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  • Lynn Maudlin
    http://tls.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25341-2649284,00.html A very enthusiastic article from the Times Literary Supplement-- yay!
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 13, 2007
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      http://tls.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25341-2649284,00.html

      A very enthusiastic article from the Times Literary Supplement-- yay!
    • Merlin DeTardo
      ...
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 14, 2007
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        ---"Lynn Maudlin" <lynnmaudlin@...> wrote:
        <<http://tls.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25341-2649284,00.html
        A very enthusiastic article from the Times Literary Supplement-- yay!
        >>

        Congratulations to Diana! Barnes certainly seems to have enjoyed the
        book, and learned from it.

        Unfortunately, he makes some odd mistakes -- maybe he knows _LotR_
        more from film than text? Frodo doesn't "sail towards the Grey
        Havens"; Sam doesn't "walk back to the Shire"; nor does he return to
        his wife "and children".

        Also, I don't have _Sauron Defeated_ at hand, but I don't remember
        that Sam is described as "grey-haired" in the epilogue (unlikely for
        a hobbit in his fifties). And while Sam certainly reads "stories of
        his adventures to his children", I think in the epilogue itself he
        mostly answers their questions. And I remember the epilogue ended
        not by the fire-side, but by the door, with Sam hearing (or
        remembering) the sound of the sea.

        Is Eddison generally counted as an Inkling?

        More notably, while it's hardly unusual to charge Lewis and the
        Inklings with "mistrust of modernity", does Lewis's poetic response
        to Eliot really demonstrate that quality? Rather he seems to be
        questioning the effectiveness of one of Eliot's metaphors.

        -Merlin DeTardo
      • David Bratman
        ... That s a charitable way to put it. ... Nor is Valinor a kind of death, though Frodo will surely die there, because he is mortal. That s a pretty
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 14, 2007
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          At 04:11 PM 9/14/2007 +0000, Merlin DeTardo wrote:

          >Unfortunately, he makes some odd mistakes

          That's a charitable way to put it.

          >Frodo doesn't "sail towards the Grey
          >Havens"; Sam doesn't "walk back to the Shire"; nor does he return to
          >his wife "and children".

          Nor is Valinor "a kind of death," though Frodo will surely die there,
          because he is mortal. That's a pretty insulting thing to call the Immortal
          Lands.

          Mistaking the Grey Havens as the place the ship sails _to_ instead of the
          place it sails _from_ is a very common error among unobservant Tolkienists.

          >Also, I don't have _Sauron Defeated_ at hand, but I don't remember ...

          You memory is not incorrect, no.

          >Is Eddison generally counted as an Inkling?

          No, nor is his name spelled "Edison" as it appears in the review. The
          description of ERE as one of the Inklings is particularly odd given that in
          the next paragraph he says "There were nineteen members in all," which
          suggests he took the Appendix as a roster, an impression the author of that
          appendix tried to avoid giving, and if it is taken as a roster, Eddison
          ain't in it.

          >More notably, while it's hardly unusual to charge Lewis and the
          >Inklings with "mistrust of modernity", does Lewis's poetic response
          >to Eliot really demonstrate that quality? Rather he seems to be
          >questioning the effectiveness of one of Eliot's metaphors.

          I thought that very odd. Barnes seems to think that Lewis has hung himself
          in his own words by having the nerve to query the word choice of Saint Tom.
        • John D Rateliff
          ... Yes, he does. But that shouldn t overshadow that it s a real milestone for Diana s book to be reviewed in a prestigious journal like the TLS. Many
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 14, 2007
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            On Sep 14, 2007, at 9:11 AM, Merlin DeTardo wrote:
            > Congratulations to Diana! Barnes certainly seems to have enjoyed
            > the book, and learned from it.
            >
            > Unfortunately, he makes some odd mistakes

            Yes, he does. But that shouldn't overshadow that it's a real
            milestone for Diana's book to be reviewed in a prestigious journal
            like the TLS. Many congratulations, Diana, and thanks to Lynn for the
            posting.


            > . . . I remember the epilogue ended not by the fire-side, but by
            > the door, with Sam hearing (or remembering) the sound of the sea.

            Personally, I find the alternate final line equally moving, in quite
            a different way, from "Well, I'm back":
            ". . . Sam shut the door. But even as he did so, he heard
            suddenly . . . the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of
            Middle-earth."
            But then I rather like the Second Epilogue, and suspect most of
            the criticism on record was directed at the First Epilogue, which is
            much weaker (although it is interesting to see in it Tolkien putting
            into practice some of his precepts from OFS).


            > Is Eddison generally counted as an Inkling?

