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Re: [mythsoc] Harry Potter IV

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  • Lisa Deutsch Harrigan
    ... There has been a major argument about Dudley being weight challenged and the way that Rowling is handling it, in other words, someone cried foul at her
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 15, 2000
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      Stolzi@... wrote:

      > Which brings me to a side thought. Some critic really raked
      > poor Lewis over
      > the coals because he made casual mention in a Narnia story of
      > some girl's
      > "fat legs," thus dooming the, um, differently-weighted to scorn
      > and derision.
      > It may even have been Philip Pullman.
      >
      > Dudley is =constantly= held up (tough job though that may be)
      > to scorn and
      > derision over HIS weight. Haven't heard any howls about that
      > from any of the
      > reviewers...

      There has been a major argument about Dudley being "weight
      challenged" and the way that Rowling is handling it, in other
      words, someone cried foul at her for not being PC, and several
      others have written back with LoC about the original column. So
      yes, some people are commenting on it.

      It should be noted that one of the LoC commented that they
      recently went to a Book Show and not one children's book there
      had a white male lead! 80 percent had female leads and most of
      the rest were animals! PC is definitely alive and well.

      But I've seen several "Rowling is not PC" comments for several
      things she's done, including having a white male as the hero!
      Several have even complained about Hermione, being so bookish,
      which is dumb since she is Joanne in disguise. Seems the PCers
      don't always get it right.

      Mythically yours,

      Lisa
    • Sophie Masson
      Ah, the good old double standard, isn t it, wherein girls, even fictional girls, are demed to need more protecting from slings and stones than the boys! Sophie
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 15, 2000
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        Ah, the good old double standard, isn't it, wherein girls, even fictional
        girls, are demed to need more protecting from slings and stones than the
        boys!
        Sophie
        Author site:
        http://members.xoom.com/sophiecastel/default.htm

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Stolzi@... <Stolzi@...>
        To: mythsoc@egroups.com <mythsoc@egroups.com>
        Date: Sunday, 16 July 2000 5:10
        Subject: [mythsoc] Harry Potter IV


        >Just started it and was amazed when Dudley Dursley is introduced to two
        "D"s
        >he's never known much about before... Diet, and Discipline.
        >
        >Which brings me to a side thought. Some critic really raked poor Lewis
        over
        >the coals because he made casual mention in a Narnia story of some girl's
        >"fat legs," thus dooming the, um, differently-weighted to scorn and
        derision.
        > It may even have been Philip Pullman.
        >
        >Dudley is =constantly= held up (tough job though that may be) to scorn and
        >derision over HIS weight. Haven't heard any howls about that from any of
        the
        >reviewers...
        >
        >Mary S
        >
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        >Life's too short to send boring email. Let SuperSig come to the rescue.
        >http://click.egroups.com/1/6809/8/_/505012/_/963688450/
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        >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        >
      • Christine Howlett
        Hermione, bless her, doesn t seem to require much protection from slings and arrows. While she s human enough to have feelings - and young enough to have hurt
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 15, 2000
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          Hermione, bless her, doesn't seem to require much protection from slings and
          arrows. While she's human enough to have feelings - and young enough to
          have hurt feelings - she seems to know how to cope on her own quite well.

          Christine
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Sophie Masson <smasson@...>
          To: mythsoc@egroups.com <mythsoc@egroups.com>
          Date: Saturday, July 15, 2000 6:18 PM
          Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Harry Potter IV


          >Ah, the good old double standard, isn't it, wherein girls, even fictional
          >girls, are demed to need more protecting from slings and stones than the
          >boys!
          >Sophie
          >Author site:
          >http://members.xoom.com/sophiecastel/default.htm
          >
          >-----Original Message-----
          >From: Stolzi@... <Stolzi@...>
          >To: mythsoc@egroups.com <mythsoc@egroups.com>
          >Date: Sunday, 16 July 2000 5:10
          >Subject: [mythsoc] Harry Potter IV
          >
          >
          >>Just started it and was amazed when Dudley Dursley is introduced to two
          >"D"s
          >>he's never known much about before... Diet, and Discipline.
          >>
          >>Which brings me to a side thought. Some critic really raked poor Lewis
          >over
          >>the coals because he made casual mention in a Narnia story of some girl's
          >>"fat legs," thus dooming the, um, differently-weighted to scorn and
          >derision.
          >> It may even have been Philip Pullman.
          >>
          >>Dudley is =constantly= held up (tough job though that may be) to scorn and
          >>derision over HIS weight. Haven't heard any howls about that from any of
          >the
          >>reviewers...
          >>
          >>Mary S
          >>
          >>------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >>Life's too short to send boring email. Let SuperSig come to the rescue.
          >>http://click.egroups.com/1/6809/8/_/505012/_/963688450/
          >>------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >>
          >>The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
          >>
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >Get great brand name shoes with just the click of a mouse. Check out
          >the huge selection at Zappos.com, the Web's Most Popular Store!
          >http://click.egroups.com/1/6994/8/_/505012/_/963699481/
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          >
          >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
          >
          >
        • Stolzi@aol.com
          In a message dated 7/15/00 7:19:54 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Because it s a traditional children s fiction situation? ... Yeah - I thought of that too.
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 15, 2000
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            In a message dated 7/15/00 7:19:54 PM Central Daylight Time,
            WendellWag@... writes:

            > Why then does the family situation seem so like the beginning of the 20th
            > century (at the latest)? Harry gets adopted into the family of relatives
            > who
            > treat him like dirt.

            Because it's a traditional children's fiction situation?

            >If any real family had acted in the way that the
            > Dursleys did, they'd be in court for child abuse so fast their heads would
            > spin.

            Yeah - I thought of that too.

            Mary S
          • Diane Joy Baker
            ... From: To: Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2000 9:42 PM Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Harry Potter IV ... would ... I second that
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 16, 2000
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <Stolzi@...>
              To: <mythsoc@egroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2000 9:42 PM
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Harry Potter IV


              > In a message dated 7/15/00 7:19:54 PM Central Daylight Time,
              > WendellWag@... writes:

              >
              > >If any real family had acted in the way that the
              > > Dursleys did, they'd be in court for child abuse so fast their heads
              would
              > > spin.
              >
              > Yeah - I thought of that too.

              I second that emotion. ---djb.
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > To email plain text is conventional, to add graphics is divine.
              > We'll show you how at www.supersig.com.
              > http://click.egroups.com/1/6811/8/_/505012/_/963711753/
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
              >
              >
            • Stolzi@aol.com
              In a message dated 7/15/00 4:07:57 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Rarely, if ever, would be my cantankerous remark. ... of women in the Potter books go to an
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 16, 2000
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                In a message dated 7/15/00 4:07:57 PM Central Daylight Time,
                lisa@... writes:

                > Seems the PCers
                > don't always get it right.

                Rarely, if ever, would be my cantankerous remark.

                Here's a rant from an acquaintance on another list:

                >>I would suggest that the feminists who are indignant at the portrayal
                of "women" in the Potter books go to an actual school and observe
                carefully how the girls act and interact. They will see that Ms.
                Rowling nails it every time.

                >>Another reason they are so popular, I would contend, is that kids are
                so sick of the moralistic, hyper-realistic "problem books" that have
                been dominating adolescent literature. These books do carry out the
                dreary role-modeling these feminist critics demand, which is no
                different in its essence than the lesson-in-life moralism
                fundamentalists demand.

                >>I write as someone who has criticized these books, but they are a
                testimony to the vacuity of the educational/kiddy lit establishment.

                Interesting!

                Mary S
              • Stolzi@aol.com
                In a message dated 7/15/00 4:07:57 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Rarely, if ever, would be my cantankerous remark. ... of women in the Potter books go to an
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 16, 2000
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                  In a message dated 7/15/00 4:07:57 PM Central Daylight Time,
                  lisa@... writes:

                  > Seems the PCers
                  > don't always get it right.

                  Rarely, if ever, would be my cantankerous remark.

                  Here's a rant from an acquaintance on another list:

                  >>I would suggest that the feminists who are indignant at the portrayal
                  of "women" in the Potter books go to an actual school and observe
                  carefully how the girls act and interact. They will see that Ms.
                  Rowling nails it every time.

                  >>Another reason they are so popular, I would contend, is that kids are
                  so sick of the moralistic, hyper-realistic "problem books" that have
                  been dominating adolescent literature. These books do carry out the
                  dreary role-modeling these feminist critics demand, which is no
                  different in its essence than the lesson-in-life moralism
                  fundamentalists demand.

                  >>I write as someone who has criticized these books, but they are a
                  testimony to the vacuity of the educational/kiddy lit establishment.

                  Interesting!

