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Re: [mythsoc] Fw: JRR Tolkien letters for sale

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  • Larry Swain
    Might I recommend getting in touch with the Marion Wade Center at Wheaton College, Wheaton, IL or the library at Marquette University, Milwaukee, WI as
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 21, 2007
      Might I recommend getting in touch with the Marion Wade Center at Wheaton College, Wheaton, IL or the library at Marquette University, Milwaukee, WI as appropriate places for these letters.

      Larry Swain
      >
      > FYI, collectors...
      > ----- Forwarded by Edith Crowe/SJSU on 11/21/2007 08:44 AM -----
      >
      > Christopher Wheeler <cwheeler62@...>
      > 11/21/2007 12:04 AM
      >
      > To
      > <correspondence@...>
      > cc
      >
      > Subject
      > JRR Tolkien letters
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Greetings.
      >
      > Our father, Timothy J. Wheeler, corresponded with J.R.R. Tolkien in the
      > 1960s. He died recently, leaving us the correspondence and some related
      > Tolkien ephemera. After much consideration, my siblings and I have elected
      > to sell the lot.
      >
      > If you or anyone you know is interested, please let me know. Scans of all
      > the pieces are viewable on the internet at the following URL:
      > http://www.pbase.com/csw62/tolkien . (For more about our dad, visit
      > http://www.pbase.com/csw62/dad ).
      >
      > The originals are with my sister in New Jersey. I would be happy to answer
      > any questions to the best of my ability.
      >
      > Regards,
      > ?Christopher S. Wheeler
      >
      > Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. Share now!
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >

      >


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    • Vincent Ferré
      excuse-me, but do you really find these letters interesting ? tolkien says... that he won t write anything. the second letter is very funny in this respect.
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 21, 2007
        excuse-me, but do you really find these letters interesting ? tolkien says... that he won't write anything. the second letter is very funny in this respect.

        best,
        vincent


        >Might I recommend getting in touch with the Marion Wade Center at Wheaton College, Wheaton, IL or the library at Marquette University, Milwaukee, WI as appropriate places for these letters.

        Larry Swain


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Larry Swain
        ... Vince, I only gave them a cursory glance, but the question is immaterial to my suggestion. What you and I may find mundane and uninteresting to another
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 21, 2007
          >
          >
          > excuse-me, but do you really find these letters interesting ?
          > tolkien says... that he won't write anything. the second letter is
          > very funny in this respect.

          Vince,
          I only gave them a cursory glance, but the question is immaterial to my suggestion. What you and I may find mundane and uninteresting to another research may be the find of a lifetime. I myself am writing on a letter by an author that everyone has dismissed and I've found enough material to rewrite a number of key points in the author's career and life. I'm not saying these letters are like that, but.....

          Anyway, I'd prefer a professional archivist who deals with Tolkiena to make that determination rather than you and me.

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        • William Cloud Hicklin
          ... deals with Tolkiena to make that determination rather than you and me. ... It s certainly the case that an authentic JRRT signature, alone, is worth quite
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 21, 2007
            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Larry
            Swain" <theswain@...> wrote:

            > Anyway, I'd prefer a professional archivist who
            deals with Tolkiena to make that determination
            rather than you and me.
            >

            It's certainly the case that an authentic JRRT
            signature, alone, is worth quite a bit.
          • Merlin DeTardo
            ... And thus Vincent s question, I guess, and when I first saw his post, I was glad he d asked what
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 21, 2007
              >>---"Larry Swain" <theswain@...> wrote:
              << What you and I may find mundane and uninteresting... >>

              And thus Vincent's question, I guess, and when I first saw his post,
              I was glad he'd asked what I'd initially thought: certainly the
              letters don't look like much, to my uneducated glance. But setting
              aside the letters' value as collectibles, what use might they have
              for researchers? It might be interesting to list the possibilities --
              a holiday exercise here in the U.S. There are several subscribers
              to this list who have worked with Tolkien's manuscripts: what do they
              see in these documents? I have no such expertise myself, but will
              toss out a few notes and questions.

