Middle-earth to be a real place and time, it was long, long before the
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 6, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                > --- Margaret Dean wrote: ---
                > My husband, who's done some research on medieval
                > population and economics (mostly for gaming purposes)
                > tends to say that population levels in Middle-earth are
                > "way too low". Medieval Europe simply didn't have the
                > large uninhabited tracts that Middle-earth does, at least
                > in the Third Age.

                If we're going to play the game, let's at least not mix up the rules. Assuming Middle-earth to be a real place and time, it was long, long before the Middle Ages. Some 5,000 years earlier, I believe. Applying Medieval population figures to the Third Age of Middle-earth wouldn't necessarily be accurate at all. Of course, the entire project is purely hypothetical, isn't it? Choose any population figures you like -- there's nothing to contradict you. :)

                Jason




                The world is but a word.
                Were it all yours to give it in a breath,
                How quickly were it gone.
                � William Shakespeare, Timon of Athens

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • John Davis
                Hi, Middle-earth of the Third Age is, of course, long before Medieval Europe. But on the other hand the technological level of the societies (at least Gondor)
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 7, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi,

                  Middle-earth of the Third Age is, of course, long before Medieval Europe.
                  But on the other hand the technological level of the societies (at least
                  Gondor) seem roughly equivalent. That said there has of course, by the War
                  of the Ring, been centuries of conflict, Arnor's destruction by Angmar, and
                  perhaps most destructive of all the plague. So perhaps it might be seen as
                  equivalent to Europe had the plagues of the 14th Century been even more
                  destructive? Also, whilst Gondor might be compared to mid-Europe (France,
                  Italy, etc.), might Arnor be likened to North Europe, or even the Russian
                  wilds?

                  I have managed to find an essay by Martinez (I think), who posits population
                  levels based on army sizes, both those put into the field and those various
                  leaders said that they had hoped for. Though of course this itself contains
                  many variables, such as what proportion of a population might reasonably be
                  expected to fight in different circumstances, the average life-span of the
                  people, etc. And I disagree with his thoughts on rural population levels in
                  the Shire. Still, it is a place to start...

                  Thanks for all your thoughts,

                  John
                • Merlin DeTardo
                  ...
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 7, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    ---Margaret Dean <margdean@...> wrote:
                    << My husband, who's done some research on medieval population and
                    economics (mostly for gaming purposes) tends to say that population
                    levels in Middle-earth are "way too low". Medieval Europe simply
                    didn't have the large uninhabited tracts that Middle-earth does, at
                    least in the Third Age. >>

                    I've read similar arguments online*, that even a very small surviving
                    population of Men and Elves at the end of the Second Age should yield
                    much higher populations by the end of the Third Age than Tolkien
                    presents, and so:

                    "The only solution is this: there is some major population sink that
                    is killing off most of the races of Middle-earth as fast or faster
                    than they can repopulate, at least in certain areas, and everywhere
                    at enough of a rate so that the places where population is growing do
                    not colonize everywhere else through migration."

                    *http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?
                    post=68466#68466

                    -Merlin DeTardo
                  • Larry Swain
                    Some areas of Middle Earth are fairly populated. Gondor is far more populated than we see, though there are a good number of hints. Rohan likewise, and
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 7, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Some areas of Middle Earth are fairly populated. Gondor is far more populated than we see, though there are a good number of hints. Rohan likewise, and Dunland certainly has population enough to harry Rohan and be Saruman's suppliers to the Shire. We hear of villages along the eves of Mirkwood, and there are 3 towns around Bree hill (Bree itself, Arcet, Chetwood), much less the towns of the Shire. And the Dunedain live somewhere! And of course, Boromir says he asked directions to find Rivendell, so he had to ask more than in Rohan and Bree, I would think. So the North seems more or less reletively unpopulated, but does have population centers, whereas teh south seems to be what I would expect.