                  Mary S
                • Joe Tye
                  i don t recall this one. Joe Tye ... From: To: Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 10:27 AM Subject: [mythsoc] Harry Potter IV
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 17, 2000
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                    i don't recall this one.

                    Joe Tye


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <Stolzi@...>
                    To: <mythsoc@egroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 10:27 AM
                    Subject: [mythsoc] Harry Potter IV


                    > I wrote the below on Sunday and never received it. Did others? I am
                    afraid
                    > I've got a problem such as an AOL friend experienced on another e-groups
                    > list, of not getting distribution of my posts.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > In a message dated 7/15/00 4:07:57 PM Central Daylight Time,
                    > lisa@h... writes:
                    >
                    > > Seems the PCers
                    > > don't always get it right.
                    >
                    > Rarely, if ever, would be my cantankerous remark.
                    >
                    > Here's a rant from an acquaintance on another list:
                    >
                    > >>I would suggest that the feminists who are indignant at the portrayal
                    > of "women" in the Potter books go to an actual school and observe
                    > carefully how the girls act and interact. They will see that Ms.
                    > Rowling nails it every time.
                    >
                    > >>Another reason they are so popular, I would contend, is that kids are
                    > so sick of the moralistic, hyper-realistic "problem books" that have
                    > been dominating adolescent literature. These books do carry out the
                    > dreary role-modeling these feminist critics demand, which is no
                    > different in its essence than the lesson-in-life moralism
                    > fundamentalists demand.
                    >
                    > >>I write as someone who has criticized these books, but they are a
                    > testimony to the vacuity of the educational/kiddy lit establishment.
                    >
                    > Interesting!
                    >
                    > Mary S
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > To email plain text is conventional, to add graphics is divine.
                    > We'll show you how at www.supersig.com.
                    > http://click.egroups.com/1/6808/8/_/505012/_/963847650/
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    >
                    > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                  • Ted Sherman
                    Yes, Mary, it came through (and I entirely concur!). Ted ... -- Dr. Theodore James Sherman, Editor Mythlore: A Journal of J. R. R. Tolkien, C. S. Lewis,
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 17, 2000
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                      Yes, Mary, it came through (and I entirely concur!).

                      Ted

                      Stolzi@... wrote:

                      > I wrote the below on Sunday and never received it. Did others? I am afraid
                      > I've got a problem such as an AOL friend experienced on another e-groups
                      > list, of not getting distribution of my posts.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > In a message dated 7/15/00 4:07:57 PM Central Daylight Time,
                      > lisa@h... writes:
                      >
                      > > Seems the PCers
                      > > don't always get it right.
                      >
                      > Rarely, if ever, would be my cantankerous remark.
                      >
                      > Here's a rant from an acquaintance on another list:
                      >
                      > >>I would suggest that the feminists who are indignant at the portrayal
                      > of "women" in the Potter books go to an actual school and observe
                      > carefully how the girls act and interact. They will see that Ms.
                      > Rowling nails it every time.
                      >
                      > >>Another reason they are so popular, I would contend, is that kids are
                      > so sick of the moralistic, hyper-realistic "problem books" that have
                      > been dominating adolescent literature. These books do carry out the
                      > dreary role-modeling these feminist critics demand, which is no
                      > different in its essence than the lesson-in-life moralism
                      > fundamentalists demand.
                      >
                      > >>I write as someone who has criticized these books, but they are a
                      > testimony to the vacuity of the educational/kiddy lit establishment.
                      >
                      > Interesting!
                      >
                      > Mary S
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > To email plain text is conventional, to add graphics is divine.
                      > We'll show you how at www.supersig.com.
                      > http://click.egroups.com/1/6808/8/_/505012/_/963847650/
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >
                      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org

                      --
                      Dr. Theodore James Sherman, Editor
                      Mythlore: A Journal of J. R. R. Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, Charles Williams and
                      Mythopoeic Literature
                      Box X041, Department of English
                      Middle Tennessee State University
                      Murfreesboro, TN 37132
                      615 898-5836; FAX 615 898-5098
                      tsherman@...
                      tedsherman@...
                    • Diane Joy Baker
                      ... From: To: Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 11:27 AM Subject: [mythsoc] Harry Potter IV ... afraid ... Got your message
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 17, 2000
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                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: <Stolzi@...>
                        To: <mythsoc@egroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 11:27 AM
                        Subject: [mythsoc] Harry Potter IV


                        > I wrote the below on Sunday and never received it. Did others? I am
                        afraid
                        > I've got a problem such as an AOL friend experienced on another e-groups
                        > list, of not getting distribution of my posts.

