Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [mythsoc] Re: Smith of Wootton Major as beloved book of childhood

Expand Messages
  • David Bratman
    ... I ll just bet you do. I m looking forward to seeing the article. Do you venture ideas of exactly what it is in MacDonald that earned Tolkien s distaste?
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 22, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...> wrote:

      >I also undertake some (perfunctory) comparison of
      >Tolkien's fiction for children with MacDonald's, and
      >I even dare to venture some character analysis of
      >Tolkien, vis-à-vis the souring of his attitude toward MacDonald.

      I'll just bet you do. I'm looking forward to seeing the article. Do you venture ideas of exactly what it is in MacDonald that earned Tolkien's distaste?
    • Jason Fisher
      ... I suppose it depends on just what you mean by exactly , hahae. But yes, I take a stab at it. As much as an eight-page comparison permitted — and as much
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 22, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        > --- David Bratman wrote ---
        > I'm looking forward to seeing the article. Do you venture
        > ideas of exactly what it is in MacDonald that earned
        > Tolkien's distaste?

        I suppose it depends on just what you mean by "exactly", hahae. But yes, I take a stab at it. As much as an eight-page comparison permitted — and as much as the evidence available to me supported. It's a jumping-off point for further, more involved research I would like to complete on the subject. Maybe it will spark some wider interest in comparative studies of the two as well. I hope so.

        And I will certainly welcome any thoughts — complimentary or critical — when you get a chance to read it, David.

        Jason
      • William Cloud Hicklin
        Although my teeneaged self pre-ordered the Silmarillion and even marked on the calendar the day I could triumphantly collect it at Waldenbooks, and I loved it
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 23, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Although my teeneaged self pre-ordered the Silmarillion
          and even marked on the calendar the day I could
          triumphantly collect it at Waldenbooks, and I loved it
          from the start (unlike, I expect, many< I didn't then
          fully apprecioate it. It took perhaps collegiate study
          in both philosophy and Old English to enable deeper
          levels of understanding.

          I think for a considerable time I valued the Sil as too
          many still do: as mere backstory to The LR, the
          Appendices extended, an infodump, a mine of trivia.
          Substantial appreciation of its grandeur as a whole, of
          the elegance of its convoluted web of cause and long-
          delayed effect, of its powerful meditations on the nature
          of Evil, really began to dawn when I read it on a long,
          long deployment at sea in the Navy.

          Nowadays I don't believe the two can be ranked relative
          to one another: they are simply too different. I suppose
          that if one views The Lord of the Rings as Tolkien's 9th
          Symphony, glorious, uplifting, at times ferocious,
          inspiring, spiritual, but nonetheless 'popular'; then the
          Sil is his Late Quartets: spare, un-'popular',
          discursive, numinous in a manner harder to pin down,
          uncompromisingly driven by its own unique internal
          logic...and unfinished.
        • Walter Padgett
          Wow. That s really heavy. That s the best thing I ve read all day. Thanks for rendering so eloquently your profound appreciation. I especially like your
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 23, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Wow. That's really heavy. That's the best thing I've read all day.

            Thanks for rendering so eloquently your profound appreciation.

            I especially like your observation of "the elegance of its convoluted
            web of cause and long-delayed effect."

            I feel that _The Silmarillion_ is like a fine wine, or maybe a fine
            esoteric blend of tobacco, or chese or something like that. First
            you've got to develop a taste for that, and then as your sensibilities
            become more refined your appreciation of it becomes more substantial.

            There seems something quite romantic about your experience with _The
            Silmarillion_ on that long deployment at sea.

            Wonderful.