            No, he was just an honored visitor. But more significant is Barnes'
            assertion that it was specifically criticism by the Inklings that led
            Tolkien to reject the Epilogue. There's no real evidence for this
            that I'm aware of; Diana herself is very careful to hedge it as one
            of several possibilities. I also don't agree with his description of
            Wain's account as "hostile" -- certainly Wain had his criticisms,
            mostly political, but he idolized Lewis and ended his account of the
            meetings with "The best of them were as good as anything I shall live
            to see".



            > More notably, while it's hardly unusual to charge Lewis and the
            > Inklings with "mistrust of modernity", does Lewis's poetic response
            > to Eliot really demonstrate that quality?

            Yes, especially when taken in context with his wholesale strictures
            of TSE described in Carpenter's THE INKLINGS and in other sources.
            Lewis's carping about Eliot even annoyed Christopher Tolkien, himself
            no champion of modernism, on at least one occasion: cf. Warnie's
            diary entry of 25th Sept. 1947 (BROTHERS & FRIENDS, page 209).

            And again, congratulations to Diana.

            --JDR
          • Lynn Maudlin
            Which brings us to the interesting question of fact checking and whether it s done well (or at all--). Fascinating movie is SHATTERED GLASS, fact-based story
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 14, 2007
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              Which brings us to the interesting question of "fact checking" and
              whether it's done well (or at all--). Fascinating movie is SHATTERED
              GLASS, fact-based story about Stephen Glass, a writer at The New
              Republic magazine (not sure that TNR has yet mastered the art of "fact
              checking" - I just heard about another smaller issue with bad data
              published because the fact checker was the author's girlfriend... {eye
              rolling} - but maybe every 10 years or so is par for the course).
              Anyway, good film, well worth renting on DVD.

              Polls and statistics are the ones that get me the most... *sigh*

              BUT this is a book review - I don't know how much fact checking
              actually goes into a book review? hmmmm.

              If I recall correctly, Eddison attended one Inklings meeting (yes,
              DavidB?) and died shortly thereafter (the two events were unrelated, I
              am sure).

              -- Lynn --

              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:
              >
              > On Sep 14, 2007, at 9:11 AM, Merlin DeTardo wrote:
              > > Congratulations to Diana! Barnes certainly seems to have enjoyed
              > > the book, and learned from it.
              > >
              > > Unfortunately, he makes some odd mistakes
              >
              > Yes, he does. But that shouldn't overshadow that it's a real
              > milestone for Diana's book to be reviewed in a prestigious journal
              > like the TLS. Many congratulations, Diana, and thanks to Lynn for the
              > posting.
              >
              >
              > > . . . I remember the epilogue ended not by the fire-side, but by
              > > the door, with Sam hearing (or remembering) the sound of the sea.
              >
              > Personally, I find the alternate final line equally moving, in quite
              > a different way, from "Well, I'm back":
              > ". . . Sam shut the door. But even as he did so, he heard
              > suddenly . . . the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of
              > Middle-earth."
              > But then I rather like the Second Epilogue, and suspect most of
              > the criticism on record was directed at the First Epilogue, which is
              > much weaker (although it is interesting to see in it Tolkien putting
              > into practice some of his precepts from OFS).
              >
              >
              > > Is Eddison generally counted as an Inkling?
              >
              > No, he was just an honored visitor. But more significant is Barnes'
              > assertion that it was specifically criticism by the Inklings that led
              > Tolkien to reject the Epilogue. There's no real evidence for this
              > that I'm aware of; Diana herself is very careful to hedge it as one
              > of several possibilities. I also don't agree with his description of
              > Wain's account as "hostile" -- certainly Wain had his criticisms,
              > mostly political, but he idolized Lewis and ended his account of the
              > meetings with "The best of them were as good as anything I shall live
              > to see".
              >
              >
              >
              > > More notably, while it's hardly unusual to charge Lewis and the
              > > Inklings with "mistrust of modernity", does Lewis's poetic response
              > > to Eliot really demonstrate that quality?
              >
              > Yes, especially when taken in context with his wholesale strictures
              > of TSE described in Carpenter's THE INKLINGS and in other sources.
              > Lewis's carping about Eliot even annoyed Christopher Tolkien, himself
              > no champion of modernism, on at least one occasion: cf. Warnie's
              > diary entry of 25th Sept. 1947 (BROTHERS & FRIENDS, page 209).
              >
              > And again, congratulations to Diana.
              >
              > --JDR
              >
            • David Bratman
              ... Eddison came to Magdalen twice, but whether either occasion was formally an Inklings meeting is open to doubt, largely because Inklings meetings were not
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 14, 2007
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                At 08:33 PM 9/14/2007 +0000, Lynn Maudlin wrote:

                >If I recall correctly, Eddison attended one Inklings meeting (yes,
                >DavidB?) and died shortly thereafter (the two events were unrelated, I
                >am sure).