              The first thought that occurs to me is that Scull and Hammond's
              _Chronology_ makes it possible to slot these letters more precisely
              into other events in Tolkien's life than used to be possible. The 20
              Oct. 1965 letter to Wheeler is one of at least two that Tolkien wrote
              that day; the other was to Clyde Klby. Tolkien apparently dealt with
              a glut of correspondence at that time: he was away from approximately
              5 Oct. to 15 Oct., and also suffering an infection in his arm; he
              arrived "home to find a heap of letters awaiting him", and five days
              later, Rayner Unwin wrote him that Allen & Unwin had been
              forwarding "a constant stream of fan mail" (_Chronology_, 645).

              For the date of the second letter, 10 Jan. 1966, the _Chronology_
              (652) says only that in that week, Tolkien heard from Joy Hill that
              an agreement had been reached with Donald Swann for _The Road Goes
              Ever On_.

              On 1 Aug. 1966, the date of the third letter to Wheeler, from
              Tolkien's assistant "P.M.J." (that's Phyllis M. Jenkinson --
              _Chronology_, 648), Tolkien was again writing to Kilby (671).

              Did P.M.J. type the first two letters? S&H have her as Toklien's
              secretary by 6 Dec. 1965, postdating the first letter by two months
              (648). Is "Ballantyne" in the first letter her mistake, and is that
              Tolkien's handwritten correction of "i" for "y"?

              What prompted Tolkien's postscript there, about Ace's apparent legal
              right to sell the pirated copy of _LotR_?

              What did Wheeler want Tolkien to write? What's up with Tolkien's
              comment about his "special good wishes" being of little use to
              Wheeler?

              In Wheeler's 1987 letter to Christopher Tolkien, he says he'd sent
              JRRT two essay by Jared Lobdell, from the Aug. 1966 and July-Aug.
              1967 issues of _Rally_. The items at the Wheeler web site include
              the former article, "Words That Sound Like Castles". (I was glad of
              the opportunity to read it.) The latter article is called "From
              Middle-earth to the Silent Planet", according to Judith Johnson's
              bibiography, which also reveals that Lobdell wrote a different
              article titled "Words That Sound Like Castles" for _National Review_
              in 1967.

              But among the correspondence is a carbon copy of the letter from
              Wheeler to JRRT of 22 Aug. 1966 with which he sent the Aug. 1966
              _Rally_. There is no copy of the letter he sent with the July-Aug.
              1967 issue. However, there is a response from Tolkien's secretary of
              1 Aug. 1966 thanking Wheeler for a copy of _Rally_. Either the date
              of that letter is wrong, or Wheeler sent yet another, earlier issue
              of _Rally_ to Tolkien. Does anyone know if that's correct, and if
              so, what that issue included?

              -Merlin DeTardo
            • Vincent Ferré
              that s a very clever comment, merlin :-) but there are still so many things to say about the published letters (the selection by carpenter & ch. tolkien) and
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 22, 2007
                that's a very clever comment, merlin :-)

                but there are still so many things to say about the published letters (the selection by carpenter & ch. tolkien) and about the most important ones among the letters that Wayne & Christina have traced, that I am still in doubt !

                very best wishes to all,
                vincent

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • mwilt
                But setting aside the letters value as collectibles, what use might they have for researchers? It might be interesting to list the possibilities -- a holiday
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 22, 2007
                  But setting
                  aside the letters' value as collectibles, what use might they have
                  for researchers? It might be interesting to list the possibilities --
                  a holiday exercise here in the U.S.
                  ***

                  Far be it from me to participate in "holiday exercises" except the raising of turkey leg to mouth. :-) However:


                  ***
                  The latter article is called "From
                  Middle-earth to the Silent Planet", according to Judith Johnson's
                  bibiography, which also reveals that Lobdell wrote a different
                  article titled "Words That Sound Like Castles" for _National Review_
                  in 1967.
                  ***

                  It might be the same article? The magazine "Rally" is described as a "Triple A Farm Team for the National Review" in the obituary for Mr. Wheeler published in the National Review (see the Wheeler personal web site for the obituary here http://www.pbase.com/csw62/image/85861087). It might be the article was published in Rally in 1966 and picked up by NR in 1967?

                  mary


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Merlin DeTardo
                  Hassles, tassels, vassals... ... A friend of mine organizes a wallyball outing annually on the
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 22, 2007
                    Hassles, tassels, vassals...

