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Re: Fw: JRR Tolkien letters for sale

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  • William Cloud Hicklin
    ... deals with Tolkiena to make that determination rather than you and me. ... It s certainly the case that an authentic JRRT signature, alone, is worth quite
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 21, 2007
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      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Larry
      Swain" <theswain@...> wrote:

      > Anyway, I'd prefer a professional archivist who
      deals with Tolkiena to make that determination
      rather than you and me.
      >

      It's certainly the case that an authentic JRRT
      signature, alone, is worth quite a bit.
    • Merlin DeTardo
      ... And thus Vincent s question, I guess, and when I first saw his post, I was glad he d asked what
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 21, 2007
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        >>---"Larry Swain" <theswain@...> wrote:
        << What you and I may find mundane and uninteresting... >>

        And thus Vincent's question, I guess, and when I first saw his post,
        I was glad he'd asked what I'd initially thought: certainly the
        letters don't look like much, to my uneducated glance. But setting
        aside the letters' value as collectibles, what use might they have
        for researchers? It might be interesting to list the possibilities --
        a holiday exercise here in the U.S. There are several subscribers
        to this list who have worked with Tolkien's manuscripts: what do they
        see in these documents? I have no such expertise myself, but will
        toss out a few notes and questions.

        The first thought that occurs to me is that Scull and Hammond's
        _Chronology_ makes it possible to slot these letters more precisely
        into other events in Tolkien's life than used to be possible. The 20
        Oct. 1965 letter to Wheeler is one of at least two that Tolkien wrote
        that day; the other was to Clyde Klby. Tolkien apparently dealt with
        a glut of correspondence at that time: he was away from approximately
        5 Oct. to 15 Oct., and also suffering an infection in his arm; he
        arrived "home to find a heap of letters awaiting him", and five days
        later, Rayner Unwin wrote him that Allen & Unwin had been
        forwarding "a constant stream of fan mail" (_Chronology_, 645).

        For the date of the second letter, 10 Jan. 1966, the _Chronology_
        (652) says only that in that week, Tolkien heard from Joy Hill that
        an agreement had been reached with Donald Swann for _The Road Goes
        Ever On_.

        On 1 Aug. 1966, the date of the third letter to Wheeler, from
        Tolkien's assistant "P.M.J." (that's Phyllis M. Jenkinson --
        _Chronology_, 648), Tolkien was again writing to Kilby (671).

        Did P.M.J. type the first two letters? S&H have her as Toklien's
        secretary by 6 Dec. 1965, postdating the first letter by two months
        (648). Is "Ballantyne" in the first letter her mistake, and is that
        Tolkien's handwritten correction of "i" for "y"?

        What prompted Tolkien's postscript there, about Ace's apparent legal
        right to sell the pirated copy of _LotR_?

        What did Wheeler want Tolkien to write? What's up with Tolkien's
        comment about his "special good wishes" being of little use to
        Wheeler?

        In Wheeler's 1987 letter to Christopher Tolkien, he says he'd sent
        JRRT two essay by Jared Lobdell, from the Aug. 1966 and July-Aug.
        1967 issues of _Rally_. The items at the Wheeler web site include
        the former article, "Words That Sound Like Castles". (I was glad of
        the opportunity to read it.) The latter article is called "From
        Middle-earth to the Silent Planet", according to Judith Johnson's
        bibiography, which also reveals that Lobdell wrote a different
        article titled "Words That Sound Like Castles" for _National Review_
        in 1967.

        But among the correspondence is a carbon copy of the letter from
        Wheeler to JRRT of 22 Aug. 1966 with which he sent the Aug. 1966
        _Rally_. There is no copy of the letter he sent with the July-Aug.
        1967 issue. However, there is a response from Tolkien's secretary of
        1 Aug. 1966 thanking Wheeler for a copy of _Rally_. Either the date
        of that letter is wrong, or Wheeler sent yet another, earlier issue
        of _Rally_ to Tolkien. Does anyone know if that's correct, and if
        so, what that issue included?

