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Re: [mythsoc] Mystical Realms Newsletter for October, 2007

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  • John D Rateliff
    ... I have never heard this theory before, of the Elves being modeled on medieval Xian monks. Can you point me towards a source? I shd have thought the Tuatha
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 13, 2007
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      On Oct 4, 2007, at 5:48 AM, jef.murray wrote:
      > Tolkien's Elves were immortal, and so they were, as such, natural
      > guardians of history and wisdom. But Tolkien modeled these mythical
      > beings after the Benedictine monks of Europe. The western monastic
      > tradition, which began with the Rule of St. Benedict, spread
      > throughout Europe during the Dark Ages.

      I have never heard this theory before, of the Elves being modeled on
      medieval Xian monks. Can you point me towards a source? I shd have
      thought the Tuatha de Danaan a closer parallel than the Benedictines.
      --John R.
      (sorry to be slow in responding, but I've been away in the Midwest
      and am just starting to play catch-up on my email)

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Diane Joy Baker
      I just saw *Mr. Baggins* and *Return to Bag End* under the rubric title *History of the Hobbit* at a local Barnes and Noble. Your name on the cover. (Or it
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 15, 2007
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        I just saw *Mr. Baggins* and *Return to Bag End* under the rubric title *History of the Hobbit* at a local Barnes and Noble. Your name on the cover. (Or it looked like it!) Congratulations!

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: John D Rateliff
        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 8:19 PM
        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Mystical Realms Newsletter for October, 2007


        On Oct 4, 2007, at 5:48 AM, jef.murray wrote:
        > Tolkien's Elves were immortal, and so they were, as such, natural
        > guardians of history and wisdom. But Tolkien modeled these mythical
        > beings after the Benedictine monks of Europe. The western monastic
        > tradition, which began with the Rule of St. Benedict, spread
        > throughout Europe during the Dark Ages.

        I have never heard this theory before, of the Elves being modeled on
        medieval Xian monks. Can you point me towards a source? I shd have
        thought the Tuatha de Danaan a closer parallel than the Benedictines.
        --John R.
        (sorry to be slow in responding, but I've been away in the Midwest
        and am just starting to play catch-up on my email)

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Cathy Akers-Jordan
        It s on Amazon, too (and at the top of my Christmas wish list)! http://www.amazon.com/History-Hobbit-John-D-Rateliff/dp/0618964401/ref=s
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 16, 2007
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          It's on Amazon, too (and at the top of my Christmas wish list)!

          http://www.amazon.com/History-Hobbit-John-D-Rateliff/dp/0618964401/ref=s\
          r_1_1/102-4588528-6192148?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192539022&sr=1-1

          Cathy

          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Diane Joy Baker" <dbaker021@...> wrote:
          >
          > I just saw *Mr. Baggins* and *Return to Bag End* under the rubric
          title *History of the Hobbit* at a local Barnes and Noble. Your name on
          the cover. (Or it looked like it!) Congratulations!
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: John D Rateliff
          > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 8:19 PM
          > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Mystical Realms Newsletter for October, 2007
          >
          >
          > On Oct 4, 2007, at 5:48 AM, jef.murray wrote:
          > > Tolkien's Elves were immortal, and so they were, as such, natural
          > > guardians of history and wisdom. But Tolkien modeled these
          mythical
          > > beings after the Benedictine monks of Europe. The western monastic
          > > tradition, which began with the Rule of St. Benedict, spread
          > > throughout Europe during the Dark Ages.
          >
          > I have never heard this theory before, of the Elves being modeled on
          > medieval Xian monks. Can you point me towards a source? I shd have
          > thought the Tuatha de Danaan a closer parallel than the
          Benedictines.
          > --John R.
          > (sorry to be slow in responding, but I've been away in the Midwest
          > and am just starting to play catch-up on my email)
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Jef Murray
          John, I am reasonably sure that my comments about Tolkien s elves being modeled, in part, after the Benedictines was mentioned by Professor Bradley J. Birzer
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 16, 2007
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            John,

            I am reasonably sure that my comments about
            Tolkien's elves being modeled, in part, after the
            Benedictines was mentioned by Professor Bradley J.
            Birzer in his "J. R. R. Tolkien’s Sanctifying Myth:
            Understanding Middle-earth". In that book, as I
            recall, Prof. Birzer suggests that the Benedictines
            provided a model for the elves that would have been
            very familiar to Tolkien, and that the liturgical
            chanting of the Benedictines may have served as a
            model for the prominently-featured singing of the
            elves.

            I don't recollect without the book in my hands
            whether or not his comments were derived from JRRT's
            letters, but I should be able to find out. Will see
            about coming up with a page reference for you....