                    >>--- "mwilt" <mary.wilt@...> wrote:

                    << Far be it from me to participate in "holiday exercises" >>

                    A friend of mine organizes a wallyball outing annually on the day
                    after Thanksgiving; I guess I'm in the holiday exercise habit. Not
                    that it shows. (Or rather, I have the appearance of someone who only
                    exercises on the holidays.)

                    << "Lobdell wrote a different article titled 'Words That Sound Like
                    Castles' for _National Review_ in 1967."
                    It might be the same article? The magazine "Rally" is described as
                    a "Triple A Farm Team for the National Review" ... might be the
                    article was published in Rally in 1966 and picked up by NR in 1967? >>

                    Johnson describes the 1966 article this way:
                    "Praises Tolkien's creation of languages and histories for his
                    characters" (_J.R.R. Tolkien: Six Decades of Criticism_, 66).

                    Her description of the 1968 article is:
                    "Attacks Hodgart's criticism ... finds C.S. Lewis is the best Tolkien
                    critic, and suggests Tolkien's appeal is to readers who identify with
                    Tolkien's imaginative life, find echoes of their imaginations in
                    their work" (77).

                    Richard West's J.R.R. Tolkien: An Annotated Checklist_, Revised
                    Edition, explicitly says the two are "not the same" (82).

                    -Merlin DeTardo
                  • mwilt
                    You re right, of course (and you have access to better reference books, too!!) they are different. I found the National Review article, if you d care to see
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 22, 2007
                      You're right, of course (and you have access to better reference books,
                      too!!) they are different. I found the National Review article, if you'd
                      care to see it. I don't know the rules for sending an entire article to the
                      list and can't link to it.

                      mary


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Merlin DeTardo
                      To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 11:58 AM
                      Subject: [mythsoc] Re: "Words That Sound Like Castles"


                      << "Lobdell wrote a different article titled 'Words That Sound Like
                      Castles' for _National Review_ in 1967."
                      It might be the same article? The magazine "Rally" is described as
                      a "Triple A Farm Team for the National Review" ... might be the
                      article was published in Rally in 1966 and picked up by NR in 1967? >>

                      Johnson describes the 1966 article this way:
                      "Praises Tolkien's creation of languages and histories for his
                      characters" (_J.R.R. Tolkien: Six Decades of Criticism_, 66).

                      Her description of the 1968 article is:
                      "Attacks Hodgart's criticism ... finds C.S. Lewis is the best Tolkien
                      critic, and suggests Tolkien's appeal is to readers who identify with
                      Tolkien's imaginative life, find echoes of their imaginations in
                      their work" (77).

                      Richard West's J.R.R. Tolkien: An Annotated Checklist_, Revised
                      Edition, explicitly says the two are "not the same" (82).
                    • Andrew Higgins
                        Hello all.  I am currently on holiday in Portugal and I happened to come > across a rather interesting book in a local shop - its called O >
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 7, 2008
                         
                        Hello all.  I am currently on holiday in Portugal and I happened to come
                        > across a rather interesting book in a local shop - its called O
                        > Ultima Anel (The Final Ring) by a Russian Author called Kyril
                        > Yeskov.  I am in the process of studying Portuguese so my
                        > understanding of it is rather limited - but from what I can make out -
                        >  this is a Portuguese translation of a Russian book that tells the
                        > tale of the War of the Ring and aftermath from the Orcs point of
                        > view.  Orc culture is portrayed quite differntly from the information
                        > we receive through Elvish, Men and Hobbit sources and it certainly
                        > drives home the point that the victors write the histories.
                        >
                        > Be interested in knowing if anyone has read this book in any
                        > language - is it avaialble in English?  And how did the author work
                        > with the Tolkien Estate on it (or did he?).  The cover of the
                        > Portuguese edition has an illustration from Alan Lee and I have found
                        > some mention of it online - but it does not look like its been
                        > translated into English.
                        >
                        > More to come when I retrun to blighty!
                        >
                        > Thanks, Andy

                         
                         
                         















