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RE: [mythsoc] Re: two queries

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  • Mike Foster
    .but at the top of the Roll in all accounts stand the names of Captains Meriadoc and Peregrin. Frodo had been in the battle, but he had not drawn sword, and
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 13, 2008
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      ".but at the top of the Roll in all accounts stand the names of Captains
      Meriadoc and Peregrin.
      "Frodo had been in the battle, but he had not drawn sword, and his chief
      part had been to prevent the hobbits, in their wrath at their losses,
      from slaying those of their enemies who threw down their weapons."

      p. 365, "The Scouring of the Shire," _The Return of the King_,
      Ballantine paperback edition.

      Conclude what you will; the fact is that Frodo's heroism is finally not
      that of a warrior. Why Tolkien revised his story thus is conjecture;
      that he did so is fact.

      _Pax vobiscum_
      Mike

      -----Original Message-----
      From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of David Bratman
      Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 6:53 PM
      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: two queries

      Tolkien had already written Frodo renouncing the carrying of weapons in
      Mordor when he drafted the initial versions of the Scouring in which
      Frodo fights Sharky in single combat and does other improbable things.
      It took Tolkien's conscious a while to catch on to what his subconscious
      was doing.

      Lynn Maudlin <lynnmaudlin@ <mailto:lynnmaudlin%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com>
      wrote:

      >--- In mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
      "Mike Foster" <mafoster@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> For what it's worth, in the early drafts of the final chapters of
      _The
      >> Lord of the Rings_, narrating the events leading up to the scouring
      of
      >> the Shire, many of the defiant words and deeds are Frodo's. In
      >> revision, Tolkien transferred these to Pippin and more often Merry.
      >>
      >> --MAF
      >
      >I don't know what you expect us to conclude from that, Mike - my own
      >conclusion is that Frodo's journey was not that of a warrior and his
      >sacrifice was not made with a sword. But I don't think that means
      >Frodo didn't support Merry and Pippin in *their* call to be brave
      >battling hobbits--



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Bratman
      Mike - You write in a tough fact-citing tone that sounds as if you re disputing something that I said, but I cannot figure out what it might be. Frodo s odd
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 13, 2008
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        Mike -

        You write in a tough fact-citing tone that sounds as if you're disputing something that I said, but I cannot figure out what it might be.

        Frodo's odd and inappropriate behavior was, as I said, in the first draft, not the final draft. And then, as I wrote, "It took Tolkien's conscious a while to catch on to what his subconscious was doing." But when he figured it out, he wrote the excellent final text that you quote. Now isn't that marvelous, perhaps even more so than if he'd gotten it right the first time?

        "Conclude what you will, the fact is ..." you write, but I never said otherwise. "That he revised [the story] is fact," you also write, as indeed it is fact, and I took the liberty of assuming readers of this list would know that, without my having to shake the Ballantine paperback edition of _The Return of the King_ at them.

        David B.

        -----Original Message-----
        >From: Mike Foster <mafoster@...>
        >Sent: Feb 13, 2008 8:10 PM
        >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: two queries
        >
        >".but at the top of the Roll in all accounts stand the names of Captains
        >Meriadoc and Peregrin.
        >"Frodo had been in the battle, but he had not drawn sword, and his chief
        >part had been to prevent the hobbits, in their wrath at their losses,
        >from slaying those of their enemies who threw down their weapons."
        >
        >p. 365, "The Scouring of the Shire," _The Return of the King_,
        >Ballantine paperback edition.
        >
        >Conclude what you will; the fact is that Frodo's heroism is finally not
        >that of a warrior. Why Tolkien revised his story thus is conjecture;
        >that he did so is fact.
        >
        >_Pax vobiscum_
        >Mike
        >
        >-----Original Message-----
        >From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        >Of David Bratman
        >Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 6:53 PM
        >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: two queries
        >
        >Tolkien had already written Frodo renouncing the carrying of weapons in
        >Mordor when he drafted the initial versions of the Scouring in which
        >Frodo fights Sharky in single combat and does other improbable things.
        >It took Tolkien's conscious a while to catch on to what his subconscious
        >was doing.
        >
        >Lynn Maudlin <lynnmaudlin@ <mailto:lynnmaudlin%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com>
        >wrote:
        >
        >>--- In mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
        >"Mike Foster" <mafoster@...> wrote:
        >>>
        >>> For what it's worth, in the early drafts of the final chapters of
        >_The
        >>> Lord of the Rings_, narrating the events leading up to the scouring
        >of
        >>> the Shire, many of the defiant words and deeds are Frodo's. In
        >>> revision, Tolkien transferred these to Pippin and more often Merry.
        >>>
        >>> --MAF
        >>
        >>I don't know what you expect us to conclude from that, Mike - my own
        >>conclusion is that Frodo's journey was not that of a warrior and his
        >>sacrifice was not made with a sword. But I don't think that means
        >>Frodo didn't support Merry and Pippin in *their* call to be brave
        >>battling hobbits--
        >
        >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Mike Foster
        David, Please don t take what I wrote as a disputation of or quarrel with your observations. I was addressing the original question of this thread, which was
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 14, 2008
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          David,
          Please don't take what I wrote as a disputation of or quarrel with your
          observations. I was addressing the original question of this thread,
          which was whether or not Tolkien was a pacifist, which was the topic as
          it originally appeared. I used the text because it was handy, and
          "Conclude what you will" was a plural "you," addressed to the readers of
          this thread related to the question of JRRT's pacifism. Whether he was
          or was not-and I think he loathed war but realized that sometimes wars
          must be fought-he revised his story so that Frodo was not a warrior in
          the scouring of the shire, but rather one who sought to prevent needless
          bloodshed.