                Eddison came to Magdalen twice, but whether either occasion was formally
                "an Inklings meeting" is open to doubt, largely because Inklings meetings
                were not a formal process.

                This isn't a matter of fact checking in the ordinary sense, but of reading
                the book that's open before one. Diana spells Eddison's name correctly,
                she says he met with the Inklings, but he isn't listed as a "member", and
                the appendix of 19 names doesn't call them the membership of the Inklings.
              • Merlin DeTardo
                ...
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 14, 2007
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                  ---John D Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:
                  << Personally, I find the alternate final line equally moving, in
                  quite a different way, from "Well, I'm back":
                  ". . . Sam shut the door. But even as he did so, he heard
                  suddenly . . . the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of
                  Middle-earth." >>

                  That is lovely. Though perhaps it follows too closely on this,
                  from "The Grey Havens":

                  "There still he stood far into the night, hearing only the sigh and
                  murmur of the waves on the shores of Middle-earth, and the sound of
                  them sank deep into his heart."


                  Though the comparison is thematically inappropriate, both lines bring
                  to my mind some parts of Matthew Arnold's "Dover Beach", for example:

                  "Listen! you hear the grating roar
                  Of pebbles which the waves draw back, and fling,
                  At their return, up the high strand,
                  Begin, and cease, and then again begin,
                  With tremulous cadence slow, and bring
                  The eternal note of sadness in."


                  -Merlin DeTardo
                • Lynn Maudlin
                  Yes, you re right - this isn t an outside fact-checker s job but rather the reviewe s. It s hard to complain about sloppy work when the review glows - makes me
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 15, 2007
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                    Yes, you're right - this isn't an outside fact-checker's job but
                    rather the reviewe's. It's hard to complain about sloppy work when the
                    review glows - makes me feel very ambivalent!!!

                    -- Lynn --

                    --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, David Bratman <dbratman@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > At 08:33 PM 9/14/2007 +0000, Lynn Maudlin wrote:
                    >
                    > >If I recall correctly, Eddison attended one Inklings meeting (yes,
                    > >DavidB?) and died shortly thereafter (the two events were unrelated, I
                    > >am sure).
                    >
                    > Eddison came to Magdalen twice, but whether either occasion was formally
                    > "an Inklings meeting" is open to doubt, largely because Inklings
                    meetings
                    > were not a formal process.
                    >
                    > This isn't a matter of fact checking in the ordinary sense, but of
                    reading
                    > the book that's open before one. Diana spells Eddison's name correctly,
                    > she says he met with the Inklings, but he isn't listed as a
                    "member", and
                    > the appendix of 19 names doesn't call them the membership of the
                    Inklings.
                    >
                  • Lynn Maudlin
                    Oh, that s beautiful-- I don t know the poem but it makes me think of the Chesil Beach in Dorset, England - here s an exhuastive but fascinating page:
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 15, 2007
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                      Oh, that's beautiful-- I don't know the poem but it makes me think of
                      the Chesil Beach in Dorset, England - here's an exhuastive but
                      fascinating page:

                      http://www.soton.ac.uk/~imw/chesil.htm

                      "At the Western end of the beach the make up is a fine shingle, as you
                      walk Eastwards towards Portland the shingle changes gradually to
                      larger and larger pebbles. This process is known as longshore drift.
                      It is said that fishermen coming ashore in fog can ascertain where
                      they are simply from the size of the pebbles."

                      -- Lynn --


                      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > ...both lines bring
                      > to my mind some parts of Matthew Arnold's "Dover Beach", for example:
                      >
                      > "Listen! you hear the grating roar
                      > Of pebbles which the waves draw back, and fling,
                      > At their return, up the high strand,
                      > Begin, and cease, and then again begin,
                      > With tremulous cadence slow, and bring
                      > The eternal note of sadness in."
                    • Cathy Akers-Jordan
                      ... Same here! I think it s a much stronger hint that Sam will eventually follow Frodo over the sea than I m back or the sound of them sank deep into his
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 16, 2007
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                        > > . . . I remember the epilogue ended not by the fire-side, but by
                        > > the door, with Sam hearing (or remembering) the sound of the sea.
                        >
                        > Personally, I find the alternate final line equally moving, in quite
                        > a different way, from "Well, I'm back":

                        Same here! I think it's a much stronger hint that Sam will eventually
                        follow Frodo over the sea than "I'm back" or "the sound of
                        them sank deep into his heart." Its juxtaposition against Sam's happy
                        home and family makes it all the more poignant for me.