        -Merlin DeTardo
      • Vincent Ferré
        that s a very clever comment, merlin :-) but there are still so many things to say about the published letters (the selection by carpenter & ch. tolkien) and
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 22, 2007
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          that's a very clever comment, merlin :-)

          but there are still so many things to say about the published letters (the selection by carpenter & ch. tolkien) and about the most important ones among the letters that Wayne & Christina have traced, that I am still in doubt !

          very best wishes to all,
          vincent

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        • mwilt
          But setting aside the letters value as collectibles, what use might they have for researchers? It might be interesting to list the possibilities -- a holiday
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 22, 2007
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            But setting
            aside the letters' value as collectibles, what use might they have
            for researchers? It might be interesting to list the possibilities --
            a holiday exercise here in the U.S.
            ***

            Far be it from me to participate in "holiday exercises" except the raising of turkey leg to mouth. :-) However:


            ***
            The latter article is called "From
            Middle-earth to the Silent Planet", according to Judith Johnson's
            bibiography, which also reveals that Lobdell wrote a different
            article titled "Words That Sound Like Castles" for _National Review_
            in 1967.
            ***

            It might be the same article? The magazine "Rally" is described as a "Triple A Farm Team for the National Review" in the obituary for Mr. Wheeler published in the National Review (see the Wheeler personal web site for the obituary here http://www.pbase.com/csw62/image/85861087). It might be the article was published in Rally in 1966 and picked up by NR in 1967?

            mary


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          • Merlin DeTardo
            Hassles, tassels, vassals... ... A friend of mine organizes a wallyball outing annually on the
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 22, 2007
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              Hassles, tassels, vassals...

              >>--- "mwilt" <mary.wilt@...> wrote:

              << Far be it from me to participate in "holiday exercises" >>

              A friend of mine organizes a wallyball outing annually on the day
              after Thanksgiving; I guess I'm in the holiday exercise habit. Not
              that it shows. (Or rather, I have the appearance of someone who only
              exercises on the holidays.)

              << "Lobdell wrote a different article titled 'Words That Sound Like
              Castles' for _National Review_ in 1967."
              It might be the same article? The magazine "Rally" is described as
              a "Triple A Farm Team for the National Review" ... might be the
              article was published in Rally in 1966 and picked up by NR in 1967? >>

              Johnson describes the 1966 article this way:
              "Praises Tolkien's creation of languages and histories for his
              characters" (_J.R.R. Tolkien: Six Decades of Criticism_, 66).

              Her description of the 1968 article is:
              "Attacks Hodgart's criticism ... finds C.S. Lewis is the best Tolkien
              critic, and suggests Tolkien's appeal is to readers who identify with
              Tolkien's imaginative life, find echoes of their imaginations in
              their work" (77).

              Richard West's J.R.R. Tolkien: An Annotated Checklist_, Revised
              Edition, explicitly says the two are "not the same" (82).

              -Merlin DeTardo
            • mwilt
              You re right, of course (and you have access to better reference books, too!!) they are different. I found the National Review article, if you d care to see
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 22, 2007
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                You're right, of course (and you have access to better reference books,
                too!!) they are different. I found the National Review article, if you'd
                care to see it. I don't know the rules for sending an entire article to the
                list and can't link to it.

                mary


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Merlin DeTardo
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 11:58 AM
                Subject: [mythsoc] Re: "Words That Sound Like Castles"


                << "Lobdell wrote a different article titled 'Words That Sound Like
                Castles' for _National Review_ in 1967."
                It might be the same article? The magazine "Rally" is described as
                a "Triple A Farm Team for the National Review" ... might be the
                article was published in Rally in 1966 and picked up by NR in 1967? >>

                Johnson describes the 1966 article this way:
                "Praises Tolkien's creation of languages and histories for his
                characters" (_J.R.R. Tolkien: Six Decades of Criticism_, 66).

                Her description of the 1968 article is:
                "Attacks Hodgart's criticism ... finds C.S. Lewis is the best Tolkien
                critic, and suggests Tolkien's appeal is to readers who identify with
                Tolkien's imaginative life, find echoes of their imaginations in
                their work" (77).

                Richard West's J.R.R. Tolkien: An Annotated Checklist_, Revised
                Edition, explicitly says the two are "not the same" (82).
              • Andrew Higgins
                  Hello all.  I am currently on holiday in Portugal and I happened to come > across a rather interesting book in a local shop - its called O >
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 7, 2008
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                  Hello all.  I am currently on holiday in Portugal and I happened to come
                  > across a rather interesting book in a local shop - its called O
                  > Ultima Anel (The Final Ring) by a Russian Author called Kyril
                  > Yeskov.  I am in the process of studying Portuguese so my
                  > understanding of it is rather limited - but from what I can make out -
                  >  this is a Portuguese translation of a Russian book that tells the
                  > tale of the War of the Ring and aftermath from the Orcs point of
                  > view.  Orc culture is portrayed quite differntly from the information
                  > we receive through Elvish, Men and Hobbit sources and it certainly
                  > drives home the point that the victors write the histories.
                  >
                  > Be interested in knowing if anyone has read this book in any
                  > language - is it avaialble in English?  And how did the author work
                  > with the Tolkien Estate on it (or did he?).  The cover of the
                  > Portuguese edition has an illustration from Alan Lee and I have found
                  > some mention of it online - but it does not look like its been
                  > translated into English.
                  >
                  > More to come when I retrun to blighty!
                  >
                  > Thanks, Andy