          Without a shake,
          Mike

          -----Original Message-----
          From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of David Bratman
          Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:47 AM
          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: two queries

          Mike -

          You write in a tough fact-citing tone that sounds as if you're disputing
          something that I said, but I cannot figure out what it might be.

          Frodo's odd and inappropriate behavior was, as I said, in the first
          draft, not the final draft. And then, as I wrote, "It took Tolkien's
          conscious a while to catch on to what his subconscious was doing." But
          when he figured it out, he wrote the excellent final text that you
          quote. Now isn't that marvelous, perhaps even more so than if he'd
          gotten it right the first time?

          "Conclude what you will, the fact is ..." you write, but I never said
          otherwise. "That he revised [the story] is fact," you also write, as
          indeed it is fact, and I took the liberty of assuming readers of this
          list would know that, without my having to shake the Ballantine
          paperback edition of _The Return of the King_ at them.

          David B.

          -----Original Message-----
          >From: Mike Foster <mafoster@hughes. <mailto:mafoster%40hughes.net> net>
          >Sent: Feb 13, 2008 8:10 PM
          >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com
          >Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: two queries
          >
          >".but at the top of the Roll in all accounts stand the names of
          Captains
          >Meriadoc and Peregrin.
          >"Frodo had been in the battle, but he had not drawn sword, and his
          chief
          >part had been to prevent the hobbits, in their wrath at their losses,
          >from slaying those of their enemies who threw down their weapons."
          >
          >p. 365, "The Scouring of the Shire," _The Return of the King_,
          >Ballantine paperback edition.
          >
          >Conclude what you will; the fact is that Frodo's heroism is finally not
          >that of a warrior. Why Tolkien revised his story thus is conjecture;
          >that he did so is fact.
          >
          >_Pax vobiscum_
          >Mike
          >
          >-----Original Message-----
          >From: mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com
          [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
          Behalf
          >Of David Bratman
          >Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 6:53 PM
          >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com
          >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: two queries
          >
          >Tolkien had already written Frodo renouncing the carrying of weapons in
          >Mordor when he drafted the initial versions of the Scouring in which
          >Frodo fights Sharky in single combat and does other improbable things.
          >It took Tolkien's conscious a while to catch on to what his
          subconscious
          >was doing.
          >
          >Lynn Maudlin <lynnmaudlin@ <mailto:lynnmaudlin%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com>
          >wrote:
          >
          >>--- In mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
          >"Mike Foster" <mafoster@...> wrote:
          >>>
          >>> For what it's worth, in the early drafts of the final chapters of
          >_The
          >>> Lord of the Rings_, narrating the events leading up to the scouring
          >of
          >>> the Shire, many of the defiant words and deeds are Frodo's. In
          >>> revision, Tolkien transferred these to Pippin and more often Merry.
          >>>
          >>> --MAF
          >>
          >>I don't know what you expect us to conclude from that, Mike - my own
          >>conclusion is that Frodo's journey was not that of a warrior and his
          >>sacrifice was not made with a sword. But I don't think that means
          >>Frodo didn't support Merry and Pippin in *their* call to be brave
          >>battling hobbits--
          >
          >
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lynn Maudlin
          ... are unclean and wearing clothes of different fabrics is a sin. Not to mention how horrible it is to eat cheesburgers, pork chops, or shrimp. ... You do
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 14, 2008
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            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, David Emerson <emerdavid@...> wrote:
            >
            > Yeah, but that's Old Testament -- the same document that says women
            are unclean and wearing clothes of different fabrics is a sin. Not to
            mention how horrible it is to eat cheesburgers, pork chops, or shrimp.
            >
            > emerdavid

            You do know that's like waving a red flag in front of a bull, right?!
            {grin}. Actually, the Hebrew scriptures say none of those things; the
            Torah provides the Law given to the nation Israel - that law was never
            given to the rest of the world, so mixing wool and linen is a sin for
            *the Jews* (which I've heard described as mixing 'work' and 'rest' -
            each is good, in the right place). Women are not unclean except during
            their menses (and men were unclean after having a wet dream--). I'm
            personally always intrigued by how "do not boil a kid in its mother's
            milk" gets turned into "no meat and dairy in the same meal" but that's
            certainly one way to make sure you never boil a kid in its mother's milk.

            I was just reading the dietary laws in Leviticus this morning (such
            timing!) and what strikes me is how God prohibited eating creatures
            which 1) eat other creatures (predators, vultures, eagles, sharks,
            etc.) and 2) eating creatures which consume filth (pigs will eat
            anything if they're allowed, it's actually disgusting; things like
            lobster & crab clean up the shallow seabed where waste accumulates)
            and 3) eating creatures of especially high intelligence (dolphins,
            whales).

            I think some of the law was given to set the Israelites apart from the
            nations around them and other parts of the law may have been given for
            practical health reasons.

            [/END TANGENT!!!]
          • Lynn Maudlin
            ... And Merry and Pippin s heroism *is* that of the warrior. I don t draw an over-arching conclusion from it, Mike, and I was trying to find out if *you* do,
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 14, 2008
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              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Foster" <mafoster@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Conclude what you will; the fact is that Frodo's heroism is finally
              > not that of a warrior. Why Tolkien revised his story thus is
              > conjecture; that he did so is fact.
              >
              > _Pax vobiscum_
              > Mike

              And Merry and Pippin's heroism *is* that of the warrior. I don't draw
              an over-arching conclusion from it, Mike, and I was trying to find out
              if *you* do, what you find the significance to be. I think different
              people's lives have different lessons, different experiences,
              different requirements - both in real life and in fiction.

              Happy Valentine's Day to you and your Jo-ness!

              -- Lynn --
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