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Pullman (was Re: Lucy, Galadriel, and Temptation)

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  • Marc Drayer
    I m afraid I misspelled the second URL. Here is the right one: http://credenda.org/issues/18-2liturgia.php ... tend ... of ... or ... Peter ... two ... assume
    Message 1 of 38 , Dec 16, 2007
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      I'm afraid I misspelled the second URL. Here is the right one:

      http://credenda.org/issues/18-2liturgia.php


      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Drayer" <mdrayer2001@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > I agree. It's a fault of modern Christian publishing, that they
      tend
      > to be so shallow and preachy, and usually languish on the shelves
      of
      > Christian bookstores. Are there no Lewises, Tolkiens, C. Williams
      or
      > Dostoyevskys left in the world? Or are Donald T. Williams and
      Peter
      > Leithard right when they say evangelicals can't write, as these
      two
      > aritcles tell us?
      >
      > Williams:
      >
      > http://doulomen.tripod.com/topics/DTWtopics_cantwrite.htm
      >
      > Leithard:
      >
      > http://credenda.org/issues/18-21iturgia.php
      >
      > Under the Mercy,
      > Marc Drayer
      >
      >
      > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Diane Joy Baker" <dbaker021@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > I read Jenkins and LeHaye. Bleah. Cardboard characters all
      > through. Vecchh!
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: Lynn Maudlin
      > > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 6:23 PM
      > > Subject: [mythsoc] Pullman (was Re: Lucy, Galadriel, and
      > Temptation)
      > >
      > >
      > > Like Carl, I was put off by the pot-boileresque prose of the
      > LaHaye-
      > > Jenkins books (I actually read the first one - bleah - I
      assume
      > they
      > > didn't appreciably improve). And I'm also put off by folks who
      > > rewrite history but present it as true... you know, how JFK
      was
      > > assassinated by a high-powered hunting crossbow? I just hate
      all
      > > this stuff about bullets and rifles...
      > >
      > > -- Lynn --
      > >
      > > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Carl F. Hostetter"
      <Aelfwine@>
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fisher <visualweasel@>
      > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Carl,
      > > > >
      > > > > > Isn't a book that is overtly _antagonistic_ to a
      worldview
      > > > > > that is held (and held dear) by a very large number of
      > > > > > people, naturally more likely to be off-putting, even
      > simply
      > > > > > in _tone_, than one that is _apologetic_ for that
      worldview
      > > > > > (and further not itself overtly antagonistic towards
      those
      > > > > > who believe otherwise) -- whether one shares that
      worldview
      > > > > > or not?
      > > > >
      > > > > Yes, I would say so, as a general rule. Although with the
      > caveat
      > > that an apologetic work
      > > > > may be perceived by some as unwelcome proselytism.
      > > >
      > > > Yes, but even so, "unwelcome proselytism" is not the same
      > thing as
      > > polemic. And whatever
      > > > Pullman says, I've been given enough reason to believe that
      > his
      > > series _is_ polemical,
      > > > particularly the third book, even by those who enjoyed the
      > series
      > > (except for the third
      > > > book, not coincidentally) and were not themselves religious.
      > > >
      > > > > Or to take a more extreme example, there is Tim LaHaye's
      > Left
      > > Behind series. I know
      > > > > these books offend many non-Christians in much the same
      way
      > > Pullman offends
      > > > > Christians (though I have not read them).
      > > >
      > > > I don't doubt it. Personally, I was "offended" by the
      > amazingly
      > > bad prose in the sample of
      > > > the first chapter of the first book that is all I've read of
      > the
      > > series.
      > > >
      > > > > And the flip side again, I know that Dan Brown's The Da
      > Vinci
      > > Code (which I hear, but do
      > > > > know first-hand, is a dreadful novel), again, offends many
      > > Christians.
      > > >
      > > > What "offended" me about this book, in addition to Brown's
      > very
      > > very bad writing, was the
      > > > bald-faced lies about actual history he told, after going
      out
      > of
      > > his way to assure his
      > > > readers that his "facts" are all true. It's one thing to
      write
      > > fictions. It's quite another to urge
      > > > your readers to believe that they are not!
      > > >
      > > > > > Further on this topic: I find it odd to see an apparent
      > > attitude
      > > > > > that a work of fiction set in another world must be
      > regarded
      > > > > > as not having anything to say about our world.
      Particularly
      > > > > > on this list!
      > > > >
      > > > > Did I say that? To whom are you responding, Carl?
      > > >
      > > > No, this was not addressed to you (that's what I tried to
      > convey,
      > > poorly, by prefixing
      > > > "further on this topic"). It was in reaction to John's
      comment
      > > earlier in the thread that:
      > > >
      > > > > I suspect others have the reverse problem with Pullman;
      they
      > > read his fantasy as if he
      > > > > were writing a realistic novel about our world, and react
      > > accordingly.
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
    • Marc Drayer
      I m afraid I misspelled the second URL. Here is the right one: http://credenda.org/issues/18-2liturgia.php ... tend ... of ... or ... Peter ... two ... assume
      Message 38 of 38 , Dec 16, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        I'm afraid I misspelled the second URL. Here is the right one:

        http://credenda.org/issues/18-2liturgia.php


        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Drayer" <mdrayer2001@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > I agree. It's a fault of modern Christian publishing, that they
        tend
        > to be so shallow and preachy, and usually languish on the shelves
        of
        > Christian bookstores. Are there no Lewises, Tolkiens, C. Williams
        or
        > Dostoyevskys left in the world? Or are Donald T. Williams and
        Peter
        > Leithard right when they say evangelicals can't write, as these
        two
        > aritcles tell us?
        >
        > Williams:
        >
        > http://doulomen.tripod.com/topics/DTWtopics_cantwrite.htm
        >
        > Leithard:
        >
        > http://credenda.org/issues/18-21iturgia.php
        >
        > Under the Mercy,
        > Marc Drayer
        >
        >
        > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Diane Joy Baker" <dbaker021@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > I read Jenkins and LeHaye. Bleah. Cardboard characters all
        > through. Vecchh!
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: Lynn Maudlin
        > > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 6:23 PM
        > > Subject: [mythsoc] Pullman (was Re: Lucy, Galadriel, and
        > Temptation)
        > >
        > >
        > > Like Carl, I was put off by the pot-boileresque prose of the
        > LaHaye-
        > > Jenkins books (I actually read the first one - bleah - I
        assume
        > they
        > > didn't appreciably improve). And I'm also put off by folks who
        > > rewrite history but present it as true... you know, how JFK
        was
        > > assassinated by a high-powered hunting crossbow? I just hate
        all
        > > this stuff about bullets and rifles...
        > >
        > > -- Lynn --
        > >
        > > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Carl F. Hostetter"
        <Aelfwine@>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fisher <visualweasel@>
        > wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Carl,
        > > > >
        > > > > > Isn't a book that is overtly _antagonistic_ to a
        worldview
        > > > > > that is held (and held dear) by a very large number of
        > > > > > people, naturally more likely to be off-putting, even
        > simply
        > > > > > in _tone_, than one that is _apologetic_ for that
        worldview
        > > > > > (and further not itself overtly antagonistic towards
        those
        > > > > > who believe otherwise) -- whether one shares that
        worldview
        > > > > > or not?
        > > > >
        > > > > Yes, I would say so, as a general rule. Although with the
        > caveat
        > > that an apologetic work
        > > > > may be perceived by some as unwelcome proselytism.
        > > >
        > > > Yes, but even so, "unwelcome proselytism" is not the same
        > thing as
        > > polemic. And whatever
        > > > Pullman says, I've been given enough reason to believe that
        > his
        > > series _is_ polemical,
        > > > particularly the third book, even by those who enjoyed the
        > series
        > > (except for the third
        > > > book, not coincidentally) and were not themselves religious.
        > > >
        > > > > Or to take a more extreme example, there is Tim LaHaye's
        > Left
        > > Behind series. I know
        > > > > these books offend many non-Christians in much the same
        way
        > > Pullman offends
        > > > > Christians (though I have not read them).
        > > >
        > > > I don't doubt it. Personally, I was "offended" by the
        > amazingly
        > > bad prose in the sample of
        > > > the first chapter of the first book that is all I've read of
        > the
        > > series.
        > > >
        > > > > And the flip side again, I know that Dan Brown's The Da
        > Vinci
        > > Code (which I hear, but do
        > > > > know first-hand, is a dreadful novel), again, offends many
        > > Christians.
        > > >
        > > > What "offended" me about this book, in addition to Brown's
        > very
        > > very bad writing, was the
        > > > bald-faced lies about actual history he told, after going
        out
        > of
        > > his way to assure his
        > > > readers that his "facts" are all true. It's one thing to
        write
        > > fictions. It's quite another to urge
        > > > your readers to believe that they are not!
        > > >
        > > > > > Further on this topic: I find it odd to see an apparent
        > > attitude
        > > > > > that a work of fiction set in another world must be
        > regarded
        > > > > > as not having anything to say about our world.
        Particularly
        > > > > > on this list!
        > > > >
        > > > > Did I say that? To whom are you responding, Carl?
        > > >
        > > > No, this was not addressed to you (that's what I tried to
        > convey,
        > > poorly, by prefixing
        > > > "further on this topic"). It was in reaction to John's
        comment
        > > earlier in the thread that:
        > > >
        > > > > I suspect others have the reverse problem with Pullman;
        they
        > > read his fantasy as if he
        > > > > were writing a realistic novel about our world, and react
        > > accordingly.
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
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