            Jef




            ===================================================================
            Mystical Realms - Exploring the boundaries between worlds.....
            http://www.JefMurray.com
            ===================================================================
          • John D Rateliff
            Thanks Jef; knowing it was in the Birzer book --which I have but have not yet read-- is enough; I ll slip a note into the book reminding me of the fact and be
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 17, 2007
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              Thanks Jef; knowing it was in the Birzer book --which I have but have
              not yet read-- is enough; I'll slip a note into the book reminding me
              of the fact and be on the lookout for it when I do get around to
              reading it.
              Again, thanks for the follow-up. It's an interesting idea, and I
              want to see how good a case Prof. Birzer makes for it.
              --John R.

              On Oct 16, 2007, at 7:01 AM, Jef Murray wrote:

              > John,
              >
              > I am reasonably sure that my comments about
              > Tolkien's elves being modeled, in part, after the
              > Benedictines was mentioned by Professor Bradley J.
              > Birzer in his "J. R. R. Tolkien’s Sanctifying Myth:
              > Understanding Middle-earth". In that book, as I
              > recall, Prof. Birzer suggests that the Benedictines
              > provided a model for the elves that would have been
              > very familiar to Tolkien, and that the liturgical
              > chanting of the Benedictines may have served as a
              > model for the prominently-featured singing of the
              > elves.
              >
              > I don't recollect without the book in my hands
              > whether or not his comments were derived from JRRT's
              > letters, but I should be able to find out. Will see
              > about coming up with a page reference for you....
              >
              > Jef
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ===================================================================
              > Mystical Realms - Exploring the boundaries between worlds.....
              > http://www.JefMurray.com
              > ===================================================================
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Keith Sutherland
              My wife noticed your posts and we are currently having a debate about the subject. My wife thanks you also. ...
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 17, 2007
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                My wife noticed your posts and we are currently having
                a debate about the subject. My wife thanks you also.

                --- John D Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:

                > Thanks Jef; knowing it was in the Birzer book
                > --which I have but have
                > not yet read-- is enough; I'll slip a note into the
                > book reminding me
                > of the fact and be on the lookout for it when I do
                > get around to
                > reading it.
                > Again, thanks for the follow-up. It's an
                > interesting idea, and I
                > want to see how good a case Prof. Birzer makes for
                > it.
                > --John R.
                >
                > On Oct 16, 2007, at 7:01 AM, Jef Murray wrote:
                >
                > > John,
                > >
                > > I am reasonably sure that my comments about
                > > Tolkien's elves being modeled, in part, after the
                > > Benedictines was mentioned by Professor Bradley J.
                > > Birzer in his "J. R. R. Tolkien’s Sanctifying
                > Myth:
                > > Understanding Middle-earth". In that book, as I
                > > recall, Prof. Birzer suggests that the
                > Benedictines
                > > provided a model for the elves that would have
                > been
                > > very familiar to Tolkien, and that the liturgical
                > > chanting of the Benedictines may have served as a
                > > model for the prominently-featured singing of the
                > > elves.
                > >
                > > I don't recollect without the book in my hands
                > > whether or not his comments were derived from
                > JRRT's
                > > letters, but I should be able to find out. Will
                > see
                > > about coming up with a page reference for you....
                > >
                > > Jef
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                ===================================================================
                > > Mystical Realms - Exploring the boundaries
                > between worlds.....
                > > http://www.JefMurray.com
                > >
                >
                ===================================================================
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > The Mythopoeic Society website
                > http://www.mythsoc.org
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > The Mythopoeic Society website
                > http://www.mythsoc.org
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


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              • Lynn Maudlin
                John, you just gave me a useful glimpse into how a scholar might stay on top of the massive pile of books that swarm at his feet... slipping a note inside,
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 19, 2007
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                  John, you just gave me a useful glimpse into how a scholar might stay
                  on top of the massive pile of books that swarm at his feet... slipping
                  a note inside, reminding you to look for a certain passage or element.
                  I slap my own forehead and say, "Doh!"

