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RE: [mythsoc] Re: Article that mentions Tolkien

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  • Mike Foster
    This isn’t quite on the order of the Ku Klux Klan pamphlet “Theoden Was A White Rider” that I once found shoved underneath my office door but it does
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 4, 2007
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      This isn�t quite on the order of the Ku Klux Klan pamphlet �Theoden Was
      A White Rider� that I once found shoved underneath my office door but it
      does point out that readers inclined to do so can bend a work of
      literature to fit their sociopolitical template.

      Mike



      -----Original Message-----
      From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Merlin DeTardo
      Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 4:11 PM
      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Article that mentions Tolkien

      >---WendellWag@... wrote:
      << They make no comment themselves on what they think of it.
      Neither will I. It's "The Once & Future Christendom" by James P.
      Pinkerton from the September 10th issue of _The American
      Conservative_... >>

      Thanks for the link, Wendell.

      I won't refrain from some quibbles.

      Peter Jackson is not mentioned in the article, but in Pinkerton's
      opening paragraph, he is quoting Jackson's movie not Tolkien's book
      (cue Mike Foster's signature line). For example, he gives Gandalf's
      remark about the actions of some power directing Bilbo's acquisition
      of the Ring as:

      "And that is an encouraging thought."

      In the book, Gandalf says:

      "And that may be an encouraging thought."

      The difference was lately noted in a discussion of "The Shadow of the
      Past" at TheOneRing.net.*

      Pinkerton also overstates when he says that "Frodo is a Fallohide."
      In the Prologue to _LotR_, Tolkien writes:

      "In Eriador [the Fallohides] soon mingled with the other kinds that
      had preceded them, but being somewhat bolder and more adventurous,
      they were often found as leaders or chieftains among clans of
      Harfoots or Stoors. Even in Bilbo���s time the strong Fallohidish
      strain could still be noted among the greater families, such as the
      Tooks and the Masters of Buckland."

      I also think Pinkerton is wrong that Tolkien "modeled Frodo,
      admiringly, after the Tommies��"the grunt infantrymen" (that sounds
      more like Sam), that "the greatest desire for power, Ring-lust, is
      felt by men, not the lesser beings" (which ignores the tale's
      climax), and that the "Council of Elrond will fight Sauron���s army
      through 'conventional' means".

      -Merlin DeTardo

      * http://newboards.
      <http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?>
      theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?
      do=post_view_threaded;post=50358;sb=post_time;so=DESC;



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • bernip
      Mike, was it something someone had put together as a joke or did it sound serious? Scary if #2. Berni ... From: Mike Foster This isn t
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 4, 2007
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        Mike, was it something someone had put together as a joke or did it sound
        serious? Scary if #2.

        Berni

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Mike Foster" <mafoster@...>


        This isn't quite on the order of the Ku Klux Klan pamphlet "Theoden Was
        A White Rider" that I once found shoved underneath my office door but it
        does point out that readers inclined to do so can bend a work of
        literature to fit their sociopolitical template.
      • Mike Foster
        Berni, It didn t look like a joke to me. It was a preprinted trifold one-sheet pamphlet that looked serious enough to me to pass along to college security.
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 4, 2007
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          Berni,
          It didn't look like a joke to me. It was a preprinted trifold one-sheet
          pamphlet that looked serious enough to me to pass along to college
          security. So I don't have it, and in any case, it would be one of the
          more noisome Tolkien collectibles.

          Mike

          -----Original Message-----
          From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of bernip
          Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:57 PM
          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Article that mentions Tolkien

          Mike, was it something someone had put together as a joke or did it
          sound
          serious? Scary if #2.

          Berni

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Mike Foster" <mafoster@hughes. <mailto:mafoster%40hughes.net>
          net>

          This isn't quite on the order of the Ku Klux Klan pamphlet "Theoden Was
          A White Rider" that I once found shoved underneath my office door but it
          does point out that readers inclined to do so can bend a work of
          literature to fit their sociopolitical template.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lynn Maudlin
          FWIW, I think the two are miles apart... One might read Pinkerton s article and feel he misuses JRRT but I don t think he s any further off than the folks who
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 4, 2007
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            FWIW, I think the two are miles apart...