                        Got your message twice, and deleted one. ---djb.
                      • LSolarion@aol.com
                        In a message dated 07/15/2000 2:08:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, lisa@harrigan.org writes:
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 17, 2000
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                          In a message dated 07/15/2000 2:08:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
                          lisa@... writes:

                          << I've seen several "Rowling is not PC" comments for several
                          things she's done, including having a white male as the hero!
                          Several have even complained about Hermione, being so bookish,
                          which is dumb since she is Joanne in disguise. Seems the PCers
                          don't always get it right. >>

                          Not as often as they think, anyway. As far as I'm concerned, Rowling seems to
                          be offending all the right people: the pharisees of the right and of the
                          left. Boys need heroes too.
                          The PCers' problem is that they think we fallen humans can build a perfect
                          society when we can't even agree on what perfection is. Of course, such an
                          agreement would be too exclusive and intolerant, so they settle for saying
                          that everyone is right, but only for themselves. Onward and upward toward
                          chaos. Well, count me out.
                        • Trudy Shaw
                          I also received the message twice (which seems to happen occasionally, and not just on yours). -- Trudy Shaw ... From: To:
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 18, 2000
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                            I also received the message twice (which seems to happen occasionally, and
                            not just on yours). -- Trudy Shaw


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: <Stolzi@...>
                            To: <mythsoc@egroups.com>
                            Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 10:27 AM
                            Subject: [mythsoc] Harry Potter IV


                            > I wrote the below on Sunday and never received it. Did others? I am
                            afraid
                            > I've got a problem such as an AOL friend experienced on another e-groups
                            > list, of not getting distribution of my posts.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > In a message dated 7/15/00 4:07:57 PM Central Daylight Time,
                            > lisa@h... writes:
                            >
                            > > Seems the PCers
                            > > don't always get it right.
                            >
                            > Rarely, if ever, would be my cantankerous remark.
                            >
                            > Here's a rant from an acquaintance on another list:
                            >
                            > >>I would suggest that the feminists who are indignant at the portrayal
                            > of "women" in the Potter books go to an actual school and observe
                            > carefully how the girls act and interact. They will see that Ms.
                            > Rowling nails it every time.
                            >
                            > >>Another reason they are so popular, I would contend, is that kids are
                            > so sick of the moralistic, hyper-realistic "problem books" that have
                            > been dominating adolescent literature. These books do carry out the
                            > dreary role-modeling these feminist critics demand, which is no
                            > different in its essence than the lesson-in-life moralism
                            > fundamentalists demand.
                            >
                            > >>I write as someone who has criticized these books, but they are a
                            > testimony to the vacuity of the educational/kiddy lit establishment.
                            >
                            > Interesting!
                            >
                            > Mary S
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > To email plain text is conventional, to add graphics is divine.
                            > We'll show you how at www.supersig.com.
                            > http://click.egroups.com/1/6808/8/_/505012/_/963847650/
                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            >
                            > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                            >
                            >
                          • Margaret Dean
                            ... The main problem I had with that whole plotline was that it didn t end up going anywhere -- in this book, anyway. I hope Rowling will pick it up later and
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jul 18, 2000
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                              Stolzi@... wrote:
                              >
                              > Oddly enough, I found =I= had a problem in vol IV - with the house-elves.
                              > They're not that appealing, as a creation, and bigger than that is the
                              > problem that they are slaves who revel in their slavery.

                              The main problem I had with that whole plotline was that it
                              didn't end up going anywhere -- in this book, anyway. I hope
                              Rowling will pick it up later and that it wasn't just a far too
                              elaborate way to get Dobby and Winky into the story and give
                              Harry, Ron and Hermione an excuse to sneak into the Hogwarts
                              kitchens.

                              Apart from that I'm intrigued by the house-elf situation. Is
                              Hermione right, that the house-elves would be happier if they
                              were free? Is Ron right, that "that's just the way they are" and
                              Dobby is downright weird by the standards of his own people?
                              Could the answer be somewhere in between? Hermione is coming at
                              the problem from a Muggle background, whereas Ron has generations
                              of wizards behind him, so it's easy to see why each of them has a
                              very different "take" on the house-elves. With more development,
                              this subplot could really go places.


