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another Tolkien mention

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  • John D Rateliff
    Here s a passing mention of Tolkien I came across recently in a little booklet put out by the British Museum. It s one of a series of chapbooks, each
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 4, 2007
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      Here's a passing mention of Tolkien I came across recently in a
      little booklet put out by the British Museum. It's one of a series of
      chapbooks, each sixty-four pages long and plentifully illustrated,
      and each devoted to a single artifact from their collection. This
      quote comes from near the end of THE SUTTON HOO HELMET by Sonja
      Marzinzik [2007] (page 60):

      "The Sutton Hoo helmet has lost none of its fascination. It
      adorns the cover of novels, scholarly and popular publications.
      Replicas, sometimes barely recognizable, can be bought over the
      internet and its discovery has inspired artists, film makers,
      designers and writers. J.R.R. Tolkien, for instance, had only written
      the first few chapters of the 'Lord of the Rings', when the 1939
      excavations made headlines. He later repeatedly referred to the ship
      burial and it may well have influenced his description of barrow
      wights and the burial mounds of Rohan."

      Yet another attempt to 'claim' Tolkien and add the luster of his
      reputation to the subject at hand, though at least there's some
      justification here. Though in point of fact Tolkien's account of a
      mound-burial doesn't follow either BEOWULF or Sutton Hoo in detail,
      so far as I can tell.

      --JDR
    • Merlin DeTardo
      ...
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 4, 2007
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        >---WendellWag@... wrote:
        << They make no comment themselves on what they think of it.
        Neither will I. It's "The Once & Future Christendom" by James P.
        Pinkerton from the September 10th issue of _The American
        Conservative_... >>

        Thanks for the link, Wendell.

        I won't refrain from some quibbles.

        Peter Jackson is not mentioned in the article, but in Pinkerton's
        opening paragraph, he is quoting Jackson's movie not Tolkien's book
        (cue Mike Foster's signature line). For example, he gives Gandalf's
        remark about the actions of some power directing Bilbo's acquisition
        of the Ring as:

        "And that is an encouraging thought."

        In the book, Gandalf says:

        "And that may be an encouraging thought."

        The difference was lately noted in a discussion of "The Shadow of the
        Past" at TheOneRing.net.*

        Pinkerton also overstates when he says that "Frodo is a Fallohide."
        In the Prologue to _LotR_, Tolkien writes:

        "In Eriador [the Fallohides] soon mingled with the other kinds that
        had preceded them, but being somewhat bolder and more adventurous,
        they were often found as leaders or chieftains among clans of
        Harfoots or Stoors. Even in Bilbo’s time the strong Fallohidish
        strain could still be noted among the greater families, such as the
        Tooks and the Masters of Buckland."

        I also think Pinkerton is wrong that Tolkien "modeled Frodo,
        admiringly, after the Tommiesâ€"the grunt infantrymen" (that sounds
        more like Sam), that "the greatest desire for power, Ring-lust, is
        felt by men, not the lesser beings" (which ignores the tale's
        climax), and that the "Council of Elrond will fight Sauron’s army
        through 'conventional' means".

        -Merlin DeTardo

        * http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?
        do=post_view_threaded;post=50358;sb=post_time;so=DESC;
      • Mike Foster
        This isn’t quite on the order of the Ku Klux Klan pamphlet “Theoden Was A White Rider” that I once found shoved underneath my office door but it does
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 4, 2007
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          This isn�t quite on the order of the Ku Klux Klan pamphlet �Theoden Was
          A White Rider� that I once found shoved underneath my office door but it
          does point out that readers inclined to do so can bend a work of
          literature to fit their sociopolitical template.

          Mike



          -----Original Message-----
          From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Merlin DeTardo
          Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 4:11 PM
          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Article that mentions Tolkien

          >---WendellWag@... wrote:
          << They make no comment themselves on what they think of it.
          Neither will I. It's "The Once & Future Christendom" by James P.
          Pinkerton from the September 10th issue of _The American
          Conservative_... >>

          Thanks for the link, Wendell.