                  -- Lynn --

                  --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks Jef; knowing it was in the Birzer book --which I have but have
                  > not yet read-- is enough; I'll slip a note into the book reminding me
                  > of the fact and be on the lookout for it when I do get around to
                  > reading it.
                  > Again, thanks for the follow-up. It's an interesting idea, and I
                  > want to see how good a case Prof. Birzer makes for it.
                  > --John R.
                  >
                  > On Oct 16, 2007, at 7:01 AM, Jef Murray wrote:
                  >
                  > > John,
                  > >
                  > > I am reasonably sure that my comments about
                  > > Tolkien's elves being modeled, in part, after the
                  > > Benedictines was mentioned by Professor Bradley J.
                  > > Birzer in his "J. R. R. Tolkien's Sanctifying Myth:
                  > > Understanding Middle-earth". In that book, as I
                  > > recall, Prof. Birzer suggests that the Benedictines
                  > > provided a model for the elves that would have been
                  > > very familiar to Tolkien, and that the liturgical
                  > > chanting of the Benedictines may have served as a
                  > > model for the prominently-featured singing of the
                  > > elves.
                  > >
                  > > I don't recollect without the book in my hands
                  > > whether or not his comments were derived from JRRT's
                  > > letters, but I should be able to find out. Will see
                  > > about coming up with a page reference for you....
                  > >
                  > > Jef
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ===================================================================
                  > > Mystical Realms - Exploring the boundaries between worlds.....
                  > > http://www.JefMurray.com
                  > > ===================================================================
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Anthony and Jessica
                  Anyone else, perhaps John, seen this box set? Actually just the edition that comes with the two history volumes? I have it here and am rereading The Hobbit, as
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 20, 2007
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                    Anyone else, perhaps John, seen this box set? Actually just the
                    edition that comes with the two history volumes? I have it here and am
                    rereading The Hobbit, as the art and contents of John's volumes have
                    inspired me to do so and will review it a bit with the vols, but two
                    glaring errors have appeared--not entirely that bad but noticeable to
                    those paying attention:

                    1) It states that the text of this edition is based on the 1995 Harper
                    Collins publication. On page 20 Thorin pulls out the map to show
                    everyone, and the usual paranthetical(sp?) reference
                    (Look at the map in this chapter, and you will see there the runes in
                    red)
                    As we know from Doug Anderson's Annotated Hobbit this line has been
                    changed numerous times over the years to reflect the edition--it has
                    been glossed over for this one,--the map in no in the chapter but on
                    the inside covers, which are beautifully rendered but not in the
                    chapter as stated.

                    2) In the Barrels out of Bond Chapter on facing page 172 is the "Bilbo
                    comes to the Huts of the Raft elves" color illustration plate--my copy
                    has two of the same page--now this may be a glitch in binding and may
                    be unique to my copy but I am curious if others have seen this.

                    So that's all I got right now but am curious to thoughts...

                    Anthony


                    --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Akers-Jordan" <melisande@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > It's on Amazon, too (and at the top of my Christmas wish list)!
                    >
                    >
                    http://www.amazon.com/History-Hobbit-John-D-Rateliff/dp/0618964401/ref=s\
                    > r_1_1/102-4588528-6192148?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192539022&sr=1-1
                    >
                    > Cathy
                    >
                    > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Diane Joy Baker" <dbaker021@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I just saw *Mr. Baggins* and *Return to Bag End* under the rubric
                    > title *History of the Hobbit* at a local Barnes and Noble. Your name on
                    > the cover. (Or it looked like it!) Congratulations!
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: John D Rateliff
                    > > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 8:19 PM
                    > > Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Mystical Realms Newsletter for October, 2007
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On Oct 4, 2007, at 5:48 AM, jef.murray wrote:
                    > > > Tolkien's Elves were immortal, and so they were, as such, natural
                    > > > guardians of history and wisdom. But Tolkien modeled these
                    > mythical
                    > > > beings after the Benedictine monks of Europe. The western monastic
                    > > > tradition, which began with the Rule of St. Benedict, spread
                    > > > throughout Europe during the Dark Ages.
                    > >
                    > > I have never heard this theory before, of the Elves being modeled on
                    > > medieval Xian monks. Can you point me towards a source? I shd have
                    > > thought the Tuatha de Danaan a closer parallel than the
                    > Benedictines.
                    > > --John R.
                    > > (sorry to be slow in responding, but I've been away in the Midwest
                    > > and am just starting to play catch-up on my email)
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                  • Jack
                    ... Correct. In the UK edition I have, there iis no map as well. ... Not so in the UK edition.
                    Message 9 of 10 , Oct 20, 2007
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                      >As we know from Doug Anderson's Annotated Hobbit this line has been
                      >changed numerous times over the years to reflect the edition--it has
                      >been glossed over for this one,--the map in no in the chapter but on
                      >the inside covers, which are beautifully rendered but not in the
                      >chapter as stated.

                      Correct. In the UK edition I have, there iis no map as well.

                      >
                      >2) In the Barrels out of Bond Chapter on facing page 172 is the "Bilbo
                      >comes to the Huts of the Raft elves" color illustration plate--my copy
                      >has two of the same page--now this may be a glitch in binding and may
                      >be unique to my copy but I am curious if others have seen this.

                      Not so in the UK edition.
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