            One might read Pinkerton's article and feel he misuses JRRT but I
            don't think he's any further off than the folks who saw Tolkien as
            "green" - he's talking about what *he* gets out of Tolkien and how he
            applies it to one of the issues of the day.

            -- Lynn --


            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Foster" <mafoster@...> wrote:
            >
            > Berni,
            > It didn't look like a joke to me. It was a preprinted trifold one-sheet
            > pamphlet that looked serious enough to me to pass along to college
            > security. So I don't have it, and in any case, it would be one of the
            > more noisome Tolkien collectibles.
            >
            > Mike
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            > Of bernip
            > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:57 PM
            > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Article that mentions Tolkien
            >
            > Mike, was it something someone had put together as a joke or did it
            > sound
            > serious? Scary if #2.
            >
            > Berni
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Mike Foster" <mafoster@hughes. <mailto:mafoster%40hughes.net>
            > net>
            >
            > This isn't quite on the order of the Ku Klux Klan pamphlet "Theoden Was
            > A White Rider" that I once found shoved underneath my office door but it
            > does point out that readers inclined to do so can bend a work of
            > literature to fit their sociopolitical template.
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Merlin DeTardo
            ...
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 4, 2007
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              >--- "Lynn Maudlin" <lynnmaudlin@...> wrote:

              << One might read Pinkerton's article and feel he misuses JRRT but I
              don't think he's any further off than the folks who saw Tolkien
              as "green"... >>


              Here's one such: Tom Shippey, in his article, "Literature, Twentieth
              Century, Influence of Tolkien", in _J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia_ (2006):

              "If he were voting today, Tolkien would certainly vote for the Green
              Party..."

              -Merlin DeTardo
            • John D Rateliff
              Thanks for the link, Wendell. I found the article itself appalling, but fascinating as an exercise in applicability . And I would have missed it altogether if
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 5, 2007
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                Thanks for the link, Wendell. I found the article itself appalling,
                but fascinating as an exercise in 'applicability'. And I would have
                missed it altogether if not for your posting.
                --JDR

                On Dec 4, 2007, at 11:31 AM, WendellWag@... wrote:

                > There's an article in the Readings section of _Harper's_ this month
                > that
                > mentions Tolkien in an interesting way. The Readings section
                > reprints writings
                > (or selections from writings) that the editors find important in
                > some way,
                > sometimes because they think it expresses a good idea, sometimes
                > because they
                > find the viewpoint horrifying. They make no comment themselves on
                > what they
                > think of it. Neither will I. It's "The Once & Future
                > Christendom" by James
                > P. Pinkerton from the September 10th issue of _The American
                > Conservative_. My
                > apologies if someone has already given a link to this.
                >
                > _http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2007_09_10/cover.html_
                > (http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2007_09_10/cover.html)
                >
                > Wendell Wagner
              • Lynn Maudlin
                Assuredly JRRT was ecologically minded but I don t know that that equals Green Party voter (which, my impression from *this* side of the pond, is fairly
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 5, 2007
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                  Assuredly JRRT was ecologically minded but I don't know that that
                  equals "Green Party voter" (which, my impression from *this* side of
                  the pond, is fairly left-leaning in nearly all regards, yes?). But I
                  could have used the example of the folks who thought that pipeweed was
                  marijuana... (like Peter Jackson, perhaps?!!).

                  All due respect to Tom Shippey, but I suspect Priscilla Tolkien and
                  Christopher Tolkien would be better at surmising how JRRT would vote
                  in today's elections.