                      Larry Swain
                      >
                      >
                      > ---Margaret Dean <margdean@...> wrote:
                      > << My husband, who's done some research on medieval population and
                      > economics (mostly for gaming purposes) tends to say that population
                      > levels in Middle-earth are "way too low". Medieval Europe simply
                      > didn't have the large uninhabited tracts that Middle-earth does, at
                      > least in the Third Age. >>
                      >
                      > I've read similar arguments online*, that even a very small surviving
                      > population of Men and Elves at the end of the Second Age should yield
                      > much higher populations by the end of the Third Age than Tolkien
                      > presents, and so:
                      >
                      > "The only solution is this: there is some major population sink that
                      > is killing off most of the races of Middle-earth as fast or faster
                      > than they can repopulate, at least in certain areas, and everywhere
                      > at enough of a rate so that the places where population is growing do
                      > not colonize everywhere else through migration."
                      >
                      > *http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?
                      > post=68466#68466
                      >
                      > -Merlin DeTardo
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      >


                      --
                      _______________________________________________
                      Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way:
                      Download Opera 9 at http://www.opera.com

                      Powered by Outblaze
                    • Merlin DeTardo
                      ...
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 7, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        ---"Larry Swain" <theswain@...> wrote:
                        << Some areas of Middle-earth are fairly populated. Gondor is far
                        more populated than we see, though there are a good number of hints.
                        Rohan likewise, and Dunland certainly has population enough to harry
                        Rohan and be Saruman's suppliers to the Shire. >>

                        Good point about Dunland, though Aragorn says, "I have never been in
                        Isengard, but I have journeyed in this land, and I know well the
                        empty countries that lie between Rohan and the Shire. Neither goods
                        nor folk have passed that way for many a long year, not openly." His
                        Rangers on the Shire's southern border must have been careless, if
                        they haven't noticed any traffic going south from Sarn Ford.

                        And Gondor, or at least Minas Tirith, is less than it was:

                        "Yet it was in truth falling year by year into decay; and already it
                        lacked half the men that could have dwelt at ease there. In every
                        street they passed some great house or court over whose doors and
                        arched gates were carved many fair letters of strange and ancient
                        shapes: names Pippin guessed of great men and kindreds that had once
                        dwelt there; and yet now they were silent, and no footsteps rang on
                        their wide pavements, nor voice was heard in their halls, nor any
                        face looked out from door or empty window."

                        -Merlin DeTardo
                      • WendellWag@aol.com
                        In a message dated 3/7/2008 4:13:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, mcxg46@dial.pipex.com writes: Middle-earth of the Third Age is, of course, long before Medieval
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 7, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          In a message dated 3/7/2008 4:13:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                          mcxg46@... writes:

                          Middle-earth of the Third Age is, of course, long before Medieval Europe.
                          But on the other hand the technological level of the societies (at least
                          Gondor) seem roughly equivalent.
                          The Shire appears to be, culturally, at the level of England in about 1750.
                          One of the few things I like about Jackson's movies was that the Shire
                          looked right. It would have been easy to make all of Middle-earth look
                          generic-fantasy-novel medieval, but in fact various aspects of it seem to be anywhere
                          between Dark Ages and late Enlightenment.

                          Wendell Wagner



                          **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
                          Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Larry Swain
                          ... Merlin, You make two errors here. First, you deemphasize the openly , when it is quite plain to Aragorn as he says this while smoking Hornblower pipeweed
                          Message 12 of 15 , Mar 8, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            >
                            > ---"Larry Swain" <theswain@...> wrote:
                            > << Some areas of Middle-earth are fairly populated. Gondor is far
                            > more populated than we see, though there are a good number of hints.
                            > Rohan likewise, and Dunland certainly has population enough to harry
                            > Rohan and be Saruman's suppliers to the Shire. >>
                            >
                            > Good point about Dunland, though Aragorn says, "I have never been in
                            > Isengard, but I have journeyed in this land, and I know well the
                            > empty countries that lie between Rohan and the Shire. Neither goods
                            > nor folk have passed that way for many a long year, not openly."