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                      • WendellWag@aol.com
                        It s completely unauthorized and certain to never be translated and published in English. The only surprising thing is that it was translated and published
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 7, 2008
                          It's completely unauthorized and certain to never be translated and
                          published in English. The only surprising thing is that it was translated and
                          published in Portuguese. Copyright laws are rather loosely enforced in Russia.
                          There have been many unauthorized sequels and such to Tolkien published there.
                          (Tolkien has been quite popular in Russia since at least the early 1990's.
                          Much authorized and unauthorized Tolkien material has appeared since then.)
                          There are also sequels to other popular authors. The Tolkien estate can
                          prevent violation of copyright laws in much of the world, but it's harder work in
                          certain places like Russia. Someone here might want to notify the Tolkien
                          estate about the Portuguese edition.

                          Wendell Wagner



                          **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
                          Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
                          (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • WendellWag@aol.com
                          The author s name is more commonly transliterated as Kirill Eskov and the book s title is commonly given in English as The Last Ringbearer. There s a
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 7, 2008
                            The author's name is more commonly transliterated as Kirill Eskov and the
                            book's title is commonly given in English as The Last Ringbearer. There's a
                            Wikipedia entry for the author. Here's an article in English about this book
                            and other Russian reactions to Tolkien:

                            _http://media.www.thespartandaily.com/media/storage/paper852/news/2004/11/10/O
                            pinioncolumnists/lord-Of.The.Rings.Spoofs.Find.A.Russian.Following-1499947.sht
                            ml_
                            (http://media.www.thespartandaily.com/media/storage/paper852/news/2004/11/10/Opinioncolumnists/lord-Of.The.Rings.Spoofs.Find.A.Russian.Following-1499947
                            .shtml)

                            Wendell Wagner



                            **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
                            Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
                            (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • WendellWag@aol.com
                            That URL I mentioned in the last post might not come across for many of you. Try Googling for Kirill Eskov . The webpage that I m referring to is at the
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jun 7, 2008
                              That URL I mentioned in the last post might not come across for many of you.
                              Try Googling for "Kirill Eskov". The webpage that I'm referring to is at
                              the bottom of the first page for that Google search.

                              Wendell Wagner



                              **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
                              Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
                              (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002)


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Grace Donaldson
                              ... and the ... Ringbearer. There s a ... about this book ... _http://media.www.thespartandaily.com/media/storage/paper852/news/200 4/11/10/O ... 1499947.sht
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jun 11, 2008
                                --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, WendellWag@... wrote:
                                >
                                > The author's name is more commonly transliterated as Kirill Eskov
                                and the
                                > book's title is commonly given in English as The Last
                                Ringbearer. There's a
                                > Wikipedia entry for the author. Here's an article in English
                                about this book
                                > and other Russian reactions to Tolkien:
                                >
                                >
                                _http://media.www.thespartandaily.com/media/storage/paper852/news/200
                                4/11/10/O
                                > pinioncolumnists/lord-Of.The.Rings.Spoofs.Find.A.Russian.Following-
                                1499947.sht
                                > ml_
                                >
                                (http://media.www.thespartandaily.com/media/storage/paper852/news/200
                                4/11/10/Opinioncolumnists/lord-
                                Of.The.Rings.Spoofs.Find.A.Russian.Following-1499947
                                > .shtml)

                                Ah, yes, the Goblin translations (mrntioned in one of the
                                articles)...there's something about a pickle that became a running
                                joke in my class when I was teaching LOTR in Kyrgyzstan. I tried
                                watching part of one of them, but have to confess my Russian wasn't
                                up to it; I missed most of the jokes. But my understanding was that
                                they were a kind of Russian "Weird Al" of films.

                                I have an authorized Russian translation of LOTR, but was appalled
                                to discover that a common (unauthorized) cheap paperback translation
                                chopped off the chapters in which Frodo and Sam encounter Boromir --
                                so my students who read that version weren't the least appalled by
                                the slaughtering of Boromir's character that Jackson did in the film.

                                I wasn't aware of Eskov's work; I'd be interested in struggling
                                through it in the original; maybe if I get a copy and can make it to
                                another Mythcon, I can provide unauthorized (and no doubt very poor)
                                translations of it to any who want to hear.

                                Grace
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