            On 10/23/07, William Cloud Hicklin <solicitr@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Although my teeneaged self pre-ordered the Silmarillion
            > and even marked on the calendar the day I could
            > triumphantly collect it at Waldenbooks, and I loved it
            > from the start (unlike, I expect, many< I didn't then
            > fully apprecioate it. It took perhaps collegiate study
            > in both philosophy and Old English to enable deeper
            > levels of understanding.
            >
            > I think for a considerable time I valued the Sil as too
            > many still do: as mere backstory to The LR, the
            > Appendices extended, an infodump, a mine of trivia.
            > Substantial appreciation of its grandeur as a whole, of
            > the elegance of its convoluted web of cause and long-
            > delayed effect, of its powerful meditations on the nature
            > of Evil, really began to dawn when I read it on a long,
            > long deployment at sea in the Navy.
            >
            > Nowadays I don't believe the two can be ranked relative
            > to one another: they are simply too different. I suppose
            > that if one views The Lord of the Rings as Tolkien's 9th
            > Symphony, glorious, uplifting, at times ferocious,
            > inspiring, spiritual, but nonetheless 'popular'; then the
            > Sil is his Late Quartets: spare, un-'popular',
            > discursive, numinous in a manner harder to pin down,
            > uncompromisingly driven by its own unique internal
            > logic...and unfinished.
            >
            >
          • William Cloud Hicklin
            ... your experience with _The ... Well, there s an added resonance to all the stuff about Ulmo and water when there s nothing to look at but ocean, day after
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 24, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Walter
              Padgett" <wpadgett@...> wrote:

              > There seems something quite romantic about
              your experience with _The
              > Silmarillion_ on that long deployment at sea.
              >


              Well, there's an added resonance to all the stuff about
              Ulmo and water when there's nothing to look at but ocean,
              day after day after day....... :)
            • Walter Padgett
              I thought it was MacDonald s grand-fatherly uncular stance that earned Tolkien s distaste, and that Tolkien saw some of this in his own writing in _The
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 25, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                I thought it was MacDonald's grand-fatherly "uncular" stance that earned
                Tolkien's distaste, and that Tolkien saw some of this in his own writing in
                _The Hobbit_, detesting it all the more. But where I read that, I can't
                remember.

                On 10/22/07, Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...> wrote:
                >
                > > --- David Bratman wrote ---
                > > I'm looking forward to seeing the article. Do you venture
                > > ideas of exactly what it is in MacDonald that earned
                > > Tolkien's distaste?
                >
                > I suppose it depends on just what you mean by "exactly", hahae. But yes, I
                > take a stab at it. As much as an eight-page comparison permitted � and as
                > much as the evidence available to me supported. It's a jumping-off point for
                > further, more involved research I would like to complete on the subject.
                > Maybe it will spark some wider interest in comparative studies of the two as
                > well. I hope so.
                >
                > And I will certainly welcome any thoughts � complimentary or critical �
                > when you get a chance to read it, David.
                >
                > Jason
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Walter Padgett
                Oops! the word is avuncular (`_ ;) ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 25, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Oops! the word is "avuncular" (`_';)






                  On 10/25/07, Walter Padgett <wpadgett@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I thought it was MacDonald's grand-fatherly "uncular" stance that earned
                  > Tolkien's distaste, and that Tolkien saw some of this in his own writing in
                  > _The Hobbit_, detesting it all the more. But where I read that, I can't
                  > remember.
                  >
                  > On 10/22/07, Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > --- David Bratman wrote ---
                  > > > I'm looking forward to seeing the article. Do you venture
                  > > > ideas of exactly what it is in MacDonald that earned
                  > > > Tolkien's distaste?
                  > >
                  > > I suppose it depends on just what you mean by "exactly", hahae. But yes,
                  > > I take a stab at it. As much as an eight-page comparison permitted � and as
                  > > much as the evidence available to me supported. It's a jumping-off point for
                  > > further, more involved research I would like to complete on the subject.
                  > > Maybe it will spark some wider interest in comparative studies of the two as
                  > > well. I hope so.
                  > >
                  > > And I will certainly welcome any thoughts � complimentary or critical �
                  > > when you get a chance to read it, David.
                  > >
                  > > Jason
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Vincent Ferré
                  and do not forget Gandalf, in The Lord..., according to his depiction by Tolkien : Though he may seem testy at times, has a sense of humour, and adopts a
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 25, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    and do not forget Gandalf, in The Lord..., according to his depiction by
                    Tolkien :

                    "Though he may seem testy at times, has a sense of humour, and adopts a
                    somewhat avuncular attitude to hobbits, he is a person of high and noble
                    authority, and great dignity. The description on I p. 239 should never be
                    forgotten"
                    (Letters #210)

                    Vincent

                    >
                    I thought it was MacDonald's grand-fatherly "uncular" stance that earned
                    Tolkien's distaste, and that Tolkien saw some of this in his own writing in
                    _The Hobbit_, detesting it all the more. But where I read that, I can't
                    remember.
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.