                            Merlin,

                            You make two errors here. First, you deemphasize the "openly", when it is quite plain to Aragorn as he says this while smoking Hornblower pipeweed that very obviously came from the South Farthing, the 1417 crop too it would seem, events in the story taking place in early 1419 at this point. You also neglect the next sentence: "Saruman had secret dealings with someone in the Shire, I guess." Quite plainly Saruman has agents, and I doubt he was sending orcs to the Shire (in fact we are told elsewhere that they were Dunlanders)to deal business or to ferry pipeweed and other goods to Isengard. So there may not be much population between Isengard and the Shire, but there isn't that much distance either. 4 days on horseback following a road. There were certainly places in Ancient and Medieval Europe which had such distance between population centers, particularly in regions that had not been part of the Roman Empire.

                            Let's look a bit further: Farmer Cotton tells our heroes in "The Scouring of the Shire" that Lotho had been selling away pipeweed for a few years, and that the autumn of 4018 he sent away "loads of stuff", enough that supplies actually ran short in the Shire. To send away that kind of volume takes a large number of personnel (much less the few hundreds of "ruffians" sent north, a small tally of Saruman's total human forces, themselves only a part of the population to draw on (women and children, the too old or too young to fight, others).

                            And a bit further: In the Prancing Pony chapter we see refugees coming into Bree, not a small group and not the only group: they in fact complain of such refugees fleeing the "troubles away south". Well, our choices are limited in terms of where these folk are coming from: Dunland, Rohan, or Gondor. I think we can eliminate Rohan from consideration: it just isn't the way of the Rohirrim. Gondor? Well, the troubles in Ithilien certainly would create refugees, but would those who had lived in the Shadow so long leave Gondor and Rohan and go north? Possibly some of them. Enough to make the crowds of refugees indicated in that chapter and again mentioned on the return journey? Open to interpretation I suppose, but at best I can only think that this would make only a part of those running from troubled times in the south. Other Gondorans, esp those on the West of the White Mtns haven't really been affected yet, and even if they were, it is unlikely that they would be coming up the Greenway. That leaves Dunlanders. Boromir also says he sought Imladris for 110 days and that many had heard of it, but few knew where it lay. Other than his father, the librarians at Gondor, who else would he be asking in his 110 day journey than people and pubs encountered on the way that we otherwise do not hear about? Indications are that while between the Misty Mtns (or the northern arm of the White Mtns) and the Shire, nothing remains of Arnor save places such as the Shire, Bree, Fornost (if that is where the remains of Aragorn's folk live), and that there are a few other places hinted at, but the south seems fairly well populated.

                            His
                            > Rangers on the Shire's southern border must have been careless, if
                            > they haven't noticed any traffic going south from Sarn Ford.

                            Indeed, but such seems to be the case.

                            >
                            > And Gondor, or at least Minas Tirith, is less than it was:
                            >
                            > "Yet it was in truth falling year by year into decay; and already it
                            > lacked half the men that could have dwelt at ease there. In every
                            > street they passed some great house or court over whose doors and
                            > arched gates were carved many fair letters of strange and ancient
                            > shapes: names Pippin guessed of great men and kindreds that had once
                            > dwelt there; and yet now they were silent, and no footsteps rang on
                            > their wide pavements, nor voice was heard in their halls, nor any
                            > face looked out from door or empty window."

                            Much like Rome or London in Late Antiquity or the early Medieval period......

                            Larry Swain

                            --
                            _______________________________________________
                            Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way:
                            Download Opera 9 at http://www.opera.com

                            Powered by Outblaze
                          • Merlin DeTardo
                            ... I certainly welcome corrections -- thank you, Larry. I apologize for any confusion. I did not mean to argue that
                            Message 13 of 15 , Mar 8, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              ---"Larry Swain" <theswain@...> wrote:
                              << Merlin, You make two errors here. >>

                              I certainly welcome corrections -- thank you, Larry. I apologize for
                              any confusion. I did not mean to argue that there was no trade
                              between Dunland and the Shire: as you point out, there obviously is,
                              at least between Saruman and Lotho. Rather I meant that Tolkien may
                              be inconsistent in his presentation of that trade when he has Aragorn
                              say here that there he is unaware of open movement of goods or people
                              between those lands. Does this mean that entire waggon-loads were
                              sneaked past Aragorn's Rangers (who guard Sarn Ford), or that the
                              Rangers knew of *secret* shipments, but they never bothered to
                              investigate them?

