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Re: two queries

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  • Lynn Maudlin
    ... I don t know what you expect us to conclude from that, Mike - my own conclusion is that Frodo s journey was not that of a warrior and his sacrifice was not
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 13, 2008
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      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Foster" <mafoster@...> wrote:
      >
      > For what it's worth, in the early drafts of the final chapters of _The
      > Lord of the Rings_, narrating the events leading up to the scouring of
      > the Shire, many of the defiant words and deeds are Frodo's. In
      > revision, Tolkien transferred these to Pippin and more often Merry.
      >
      > --MAF

      I don't know what you expect us to conclude from that, Mike - my own
      conclusion is that Frodo's journey was not that of a warrior and his
      sacrifice was not made with a sword. But I don't think that means
      Frodo didn't support Merry and Pippin in *their* call to be brave
      battling hobbits--

      -- Lynn --
    • David Emerson
      ... Yeah, but that s Old Testament -- the same document that says women are unclean and wearing clothes of different fabrics is a sin. Not to mention how
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 13, 2008
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        >It *is* interesting, living in a country which exists because our
        >founding fathers (and mamas, too) said, "hey, this is NOT right and
        >here's why it's not right and here's why God Himself would think it's
        >not right" - and yet we have both Hebrew scriptures (Nebuchadnezzar
        >himself in Daniel chapter 4 (specifically verse 17) and the NT stating
        >that God establishes governments and even suffers the ungodly ones.

        Yeah, but that's Old Testament -- the same document that says women are unclean and wearing clothes of different fabrics is a sin. Not to mention how horrible it is to eat cheesburgers, pork chops, or shrimp.

        emerdavid

        ________________________________________
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      • David Bratman
        Tolkien had already written Frodo renouncing the carrying of weapons in Mordor when he drafted the initial versions of the Scouring in which Frodo fights
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 13, 2008
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          Tolkien had already written Frodo renouncing the carrying of weapons in Mordor when he drafted the initial versions of the Scouring in which Frodo fights Sharky in single combat and does other improbable things. It took Tolkien's conscious a while to catch on to what his subconscious was doing.

          Lynn Maudlin <lynnmaudlin@...> wrote:

          >--- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Foster" <mafoster@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> For what it's worth, in the early drafts of the final chapters of _The
          >> Lord of the Rings_, narrating the events leading up to the scouring of
          >> the Shire, many of the defiant words and deeds are Frodo's. In
          >> revision, Tolkien transferred these to Pippin and more often Merry.
          >>
          >> --MAF
          >
          >I don't know what you expect us to conclude from that, Mike - my own
          >conclusion is that Frodo's journey was not that of a warrior and his
          >sacrifice was not made with a sword. But I don't think that means
          >Frodo didn't support Merry and Pippin in *their* call to be brave
          >battling hobbits--
        • Mike Foster
          .but at the top of the Roll in all accounts stand the names of Captains Meriadoc and Peregrin. Frodo had been in the battle, but he had not drawn sword, and
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 13, 2008
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            ".but at the top of the Roll in all accounts stand the names of Captains
            Meriadoc and Peregrin.
            "Frodo had been in the battle, but he had not drawn sword, and his chief
            part had been to prevent the hobbits, in their wrath at their losses,
            from slaying those of their enemies who threw down their weapons."

            p. 365, "The Scouring of the Shire," _The Return of the King_,
            Ballantine paperback edition.

            Conclude what you will; the fact is that Frodo's heroism is finally not
            that of a warrior. Why Tolkien revised his story thus is conjecture;
            that he did so is fact.

            _Pax vobiscum_
            Mike

            -----Original Message-----
            From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of David Bratman
            Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 6:53 PM
            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: two queries

            Tolkien had already written Frodo renouncing the carrying of weapons in
            Mordor when he drafted the initial versions of the Scouring in which
            Frodo fights Sharky in single combat and does other improbable things.
            It took Tolkien's conscious a while to catch on to what his subconscious
            was doing.

            Lynn Maudlin <lynnmaudlin@ <mailto:lynnmaudlin%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com>
            wrote:

            >--- In mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
            "Mike Foster" <mafoster@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> For what it's worth, in the early drafts of the final chapters of
            _The
            >> Lord of the Rings_, narrating the events leading up to the scouring
            of
            >> the Shire, many of the defiant words and deeds are Frodo's. In
            >> revision, Tolkien transferred these to Pippin and more often Merry.
            >>
            >> --MAF
            >
            >I don't know what you expect us to conclude from that, Mike - my own
            >conclusion is that Frodo's journey was not that of a warrior and his
            >sacrifice was not made with a sword. But I don't think that means
            >Frodo didn't support Merry and Pippin in *their* call to be brave
            >battling hobbits--



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David Bratman
            Mike - You write in a tough fact-citing tone that sounds as if you re disputing something that I said, but I cannot figure out what it might be. Frodo s odd
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 13, 2008
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              Mike -

              You write in a tough fact-citing tone that sounds as if you're disputing something that I said, but I cannot figure out what it might be.