          I won't refrain from some quibbles.

          Peter Jackson is not mentioned in the article, but in Pinkerton's
          opening paragraph, he is quoting Jackson's movie not Tolkien's book
          (cue Mike Foster's signature line). For example, he gives Gandalf's
          remark about the actions of some power directing Bilbo's acquisition
          of the Ring as:

          "And that is an encouraging thought."

          In the book, Gandalf says:

          "And that may be an encouraging thought."

          The difference was lately noted in a discussion of "The Shadow of the
          Past" at TheOneRing.net.*

          Pinkerton also overstates when he says that "Frodo is a Fallohide."
          In the Prologue to _LotR_, Tolkien writes:

          "In Eriador [the Fallohides] soon mingled with the other kinds that
          had preceded them, but being somewhat bolder and more adventurous,
          they were often found as leaders or chieftains among clans of
          Harfoots or Stoors. Even in Bilbo���s time the strong Fallohidish
          strain could still be noted among the greater families, such as the
          Tooks and the Masters of Buckland."

          I also think Pinkerton is wrong that Tolkien "modeled Frodo,
          admiringly, after the Tommies��"the grunt infantrymen" (that sounds
          more like Sam), that "the greatest desire for power, Ring-lust, is
          felt by men, not the lesser beings" (which ignores the tale's
          climax), and that the "Council of Elrond will fight Sauron���s army
          through 'conventional' means".

          -Merlin DeTardo

          * http://newboards.
          <http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?>
          theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?
          do=post_view_threaded;post=50358;sb=post_time;so=DESC;



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • bernip
          Mike, was it something someone had put together as a joke or did it sound serious? Scary if #2. Berni ... From: Mike Foster This isn t
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 4, 2007
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            Mike, was it something someone had put together as a joke or did it sound
            serious? Scary if #2.

            Berni

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Mike Foster" <mafoster@...>


            This isn't quite on the order of the Ku Klux Klan pamphlet "Theoden Was
            A White Rider" that I once found shoved underneath my office door but it
            does point out that readers inclined to do so can bend a work of
            literature to fit their sociopolitical template.
          • Mike Foster
            Berni, It didn t look like a joke to me. It was a preprinted trifold one-sheet pamphlet that looked serious enough to me to pass along to college security.
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 4, 2007
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              Berni,
              It didn't look like a joke to me. It was a preprinted trifold one-sheet
              pamphlet that looked serious enough to me to pass along to college
              security. So I don't have it, and in any case, it would be one of the
              more noisome Tolkien collectibles.

              Mike

              -----Original Message-----
              From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of bernip
              Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:57 PM
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Article that mentions Tolkien

              Mike, was it something someone had put together as a joke or did it
              sound
              serious? Scary if #2.

              Berni

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Mike Foster" <mafoster@hughes. <mailto:mafoster%40hughes.net>
              net>

              This isn't quite on the order of the Ku Klux Klan pamphlet "Theoden Was
              A White Rider" that I once found shoved underneath my office door but it
              does point out that readers inclined to do so can bend a work of
              literature to fit their sociopolitical template.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lynn Maudlin
              FWIW, I think the two are miles apart... One might read Pinkerton s article and feel he misuses JRRT but I don t think he s any further off than the folks who
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 4, 2007
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                FWIW, I think the two are miles apart...

                One might read Pinkerton's article and feel he misuses JRRT but I
                don't think he's any further off than the folks who saw Tolkien as
                "green" - he's talking about what *he* gets out of Tolkien and how he
                applies it to one of the issues of the day.