                              You also make good points that the refugees in Bree and the details
                              of Boromir's journey suggest populated lands in southern Eriador, but
                              again, Aragorn here refers to "empty countries" along the road north
                              to the Shire from Rohan -- is that another inconsistency?

                              A few additional notes:

                              << the 1417 crop too it would seem, events in the story taking place
                              in early 1419 at this point >>

                              You are correct: Pippin confirms that date is stamped on the barrels.

                              << So there may not be much population between Isengard and the
                              Shire, but there isn't that much distance either. 4 days on
                              horseback following a road. >>

                              That's a fast horse. Checking the _LotR_ map, it looks to be more
                              than 400 miles in a straight line from Isengard to Sarn Ford, and the
                              road bends a little. It takes Gandalf more than 4 days on Shadowfax,
                              racing to find Frodo before the Ringwraiths do.

                              << the autumn of 4018 he sent away "loads of stuff", enough that
                              supplies actually ran short in the Shire. >>

                              You mean 3018 (or 1418).

                              -Merlin DeTardo
                            • Larry Swain
                              ... Or that Aragorn isn t omniscient? Does this mean that entire waggon-loads were ... Do they guard Sarn Ford, and what do they guard against? Servants of
                              Message 14 of 15 , Mar 10, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                >
                                >
                                > ---"Larry Swain" <theswain@...> wrote:
                                > << Merlin, You make two errors here. >>
                                >
                                > I certainly welcome corrections -- thank you, Larry. I apologize for
                                > any confusion. I did not mean to argue that there was no trade
                                > between Dunland and the Shire: as you point out, there obviously is,
                                > at least between Saruman and Lotho. Rather I meant that Tolkien may
                                > be inconsistent in his presentation of that trade when he has Aragorn
                                > say here that there he is unaware of open movement of goods or people
                                > between those lands.

                                Or that Aragorn isn't omniscient?

                                Does this mean that entire waggon-loads were
                                > sneaked past Aragorn's Rangers (who guard Sarn Ford), or that the
                                > Rangers knew of *secret* shipments, but they never bothered to
                                > investigate them?

                                Do they guard Sarn Ford, and what do they guard against? Servants of Sauron, not servants of Saruman, or even men claiming to be from Bree (perhaps) trading with the hobbits. Until Gandalf returns in late September after the Nazgul have already been to Sarn Ford and scattered the Rangers there, there is no reason to question or bother Saruman, who was trusted and head of the White Council, from purchasing goods in the Shire and no reason to send reports to Aragorn about it: they are after all on the watch for SAURON's servants entering the Shire, not people leaving the shire with pipeweed and taters. In one of the versions of the Hunt for the Ring, Saruman knows of the Ranger's guard on the Ford and I can only imagine it is because some of the Dunlanders were stopped.

                                > You also make good points that the refugees in Bree and the details
                                > of Boromir's journey suggest populated lands in southern Eriador, but
                                > again, Aragorn here refers to "empty countries" along the road north
                                > to the Shire from Rohan -- is that another inconsistency?

                                The lands are wide, plenty for kingdoms between Bree and the Isen Gandalf says. There can both be population centers, small most likely, and be empty lands. I hail from Montana originally and worked in Alaska on fishing boats for some time, and on farms in North Dakota. In all three places there are wide and empty lands for miles where you will not see another human being, days worth of travel on foot or horseback. Yet there are towns and cities. I imagine something like that: travel for days and not see a soul, but the occasional village, esp. toward the south, or toward the places that were larger population centers in Arnor.