                        Cathy
                      • Carl F. Hostetter
                        TLS, sure, that nice and all; but you KNOW a book has hit the big time when it hits eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160158431346 ;)
                        Message 11 of 16 , Sep 17, 2007
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                          TLS, sure, that nice and all; but you KNOW a book has hit the big
                          time when it hits eBay:

                          http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160158431346

                          ;)

                          Carl

                          P.S. I'm not the seller, or in any way connected.
                        • Lynn Maudlin
                          P.S. I m not the seller, or in any way connected. Of course not! you re not in San Dimas, California (hmmm, I wonder who it is...). -- Lynn --
                          Message 12 of 16 , Sep 18, 2007
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                            "P.S. I'm not the seller, or in any way connected."

                            Of course not! you're not in San Dimas, California (hmmm, I wonder who
                            it is...).

                            -- Lynn --

                            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > TLS, sure, that nice and all; but you KNOW a book has hit the big
                            > time when it hits eBay:
                            >
                            > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160158431346
                            >
                            > ;)
                            >
                            > Carl
                            >
                            > P.S. I'm not the seller, or in any way connected.
                            >
                          • Jason Fisher
                            ... San Dimas?! Maybe it s Ted Logan and Bill S. Preston, Esq., hahae. Okay, not mythopoeic, but I couldn t resist! :) Jason
                            Message 13 of 16 , Sep 19, 2007
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                              >> "P.S. I'm not the seller, or in any way connected."

                              > Of course not! you're not in San Dimas, California (hmmm,
                              > I wonder who it is...).

                              San Dimas?! Maybe it's Ted Logan and Bill S. Preston, Esq., hahae. Okay, not mythopoeic, but I couldn't resist! :)

                              Jason
                            • Lynn Maudlin
                              Ooooh, I completely forgot the Bill & Ted tie-in!!! -- Lynn -- ... Okay, not mythopoeic, but I couldn t resist! :)
                              Message 14 of 16 , Sep 19, 2007
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                                Ooooh, I completely forgot the Bill & Ted tie-in!!! <grin>

                                -- Lynn --

                                --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > >> "P.S. I'm not the seller, or in any way connected."
                                >
                                > > Of course not! you're not in San Dimas, California (hmmm,
                                > > I wonder who it is...).
                                >
                                > San Dimas?! Maybe it's Ted Logan and Bill S. Preston, Esq., hahae.
                                Okay, not mythopoeic, but I couldn't resist! :)
                                >
                                > Jason
                                >
                              • Anthony and Jessica
                                Definately hit the big time with that Carl! :-) So its not TLS but we have just opened our Online Review of Books over at our site www.herenistarion.org and
                                Message 15 of 16 , Sep 25, 2007
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                                  Definately hit the big time with that Carl! :-)
                                  So its not TLS but we have just opened our Online Review of Books over
                                  at our site www.herenistarion.org and The Company They Keep and
                                  Tolkien and Shakespeare are featured.
                                  Up next Parma Eldalamberon 16&17, The History of the Hobbit vols 1&2
                                  ;-)

                                  Let me know what ya'll think...

                                  Anthony



                                  --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > TLS, sure, that nice and all; but you KNOW a book has hit the big
                                  > time when it hits eBay:
                                  >
                                  > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160158431346
                                  >
                                  > ;)
                                  >
                                  > Carl
                                  >
                                  > P.S. I'm not the seller, or in any way connected.
                                  >
                                • Merlin DeTardo
                                  ...
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Sep 27, 2007
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                                    ---"Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@...> wrote:
                                    << From J.R.R. Tolkien, _LotR_, unused epilogue: "But even as he did
                                    so, he heard suddenly . . . the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the
                                    shores of Middle-earth."
                                    From J.R.R. Tolkien, _LotR_, "The Grey Havens": "There still he stood
                                    far into the night, hearing only the sigh and murmur of the waves on
                                    the shores of Middle-earth, and the sound of them sank deep into his
                                    heart."
                                    From Matthew Arnold, "Dover Beach": "Listen! you hear the grating
                                    roar / Of pebbles which the waves draw back, and fling / At their
                                    return, up the high strand" >>

                                    Belatedly: something similar yet not, from Tolkien's poem, "Progress
                                    in Bimble Town":

                                    "sometimes late, when motor-bikes
                                    are not passing with a screech,
                                    one hears faintly (if one likes)
                                    the sea still at it on the beach.
                                    at what? At churning orange-rind,
                                    piling up banana-skins,
                                    gnawing paper, trying to grind
                                    a broth of bottles, packets, tins"

                                    (_The Annotated Hobbit_, Revised Ed., p. 254)


                                    And that strikes another chord: "Gnaws iron, bites steel; / grinds
                                    hard stones to meal"?

                                    -Merlin DeTardo
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