                  -- Lynn --


                  --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >--- "Lynn Maudlin" <lynnmaudlin@> wrote:
                  >
                  > << One might read Pinkerton's article and feel he misuses JRRT but I
                  > don't think he's any further off than the folks who saw Tolkien
                  > as "green"... >>
                  >
                  >
                  > Here's one such: Tom Shippey, in his article, "Literature, Twentieth
                  > Century, Influence of Tolkien", in _J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia_ (2006):
                  >
                  > "If he were voting today, Tolkien would certainly vote for the Green
                  > Party..."
                  >
                  > -Merlin DeTardo
                  >
                • David Bratman
                  I very much doubt that Tolkien would vote for the Green Party, but he was very far from being a stereotypical Tory. That his ecological views were, through a
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 5, 2007
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                    I very much doubt that Tolkien would vote for the Green Party, but he was very far from being a stereotypical Tory. That his ecological views were, through a Christian viewpoint, very green with a small "g" is, I think, adequately proven by Dickerson and Evans's "Ents, Elves, and Eriador," and also supported by Curry's "Defending Middle-earth." Using "seeing Tolkien as 'green'" as any kind of measure of "offness" in Tolkien studies is, I think, unfair and mistaken. Tolkien was entirely comparatible with being "green", as long as you do not confuse that with either of 1) voting for the Green Party; 2) adopting the lifestyle of stereotypically "green" people.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    >From: Lynn Maudlin <lynnmaudlin@...>
                    >Sent: Dec 5, 2007 9:12 PM
                    >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Article that mentions Tolkien
                    >
                    >Assuredly JRRT was ecologically minded but I don't know that that
                    >equals "Green Party voter" (which, my impression from *this* side of
                    >the pond, is fairly left-leaning in nearly all regards, yes?). But I
                    >could have used the example of the folks who thought that pipeweed was
                    >marijuana... (like Peter Jackson, perhaps?!!).
                    >
                    >All due respect to Tom Shippey, but I suspect Priscilla Tolkien and
                    >Christopher Tolkien would be better at surmising how JRRT would vote
                    >in today's elections.
                    >
                    > -- Lynn --
                    >
                    >
                    >--- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> >--- "Lynn Maudlin" <lynnmaudlin@> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> << One might read Pinkerton's article and feel he misuses JRRT but I
                    >> don't think he's any further off than the folks who saw Tolkien
                    >> as "green"... >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Here's one such: Tom Shippey, in his article, "Literature, Twentieth
                    >> Century, Influence of Tolkien", in _J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia_ (2006):
                    >>
                    >> "If he were voting today, Tolkien would certainly vote for the Green
                    >> Party..."
                    >>
                    >> -Merlin DeTardo
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                  • Lynn Maudlin
                    Thank you for stating it so much better than I, David. I am also a little g green so I knew what I meant, however I mangled the sense! (currently throttling
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 10, 2007
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                      Thank you for stating it so much better than I, David. I am also a
                      "little g green" so I knew what I meant, however I mangled the sense!
                      (currently throttling words).

                      -- Lynn --

                      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, David Bratman <dbratman@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I very much doubt that Tolkien would vote for the Green Party, but
                      he was very far from being a stereotypical Tory. That his ecological
                      views were, through a Christian viewpoint, very green with a small "g"
                      is, I think, adequately proven by Dickerson and Evans's "Ents, Elves,
                      and Eriador," and also supported by Curry's "Defending Middle-earth."
                      Using "seeing Tolkien as 'green'" as any kind of measure of "offness"
                      in Tolkien studies is, I think, unfair and mistaken. Tolkien was
                      entirely comparatible with being "green", as long as you do not
                      confuse that with either of 1) voting for the Green Party; 2) adopting
                      the lifestyle of stereotypically "green" people.
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > >From: Lynn Maudlin <lynnmaudlin@...>
                      > >Sent: Dec 5, 2007 9:12 PM
                      > >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                      > >Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Article that mentions Tolkien
                      > >
                      > >Assuredly JRRT was ecologically minded but I don't know that that
                      > >equals "Green Party voter" (which, my impression from *this* side of
                      > >the pond, is fairly left-leaning in nearly all regards, yes?). But I
                      > >could have used the example of the folks who thought that pipeweed was
                      > >marijuana... (like Peter Jackson, perhaps?!!).
                      > >
                      > >All due respect to Tom Shippey, but I suspect Priscilla Tolkien and
                      > >Christopher Tolkien would be better at surmising how JRRT would vote
                      > >in today's elections.
                      > >
                      > > -- Lynn --
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >--- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@> wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >> >--- "Lynn Maudlin" <lynnmaudlin@> wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >> << One might read Pinkerton's article and feel he misuses JRRT
                      but I
                      > >> don't think he's any further off than the folks who saw Tolkien
                      > >> as "green"... >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> Here's one such: Tom Shippey, in his article, "Literature, Twentieth
                      > >> Century, Influence of Tolkien", in _J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia_
                      (2006):
                      > >>
                      > >> "If he were voting today, Tolkien would certainly vote for the Green
                      > >> Party..."
                      > >>
                      > >> -Merlin DeTardo
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
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