                   
                   
                   















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                • WendellWag@aol.com
                  It s completely unauthorized and certain to never be translated and published in English. The only surprising thing is that it was translated and published
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 7, 2008
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                    It's completely unauthorized and certain to never be translated and
                    published in English. The only surprising thing is that it was translated and
                    published in Portuguese. Copyright laws are rather loosely enforced in Russia.
                    There have been many unauthorized sequels and such to Tolkien published there.
                    (Tolkien has been quite popular in Russia since at least the early 1990's.
                    Much authorized and unauthorized Tolkien material has appeared since then.)
                    There are also sequels to other popular authors. The Tolkien estate can
                    prevent violation of copyright laws in much of the world, but it's harder work in
                    certain places like Russia. Someone here might want to notify the Tolkien
                    estate about the Portuguese edition.

                    Wendell Wagner



                    **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
                    Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
                    (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • WendellWag@aol.com
                    The author s name is more commonly transliterated as Kirill Eskov and the book s title is commonly given in English as The Last Ringbearer. There s a
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 7, 2008
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                      The author's name is more commonly transliterated as Kirill Eskov and the
                      book's title is commonly given in English as The Last Ringbearer. There's a
                      Wikipedia entry for the author. Here's an article in English about this book
                      and other Russian reactions to Tolkien:

                      _http://media.www.thespartandaily.com/media/storage/paper852/news/2004/11/10/O
                      pinioncolumnists/lord-Of.The.Rings.Spoofs.Find.A.Russian.Following-1499947.sht
                      ml_
                      (http://media.www.thespartandaily.com/media/storage/paper852/news/2004/11/10/Opinioncolumnists/lord-Of.The.Rings.Spoofs.Find.A.Russian.Following-1499947
                      .shtml)

                      Wendell Wagner



                      **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
                      Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
                      (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • WendellWag@aol.com
                      That URL I mentioned in the last post might not come across for many of you. Try Googling for Kirill Eskov . The webpage that I m referring to is at the
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 7, 2008
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                        That URL I mentioned in the last post might not come across for many of you.
                        Try Googling for "Kirill Eskov". The webpage that I'm referring to is at
                        the bottom of the first page for that Google search.

                        Wendell Wagner



                        **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
                        Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
                        (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Grace Donaldson
                        ... and the ... Ringbearer. There s a ... about this book ... _http://media.www.thespartandaily.com/media/storage/paper852/news/200 4/11/10/O ... 1499947.sht
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 11, 2008
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                          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, WendellWag@... wrote:
                          >
                          > The author's name is more commonly transliterated as Kirill Eskov
                          and the
                          > book's title is commonly given in English as The Last
                          Ringbearer. There's a
                          > Wikipedia entry for the author. Here's an article in English
                          about this book
                          > and other Russian reactions to Tolkien:
                          >
                          >
                          _http://media.www.thespartandaily.com/media/storage/paper852/news/200
                          4/11/10/O
                          > pinioncolumnists/lord-Of.The.Rings.Spoofs.Find.A.Russian.Following-
                          1499947.sht
                          > ml_
                          >
                          (http://media.www.thespartandaily.com/media/storage/paper852/news/200
                          4/11/10/Opinioncolumnists/lord-
                          Of.The.Rings.Spoofs.Find.A.Russian.Following-1499947
                          > .shtml)

                          Ah, yes, the Goblin translations (mrntioned in one of the
                          articles)...there's something about a pickle that became a running
                          joke in my class when I was teaching LOTR in Kyrgyzstan. I tried
                          watching part of one of them, but have to confess my Russian wasn't
                          up to it; I missed most of the jokes. But my understanding was that
                          they were a kind of Russian "Weird Al" of films.

                          I have an authorized Russian translation of LOTR, but was appalled
                          to discover that a common (unauthorized) cheap paperback translation
                          chopped off the chapters in which Frodo and Sam encounter Boromir --
                          so my students who read that version weren't the least appalled by
                          the slaughtering of Boromir's character that Jackson did in the film.

                          I wasn't aware of Eskov's work; I'd be interested in struggling
                          through it in the original; maybe if I get a copy and can make it to
                          another Mythcon, I can provide unauthorized (and no doubt very poor)
                          translations of it to any who want to hear.

                          Grace
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