                                > << So there may not be much population between Isengard and the
                                > Shire, but there isn't that much distance either. 4 days on
                                > horseback following a road. >>
                                >
                                > That's a fast horse. Checking the _LotR_ map, it looks to be more
                                > than 400 miles in a straight line from Isengard to Sarn Ford, and the
                                > road bends a little. It takes Gandalf more than 4 days on Shadowfax,
                                > racing to find Frodo before the Ringwraiths do.

                                It takes both Gandalf and the 9 four days. The 9 cross the Isen on Sept 18 and cross Sarn Ford the evening of Sept. 22, stopping to make plans, split up, and question travellers on the road and study maps. Gandalf crosses the Isen on the 24th and Sarn Ford on the 28th. It would appear that the horses of the 9 are Mearas as well, or Gandalf didn't push Shadowfax all out on his way north, but did so after his chat with the Gaffer on the 29.

                                > << the autumn of 4018 he sent away "loads of stuff", enough that
                                > supplies actually ran short in the Shire. >>
                                >
                                > You mean 3018 (or 1418).

                                I do.


                                --
                                _______________________________________________
                                Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way:
                                Download Opera 9 at http://www.opera.com

                                Powered by Outblaze
                              • Merlin DeTardo
                                ...
                                Message 15 of 15 , Mar 10, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  ---"Larry Swain" <theswain@...> wrote:
                                  << Do they guard Sarn Ford, and what do they guard against? Servants
                                  of Sauron, not servants of Saruman, or even men claiming to be from
                                  Bree (perhaps) trading with the hobbits. >>

                                  According to "The Hunt for the Ring" notes (HR), and
                                  perhaps "Bombadil Goes Boating", they do guard the ford. And I agree
                                  with you that they were guarding it against known enemies, not
                                  traders or even Saruman's men. Tolkien writes in HR in _Unfinished
                                  Tales_ that Saruman, gathering information about the Shire, employed
                                  Hobbits under the direction of Men ("of Dunlendish origin", as you
                                  previously noted), and that the Rangers "did not actually refuse
                                  entry to the servants of Saruman". Since Tolkien describes the
                                  Rangers as "suspicious" of these men, I would have expected them to
                                  share their uneasiness with their leader. However, Aragorn says in
                                  the Prancing Pony that he "went away on a journey of [his] own" after
                                  meeting Gandalf in May, and that after his return he was "watching
                                  the East Road anxiously", they may never have reported to him.

                                  And perhaps that timing is what explains what I thought strange:
                                  Aragorn's apparent belief that there is no open travel along the road
                                  from the Isen to the Brandwyine. I return to the line by Aragorn
                                  that started our discussion: "I know well the empty countries that
                                  lie between Rohan and the Shire. Neither goods nor folk have passed
                                  that way for many a long year, not openly. Saruman had secret
                                  dealings with someone in the Shire, I guess." If Aragorn's Rangers
                                  had obeserved "secret" travel, I think they would have told him. And
                                  we know from HR that his men had observed open trading. I suppose
                                  Tolkien could have meant for readers (remembering the southern
                                  travelers at Bree) to take that statement as an empty boast, one of
                                  Aragorn's flawed moments -- certainly it would not be his only
                                  mistake. But probably, to take up your helpful ideas, it just means
                                  that trade started up again only after he had last been on the south
                                  end of the Shire.

                                  Thanks also for the further thoughts on how to resolve
                                  Aragorn's "empty countries" with the other evidence of life in
                                  Enedwaith and Minhiriath, and also for your note about the Black
                                  Riders needing only four days to go from the the Crossings of Isen to
                                  Sarn Ford. I had overlooked the latter in Appendix B, and likewise
                                  misread that section when I wrote that it took Gandalf "more than
                                  four days" to make that journey. In fact, it seems to have taken
                                  Gandalf three days and nineteen hours, according to the excerpts of
                                  HR that were published in Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull's _The
                                  Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion_. According to that material
                                  (pp. 251-2), the distance between those points is 475 miles --if my
                                  math is correct-- and Gandalf makes the journey between 7 a.m on Sep.
                                  24 and 2 a.m. on Sep. 28.

                                  -Merlin DeTardo
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.