                -- Lynn --


                --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Foster" <mafoster@...> wrote:
                >
                > Berni,
                > It didn't look like a joke to me. It was a preprinted trifold one-sheet
                > pamphlet that looked serious enough to me to pass along to college
                > security. So I don't have it, and in any case, it would be one of the
                > more noisome Tolkien collectibles.
                >
                > Mike
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                > Of bernip
                > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 7:57 PM
                > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Article that mentions Tolkien
                >
                > Mike, was it something someone had put together as a joke or did it
                > sound
                > serious? Scary if #2.
                >
                > Berni
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Mike Foster" <mafoster@hughes. <mailto:mafoster%40hughes.net>
                > net>
                >
                > This isn't quite on the order of the Ku Klux Klan pamphlet "Theoden Was
                > A White Rider" that I once found shoved underneath my office door but it
                > does point out that readers inclined to do so can bend a work of
                > literature to fit their sociopolitical template.
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Merlin DeTardo
                ...
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 4, 2007
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                  >--- "Lynn Maudlin" <lynnmaudlin@...> wrote:

                  << One might read Pinkerton's article and feel he misuses JRRT but I
                  don't think he's any further off than the folks who saw Tolkien
                  as "green"... >>


                  Here's one such: Tom Shippey, in his article, "Literature, Twentieth
                  Century, Influence of Tolkien", in _J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia_ (2006):

                  "If he were voting today, Tolkien would certainly vote for the Green
                  Party..."

                  -Merlin DeTardo
                • John D Rateliff
                  Thanks for the link, Wendell. I found the article itself appalling, but fascinating as an exercise in applicability . And I would have missed it altogether if
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 5, 2007
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                    Thanks for the link, Wendell. I found the article itself appalling,
                    but fascinating as an exercise in 'applicability'. And I would have
                    missed it altogether if not for your posting.
                    --JDR

                    On Dec 4, 2007, at 11:31 AM, WendellWag@... wrote:

                    > There's an article in the Readings section of _Harper's_ this month
                    > that
                    > mentions Tolkien in an interesting way. The Readings section
                    > reprints writings
                    > (or selections from writings) that the editors find important in
                    > some way,
                    > sometimes because they think it expresses a good idea, sometimes
                    > because they
                    > find the viewpoint horrifying. They make no comment themselves on
                    > what they
                    > think of it. Neither will I. It's "The Once & Future
                    > Christendom" by James
                    > P. Pinkerton from the September 10th issue of _The American
                    > Conservative_. My
                    > apologies if someone has already given a link to this.
                    >
                    > _http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2007_09_10/cover.html_
                    > (http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2007_09_10/cover.html)
                    >
                    > Wendell Wagner
                  • Lynn Maudlin
                    Assuredly JRRT was ecologically minded but I don t know that that equals Green Party voter (which, my impression from *this* side of the pond, is fairly
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 5, 2007
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                      Assuredly JRRT was ecologically minded but I don't know that that
                      equals "Green Party voter" (which, my impression from *this* side of
                      the pond, is fairly left-leaning in nearly all regards, yes?). But I
                      could have used the example of the folks who thought that pipeweed was
                      marijuana... (like Peter Jackson, perhaps?!!).

                      All due respect to Tom Shippey, but I suspect Priscilla Tolkien and
                      Christopher Tolkien would be better at surmising how JRRT would vote
                      in today's elections.

