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Silmarillion as beloved book of childhood

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  • Ernest Davis
    Interesting comment in an article in this week s New Republic: [Hesiod s] Theogony was even more disappointing. Here were the great tales of the clash of the
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 5, 2007
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      Interesting comment in an article in this week's New Republic:

      [Hesiod's] Theogony was even more disappointing. Here were the great
      tales of the clash of the Titans with the Olympian gods, the formation
      of Chaos, Earth, and Sky --- but all lacking the sense of the numinous
      that I had glimpsed in Milton and Blake, or for that matter in
      Tolkien's Silmarillion and Roger Lancelot Green's Old Greek Fairy
      Tales, the beloved books of my childhood.

      --- Emily Wilson, "Early Harvest", Review of a new translation of
      Hesiod by Glenn Most

      Emily Wilson, incidentally, teaches classics at U. Penn.

      My nephew has been telling us since he was 14 that he preferred the
      Silmarillion to LotR, but apparently it's a more common taste than I would have
      guessed.

      -- Ernie Davis
    • David Bratman
      Fascinating, especially considering where the comment occurred. I m old enough, though Prof. Wilson (who read the Silmarillion in childhood) presumably is
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 5, 2007
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        Fascinating, especially considering where the comment occurred. I'm old
        enough, though Prof. Wilson (who read the Silmarillion in childhood)
        presumably is not, to remember the uncomprehending and dismissive review of
        that book in that very magazine.

        I know others, some of them on this list, for whom the Silmarillion is
        their favorite Tolkien. Speak up, now!

        My own favorite? Smith of Wootton Major. It's the essence of what makes
        Tolkien different from run of the mill fantasists, the perfect distillation
        of the distinction between Elfland and Poughkeepsie (in the terms of Le
        Guin, another writer who really gets it).


        At 04:44 PM 9/5/2007 -0400, Ernest Davis wrote:

        >Interesting comment in an article in this week's New Republic:
        >
        >[Hesiod's] Theogony was even more disappointing. Here were the great
        >tales of the clash of the Titans with the Olympian gods, the formation
        >of Chaos, Earth, and Sky --- but all lacking the sense of the numinous
        >that I had glimpsed in Milton and Blake, or for that matter in
        >Tolkien's Silmarillion and Roger Lancelot Green's Old Greek Fairy
        >Tales, the beloved books of my childhood.
        >
        >--- Emily Wilson, "Early Harvest", Review of a new translation of
        >Hesiod by Glenn Most
        >
        >Emily Wilson, incidentally, teaches classics at U. Penn.
        >
        >My nephew has been telling us since he was 14 that he preferred the
        >Silmarillion to LotR, but apparently it's a more common taste than I would
        >have guessed.
      • Oberhelman, D
        ... their favorite Tolkien. Speak up, now!
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 6, 2007
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          >I know others, some of them on this list, for whom the Silmarillion is
          their favorite Tolkien. Speak up, now!<



          I first read the Silmarillion when I was 13 in 1978, right after a marathon reading of The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings in about two weeks. The powerful narrative of Lord of the Rings is what made me love Tolkien, but I was really hooked by the vistas I saw in the Silmarillion. I admit it took me ages to go through it, and I was sometimes lost in the sea of "F" names, but I had read many books on mythology by then (Homer, though no Hesiod at that point) and very drawn to the book because of its "epic" qualities. It probably did rank as my "favorite" Tolkien work then, and I still like reading it today though I approach it differently in the wake of all that Christopher has published since and all the criticism that has come out on the legendarium.

          I'm still a Lord of the Rings person in the end (that's the one I reread the most), but the Silmarillion is still the work that made the deepest impression on the younger me.

          David O.


          **************************************
          David D. Oberhelman
          Associate Professor
          Humanities-Social Sciences Division
          Oklahoma State University Library
          Stillwater, OK 74078
          Phone: (405) 744-9773
          Fax: (405) 744-7579
          Email: d.oberhelman@...


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Walkermonk@aol.com
          Well, I loved parts of it quite a lot -- the bravery of some of the characters (presumably named something starting with F, yes) is astounding and beautiful.
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 6, 2007
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            Well, I loved parts of it quite a lot -- the bravery of some of the
            characters (presumably named something starting with F, yes) is astounding and
            beautiful. But overall, I found several of the story lines so sad and dark that I
            could not in honesty say it was my favourite overall work.

            Mine might be "Leaf By Niggle." Maybe. Although now that I think about it,
            the horns of Rohan in the morning will always make tears come to my eyes and so
            I might have to stick with "Rings" as my favourite for that reason -- and
            Dernhelm of course. (Happy sigh...I love that part so much!)

            Grace

            In a message dated 9/6/2007 11:52:34 AM Central Daylight Time,
            dbratman@... writes:

            I know others, some of them on this list, for whom the Silmarillion is
            their favorite Tolkien. Speak up, now!





            ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
            http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Joan.Marie.Verba@sff.net
            ... From: David Bratman ... I have; I ve always said I thought the Silmarillion was fantastic. My opinion is that it was equal to LotR
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 6, 2007
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              --- Original Message ---
              From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>

              > I know others, some of them on this list, for whom the Silmarillion is
              > their favorite Tolkien. Speak up, now!

              I have; I've always said I thought the Silmarillion was fantastic. My opinion
              is that it was equal to LotR or The Hobbit, however. I would put those 3
              novels on the same level instead of preferring one over the other.

              Joan
            • Doug Kane
              I don t know if I could say that _The Silmarillion_ is my favorite Tolkien in terms of being the most enjoyable work; I think that would still have to be
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 6, 2007
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                I don't know if I could say that _The Silmarillion_ is my "favorite Tolkien" in terms of being the most enjoyable work; I think that would still have to be _The Lord of the Rings_. But I do think that _The Silmarillion_ has had more influence on me than any of Tolkien's work. And this is increased exponentially if we speak of 'the Silmarillion' - the broad body of different related works that made up the material on the Elder Days (including such works a the Laws and Customs of the Eldar and the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth). What moves me the most about Tolkien's work is his philosophical speculation, particularly on the subjects of mortality and the tension between fate and free will, and 'the Silmarillion' certainly explores those subjects with greater depth than any of Tolkien's other works.

                In my opinion, of course.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Joan.Marie.Verba@... <Joan.Marie.Verba@...>
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com <mythsoc@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Thursday, September 06, 2007 10:53 AM
                Subject: [mythsoc] Silmarillion as beloved book of childhood


                --- Original Message ---
                From: David Bratman <dbratman@...>

                > I know others, some of them on this list, for whom the Silmarillion is
                > their favorite Tolkien. Speak up, now!

                I have; I've always said I thought the Silmarillion was fantastic. My opinion
                is that it was equal to LotR or The Hobbit, however. I would put those 3
                novels on the same level instead of preferring one over the other.

                Joan






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Carl F. Hostetter
                ... I recognize that _The Lord of the Rings_ is Tolkien s masterpiece; but _The Silmarillion_ is absolutely my favorite of his books, for its astonishing scope
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 6, 2007
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                  On Sep 6, 2007, at 2:01 AM, David Bratman wrote:
                  > I know others, some of them on this list, for whom the Silmarillion is
                  > their favorite Tolkien. Speak up, now!
                  >

                  I recognize that _The Lord of the Rings_ is Tolkien's masterpiece;
                  but _The Silmarillion_ is absolutely my favorite of his books, for
                  its astonishing scope and profundity and piercing beauties.

                  Carl
                • Walter Padgett
                  ... Kant, I have been told, said that there are more degrees than categories. I spent a lot of time trying to discover and explain why _The Silmarillion_, for
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 8, 2007
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                    On 9/6/07, Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > On Sep 6, 2007, at 2:01 AM, David Bratman wrote:
                    > > I know others, some of them on this list, for whom the Silmarillion is
                    > > their favorite Tolkien. Speak up, now!
                    > >
                    >
                    > I recognize that _The Lord of the Rings_ is Tolkien's masterpiece;
                    > but _The Silmarillion_ is absolutely my favorite of his books, for
                    > its astonishing scope and profundity and piercing beauties.
                    >
                    > Carl
                    >

                    Kant, I have been told, said that there are more degrees than
                    categories. I spent a lot of time trying to discover and explain why
                    _The Silmarillion_, for me, has to be categorized as something other
                    than a book. Of course, it is my favorite. But that can't account
                    for what it does for me (I should say psychologically, or emotionally
                    (if not spiritually)). Part of the reason _The Silmarillion_ is such
                    a powerful account is that it encompases and exposes a singularly
                    concieved ontology, one in which the stories of _The Hobbit_ and _The
                    Lord of the Rings_ are played out. Knowing and loving those stories
                    (or *that* story*) is prerequisite, is seems to me, to an ultimately
                    meaningful reading of _The Silmarillion_ and a consequential
                    realtionship.

                    Why did I read and re-read all those books? To what extent have they
                    shaped or structured my understanding of the world? And how could the
                    operation of that effect be explained? That's what I've tried to
                    theorize, however inadequately.

                    I loved _The Hobbit_ in childhood, which in my case streached into
                    adolescence. I re-read it much the same way I re-watched Star Wars,
                    for the drama and excitement of such things as Dragons and Darth
                    Vaders, light sabers and glowing swords-- magic rings that bestow
                    invisibility on their wearer. Cool!