              Frodo's odd and inappropriate behavior was, as I said, in the first draft, not the final draft. And then, as I wrote, "It took Tolkien's conscious a while to catch on to what his subconscious was doing." But when he figured it out, he wrote the excellent final text that you quote. Now isn't that marvelous, perhaps even more so than if he'd gotten it right the first time?

              "Conclude what you will, the fact is ..." you write, but I never said otherwise. "That he revised [the story] is fact," you also write, as indeed it is fact, and I took the liberty of assuming readers of this list would know that, without my having to shake the Ballantine paperback edition of _The Return of the King_ at them.

              David B.

              -----Original Message-----
              >From: Mike Foster <mafoster@...>
              >Sent: Feb 13, 2008 8:10 PM
              >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: two queries
              >
              >".but at the top of the Roll in all accounts stand the names of Captains
              >Meriadoc and Peregrin.
              >"Frodo had been in the battle, but he had not drawn sword, and his chief
              >part had been to prevent the hobbits, in their wrath at their losses,
              >from slaying those of their enemies who threw down their weapons."
              >
              >p. 365, "The Scouring of the Shire," _The Return of the King_,
              >Ballantine paperback edition.
              >
              >Conclude what you will; the fact is that Frodo's heroism is finally not
              >that of a warrior. Why Tolkien revised his story thus is conjecture;
              >that he did so is fact.
              >
              >_Pax vobiscum_
              >Mike
              >
              >-----Original Message-----
              >From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              >Of David Bratman
              >Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 6:53 PM
              >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: two queries
              >
              >Tolkien had already written Frodo renouncing the carrying of weapons in
              >Mordor when he drafted the initial versions of the Scouring in which
              >Frodo fights Sharky in single combat and does other improbable things.
              >It took Tolkien's conscious a while to catch on to what his subconscious
              >was doing.
              >
              >Lynn Maudlin <lynnmaudlin@ <mailto:lynnmaudlin%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com>
              >wrote:
              >
              >>--- In mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
              >"Mike Foster" <mafoster@...> wrote:
              >>>
              >>> For what it's worth, in the early drafts of the final chapters of
              >_The
              >>> Lord of the Rings_, narrating the events leading up to the scouring
              >of
              >>> the Shire, many of the defiant words and deeds are Frodo's. In
              >>> revision, Tolkien transferred these to Pippin and more often Merry.
              >>>
              >>> --MAF
              >>
              >>I don't know what you expect us to conclude from that, Mike - my own
              >>conclusion is that Frodo's journey was not that of a warrior and his
              >>sacrifice was not made with a sword. But I don't think that means
              >>Frodo didn't support Merry and Pippin in *their* call to be brave
              >>battling hobbits--
              >
              >
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Mike Foster
              David, Please don t take what I wrote as a disputation of or quarrel with your observations. I was addressing the original question of this thread, which was
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 14, 2008
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                David,
                Please don't take what I wrote as a disputation of or quarrel with your
                observations. I was addressing the original question of this thread,
                which was whether or not Tolkien was a pacifist, which was the topic as
                it originally appeared. I used the text because it was handy, and
                "Conclude what you will" was a plural "you," addressed to the readers of
                this thread related to the question of JRRT's pacifism. Whether he was
                or was not-and I think he loathed war but realized that sometimes wars
                must be fought-he revised his story so that Frodo was not a warrior in
                the scouring of the shire, but rather one who sought to prevent needless
                bloodshed.

                Without a shake,
                Mike

                -----Original Message-----
                From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of David Bratman
                Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:47 AM
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: two queries

                Mike -

                You write in a tough fact-citing tone that sounds as if you're disputing
                something that I said, but I cannot figure out what it might be.

                Frodo's odd and inappropriate behavior was, as I said, in the first
                draft, not the final draft. And then, as I wrote, "It took Tolkien's
                conscious a while to catch on to what his subconscious was doing." But
                when he figured it out, he wrote the excellent final text that you
                quote. Now isn't that marvelous, perhaps even more so than if he'd
                gotten it right the first time?

                "Conclude what you will, the fact is ..." you write, but I never said
                otherwise. "That he revised [the story] is fact," you also write, as
                indeed it is fact, and I took the liberty of assuming readers of this
                list would know that, without my having to shake the Ballantine
                paperback edition of _The Return of the King_ at them.

                David B.