                              --Professor McGonagall
                              <margdean@...>
                            • Stolzi@aol.com
                              Oddly enough, I found =I= had a problem in vol IV - with the house-elves. They re not that appealing, as a creation, and bigger than that is the problem that
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jul 18, 2000
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                                Oddly enough, I found =I= had a problem in vol IV - with the house-elves.
                                They're not that appealing, as a creation, and bigger than that is the
                                problem that they are slaves who revel in their slavery.

                                This is really hard to put across, seems to me. I don't remember an author
                                doing it since Al Capp invented the Shmoo, a lovable beast who delighted to
                                sacrifice his flesh for humans' enjoyment (sometimes they ran around with
                                forks stuck in their delectable little behinds).

                                Mary S
                              • Juliet Blosser
                                ... I m sure my favorite treatment of this theme comes from _The Restaurant at the End of the Universe_ (the third Hitchhiker book). Zaphod Beeblebrox took
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jul 18, 2000
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                                  On Tue, Jul 18, 2000 at 06:41:24PM -0400, Stolzi@... wrote:
                                  > Oddly enough, I found =I= had a problem in vol IV - with the house-elves.
                                  > They're not that appealing, as a creation, and bigger than that is the
                                  > problem that they are slaves who revel in their slavery.
                                  >
                                  > This is really hard to put across, seems to me. I don't remember an author
                                  > doing it since Al Capp invented the Shmoo, a lovable beast who delighted to
                                  > sacrifice his flesh for humans' enjoyment (sometimes they ran around with
                                  > forks stuck in their delectable little behinds).
                                  >
                                  I'm sure my favorite treatment of this theme comes from _The Restaurant
                                  at the End of the Universe_ (the third Hitchhiker book). Zaphod
                                  Beeblebrox took the crew to the restaurant at the end of the universe,
                                  where a special bovine had been bred which "actually wanted to be eaten
                                  and was capable of saying so clearly and distinctly."

                                  "Or the rump is very good...I've been exercising it and eating plenty
                                  of grain, so there's a lot of good meat there."

                                  "May I urge you to consider my liver? It must be very rich and tender
                                  by now, I've been force-feeding myself for months."

                                  "Very good. I'll just nip off and shoot myself."

                                  Perhaps not quite the same idea, but an excellent satire of such a concept :)
                                • Margaret Dean
                                  ... *giggle!* I hadn t thought of it before now, but . . . --Margaret Dean
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jul 18, 2000
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                                    Berni Phillips wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >From: Margaret Dean <margdean@...>
                                    >
                                    > >Apart from that I'm intrigued by the house-elf situation. Is
                                    > >Hermione right, that the house-elves would be happier if they
                                    > >were free? Is Ron right, that "that's just the way they are" and
                                    > >Dobby is downright weird by the standards of his own people?
                                    >
                                    > I haven't read the book yet, but am I the only one who read this and
                                    > immediately thought of Herby in the animated "Rudolph the Red-Nosed
                                    > Reindeer"? ("I want to be a dentist!")

                                    *giggle!* I hadn't thought of it before now, but . . .


                                    --Margaret Dean
                                    <margdean@...>
                                  • Berni Phillips
                                    ... I haven t read the book yet, but am I the only one who read this and immediately thought of Herby in the animated Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer ? ( I
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jul 18, 2000
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                                      >From: Margaret Dean <margdean@...>

                                      >Apart from that I'm intrigued by the house-elf situation. Is
                                      >Hermione right, that the house-elves would be happier if they
                                      >were free? Is Ron right, that "that's just the way they are" and
                                      >Dobby is downright weird by the standards of his own people?

                                      I haven't read the book yet, but am I the only one who read this and
                                      immediately thought of Herby in the animated "Rudolph the Red-Nosed
                                      Reindeer"? ("I want to be a dentist!")

                                      Berni
                                    • Stolzi@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 7/18/00 6:17:02 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Perhaps someone asked Rowling, Where is all that delectable food in the dining hall at
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Jul 19, 2000
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                                        In a message dated 7/18/00 6:17:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
                                        margdean@... writes:

                                        > Apart from that I'm intrigued by the house-elf situation.

                                        Perhaps someone asked Rowling, "Where is all that delectable food in the
                                        dining hall at Hogwarts coming from? Who does the cleaning?" (but why
                                        couldn't it all be by magic?)

                                        Perhaps she looked at her own kitchen one depressing night and thought, "I
                                        wish =I= could magick up someone to help with all this."

                                        Fun to speculate.

                                        Mary S
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