                      -- Lynn --


                      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >--- "Lynn Maudlin" <lynnmaudlin@> wrote:
                      >
                      > << One might read Pinkerton's article and feel he misuses JRRT but I
                      > don't think he's any further off than the folks who saw Tolkien
                      > as "green"... >>
                      >
                      >
                      > Here's one such: Tom Shippey, in his article, "Literature, Twentieth
                      > Century, Influence of Tolkien", in _J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia_ (2006):
                      >
                      > "If he were voting today, Tolkien would certainly vote for the Green
                      > Party..."
                      >
                      > -Merlin DeTardo
                      >
                    • David Bratman
                      I very much doubt that Tolkien would vote for the Green Party, but he was very far from being a stereotypical Tory. That his ecological views were, through a
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 5, 2007
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                        I very much doubt that Tolkien would vote for the Green Party, but he was very far from being a stereotypical Tory. That his ecological views were, through a Christian viewpoint, very green with a small "g" is, I think, adequately proven by Dickerson and Evans's "Ents, Elves, and Eriador," and also supported by Curry's "Defending Middle-earth." Using "seeing Tolkien as 'green'" as any kind of measure of "offness" in Tolkien studies is, I think, unfair and mistaken. Tolkien was entirely comparatible with being "green", as long as you do not confuse that with either of 1) voting for the Green Party; 2) adopting the lifestyle of stereotypically "green" people.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        >From: Lynn Maudlin <lynnmaudlin@...>
                        >Sent: Dec 5, 2007 9:12 PM
                        >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Article that mentions Tolkien
                        >
                        >Assuredly JRRT was ecologically minded but I don't know that that
                        >equals "Green Party voter" (which, my impression from *this* side of
                        >the pond, is fairly left-leaning in nearly all regards, yes?). But I
                        >could have used the example of the folks who thought that pipeweed was
                        >marijuana... (like Peter Jackson, perhaps?!!).
                        >
                        >All due respect to Tom Shippey, but I suspect Priscilla Tolkien and
                        >Christopher Tolkien would be better at surmising how JRRT would vote
                        >in today's elections.
                        >
                        > -- Lynn --
                        >
                        >
                        >--- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >> >--- "Lynn Maudlin" <lynnmaudlin@> wrote:
                        >>
                        >> << One might read Pinkerton's article and feel he misuses JRRT but I
                        >> don't think he's any further off than the folks who saw Tolkien
                        >> as "green"... >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Here's one such: Tom Shippey, in his article, "Literature, Twentieth
                        >> Century, Influence of Tolkien", in _J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia_ (2006):
                        >>
                        >> "If he were voting today, Tolkien would certainly vote for the Green
                        >> Party..."
                        >>
                        >> -Merlin DeTardo
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                      • Lynn Maudlin
                        Thank you for stating it so much better than I, David. I am also a little g green so I knew what I meant, however I mangled the sense! (currently throttling
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 10, 2007
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                          Thank you for stating it so much better than I, David. I am also a
                          "little g green" so I knew what I meant, however I mangled the sense!
                          (currently throttling words).

                          -- Lynn --

                          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, David Bratman <dbratman@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I very much doubt that Tolkien would vote for the Green Party, but
                          he was very far from being a stereotypical Tory. That his ecological
                          views were, through a Christian viewpoint, very green with a small "g"
                          is, I think, adequately proven by Dickerson and Evans's "Ents, Elves,
                          and Eriador," and also supported by Curry's "Defending Middle-earth."
                          Using "seeing Tolkien as 'green'" as any kind of measure of "offness"
                          in Tolkien studies is, I think, unfair and mistaken. Tolkien was
                          entirely comparatible with being "green", as long as you do not
                          confuse that with either of 1) voting for the Green Party; 2) adopting
                          the lifestyle of stereotypically "green" people.
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > >From: Lynn Maudlin <lynnmaudlin@...>
                          > >Sent: Dec 5, 2007 9:12 PM
                          > >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                          > >Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Article that mentions Tolkien
                          > >
                          > >Assuredly JRRT was ecologically minded but I don't know that that
                          > >equals "Green Party voter" (which, my impression from *this* side of
                          > >the pond, is fairly left-leaning in nearly all regards, yes?). But I
                          > >could have used the example of the folks who thought that pipeweed was
                          > >marijuana... (like Peter Jackson, perhaps?!!).
                          > >
                          > >All due respect to Tom Shippey, but I suspect Priscilla Tolkien and
                          > >Christopher Tolkien would be better at surmising how JRRT would vote
                          > >in today's elections.
                          > >
                          > > -- Lynn --
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >--- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@> wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >> >--- "Lynn Maudlin" <lynnmaudlin@> wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >> << One might read Pinkerton's article and feel he misuses JRRT
                          but I
                          > >> don't think he's any further off than the folks who saw Tolkien
                          > >> as "green"... >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >> Here's one such: Tom Shippey, in his article, "Literature, Twentieth
                          > >> Century, Influence of Tolkien", in _J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia_
                          (2006):
                          > >>
                          > >> "If he were voting today, Tolkien would certainly vote for the Green
                          > >> Party..."
                          > >>
                          > >> -Merlin DeTardo
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
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