                -----Original Message-----
                >From: Mike Foster <mafoster@hughes. <mailto:mafoster%40hughes.net> net>
                >Sent: Feb 13, 2008 8:10 PM
                >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                >Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: two queries
                >
                >".but at the top of the Roll in all accounts stand the names of
                Captains
                >Meriadoc and Peregrin.
                >"Frodo had been in the battle, but he had not drawn sword, and his
                chief
                >part had been to prevent the hobbits, in their wrath at their losses,
                >from slaying those of their enemies who threw down their weapons."
                >
                >p. 365, "The Scouring of the Shire," _The Return of the King_,
                >Ballantine paperback edition.
                >
                >Conclude what you will; the fact is that Frodo's heroism is finally not
                >that of a warrior. Why Tolkien revised his story thus is conjecture;
                >that he did so is fact.
                >
                >_Pax vobiscum_
                >Mike
                >
                >-----Original Message-----
                >From: mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
                Behalf
                >Of David Bratman
                >Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 6:53 PM
                >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: two queries
                >
                >Tolkien had already written Frodo renouncing the carrying of weapons in
                >Mordor when he drafted the initial versions of the Scouring in which
                >Frodo fights Sharky in single combat and does other improbable things.
                >It took Tolkien's conscious a while to catch on to what his
                subconscious
                >was doing.
                >
                >Lynn Maudlin <lynnmaudlin@ <mailto:lynnmaudlin%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com>
                >wrote:
                >
                >>--- In mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                >"Mike Foster" <mafoster@...> wrote:
                >>>
                >>> For what it's worth, in the early drafts of the final chapters of
                >_The
                >>> Lord of the Rings_, narrating the events leading up to the scouring
                >of
                >>> the Shire, many of the defiant words and deeds are Frodo's. In
                >>> revision, Tolkien transferred these to Pippin and more often Merry.
                >>>
                >>> --MAF
                >>
                >>I don't know what you expect us to conclude from that, Mike - my own
                >>conclusion is that Frodo's journey was not that of a warrior and his
                >>sacrifice was not made with a sword. But I don't think that means
                >>Frodo didn't support Merry and Pippin in *their* call to be brave
                >>battling hobbits--
                >
                >
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Lynn Maudlin
                ... are unclean and wearing clothes of different fabrics is a sin. Not to mention how horrible it is to eat cheesburgers, pork chops, or shrimp. ... You do
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 14, 2008
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                  --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, David Emerson <emerdavid@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Yeah, but that's Old Testament -- the same document that says women
                  are unclean and wearing clothes of different fabrics is a sin. Not to
                  mention how horrible it is to eat cheesburgers, pork chops, or shrimp.
                  >
                  > emerdavid

                  You do know that's like waving a red flag in front of a bull, right?!
                  {grin}. Actually, the Hebrew scriptures say none of those things; the
                  Torah provides the Law given to the nation Israel - that law was never
                  given to the rest of the world, so mixing wool and linen is a sin for
                  *the Jews* (which I've heard described as mixing 'work' and 'rest' -
                  each is good, in the right place). Women are not unclean except during
                  their menses (and men were unclean after having a wet dream--). I'm
                  personally always intrigued by how "do not boil a kid in its mother's
                  milk" gets turned into "no meat and dairy in the same meal" but that's
                  certainly one way to make sure you never boil a kid in its mother's milk.

                  I was just reading the dietary laws in Leviticus this morning (such
                  timing!) and what strikes me is how God prohibited eating creatures
                  which 1) eat other creatures (predators, vultures, eagles, sharks,
                  etc.) and 2) eating creatures which consume filth (pigs will eat
                  anything if they're allowed, it's actually disgusting; things like
                  lobster & crab clean up the shallow seabed where waste accumulates)
                  and 3) eating creatures of especially high intelligence (dolphins,
                  whales).

                  I think some of the law was given to set the Israelites apart from the
                  nations around them and other parts of the law may have been given for
                  practical health reasons.

                  [/END TANGENT!!!]
                • Lynn Maudlin
                  ... And Merry and Pippin s heroism *is* that of the warrior. I don t draw an over-arching conclusion from it, Mike, and I was trying to find out if *you* do,
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 14, 2008
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                    --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Foster" <mafoster@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Conclude what you will; the fact is that Frodo's heroism is finally
                    > not that of a warrior. Why Tolkien revised his story thus is
                    > conjecture; that he did so is fact.
                    >
                    > _Pax vobiscum_
                    > Mike

                    And Merry and Pippin's heroism *is* that of the warrior. I don't draw
                    an over-arching conclusion from it, Mike, and I was trying to find out
                    if *you* do, what you find the significance to be. I think different
                    people's lives have different lessons, different experiences,
                    different requirements - both in real life and in fiction.

                    Happy Valentine's Day to you and your Jo-ness!

                    -- Lynn --
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