                    At some point, early in my teens, I read _The Lord of the Rings_, and
                    of course it was even better than _The Hobbit_, which at that point
                    was clearly Tolkien's book for children. I think I re-read LotR many
                    times because it was like Star Trek, in the sense that I knew that I
                    would get something different out of it, something wonderful and new,
                    on each new reading. It proves to be so, as I grow and am able to
                    bring more of myself to the reading. It's a great story that teaches
                    about sacrafice and heroism, about wisdom and power and so many other
                    things. For me, it was a kind of an intellectual birth. It was an
                    effort to read these books. My vocabulary began to become populated
                    with words voiced only by intellectuals. I emerged from these
                    readings a more thoughtful and circumspect individual, considering
                    both the seen and the unseen aspects, influences and consequences in
                    the world around me. I could not see all. I can not see all, of
                    course. But I began to become more aware of things I thougt of as
                    metaphysical laws, for example, and the operation of moral force. I
                    mean, the fact that it was pity, in the end, that saved Frodo
                    enlightened me on a larger scale than I had ever seriously considered
                    how a moral value can work in the world, even if it's not my "real"
                    world, but only Tolkien's fictionally distilled version.

                    I'm a simple man, you know-- not a gifted or natural intellectual.
                    But coming to it the way I did, I think _The Silmarillion_ is even
                    more of an adult book than _The Lord of the Rings_. The notion of it
                    being a "childhood favorite" is really kind of silly. It's like
                    saying the Bible is a childhood favorite. One could say, "Sure, the
                    Bible was one of my childhood favorites," but my question would be,
                    "Why?" Is it the sense of the numinous, or the idea of a man being
                    swallowed by a whale, or Daniel in the Lion's den?

                    I think you only really get the appropriate preparation for a truly
                    meaningful reading of _The Silmarillion_ through a thurough and
                    careful consideration of the earlier works. The theological and
                    philosophical sensibilties it renders seem calibrated to resolve and
                    enhance the conflicts and contradictions often experienced by the
                    growing intellectual.

                    What do you think about that?

                    Walter.
                  • Anthony and Jessica
                    Greetings all, Thank you David et al for this thread, I modified the subject of this post to Smith rather than Silmarillion as it originally had been, call me
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 22, 2007
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                      Greetings all,
                      Thank you David et al for this thread, I modified the subject of this
                      post to Smith rather than Silmarillion as it originally had been, call
                      me a lil behind but I am not just getting to Flieger's Smith and the
                      incredible essay that Tolkien wrote in regards to Smith. Some fleeting
                      thoughts regarding it, has there ever been a study done since its
                      release or reviews of this piece? At first when I ready somewhere that
                      it was a writer saying goodbye to his art, I related this to his 1951
                      letter to Milton Waldman (though not dated according to Carpenter)
                      that "[Tolkien's] crest has long since fallen." He felt this as early
                      as 1951 and is writing a goodbye to his art in his last story of
                      Smith. Yes? No? Maybe so?
                      I also love the examination of our view on enchantment as part of
                      human development, this has so much to say and I will have more
                      concise thoughts on it after a second read, but I find this all
                      fascinating and inspiring, how can we as writers broaden the appeal
                      and relation this has to human growth, continue with our own art? SO
                      many people miss the point of Art and thank you David for clarifying
                      so well that as we know Tolkien is different from run of the mill
                      fantasists, he gives us access to his world and allows us to run with
                      the fellowship, Lewis brings his world through portals to us, and
                      Williams contemporary supernatural tales are here and now in modernity--
                      I may have run too long in thought but will share more clearly for
                      this essay was just so fulfilling to read and write about in my notes,
                      which I will share in my review of it...

                      Anthony


                      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, David Bratman <dbratman@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Fascinating, especially considering where the comment occurred. I'm old
                      > enough, though Prof. Wilson (who read the Silmarillion in childhood)
                      > presumably is not, to remember the uncomprehending and dismissive
                      review of
                      > that book in that very magazine.
                      >
                      > I know others, some of them on this list, for whom the Silmarillion is
                      > their favorite Tolkien. Speak up, now!
                      >
                      > My own favorite? Smith of Wootton Major. It's the essence of what
                      makes
                      > Tolkien different from run of the mill fantasists, the perfect
                      distillation
                      > of the distinction between Elfland and Poughkeepsie (in the terms of Le
                      > Guin, another writer who really gets it).
                      >
                      >
                      > At 04:44 PM 9/5/2007 -0400, Ernest Davis wrote:
                      >
                      > >Interesting comment in an article in this week's New Republic:
                      > >
                      > >[Hesiod's] Theogony was even more disappointing. Here were the great
                      > >tales of the clash of the Titans with the Olympian gods, the formation
                      > >of Chaos, Earth, and Sky --- but all lacking the sense of the numinous
                      > >that I had glimpsed in Milton and Blake, or for that matter in
                      > >Tolkien's Silmarillion and Roger Lancelot Green's Old Greek Fairy
                      > >Tales, the beloved books of my childhood.
                      > >
                      > >--- Emily Wilson, "Early Harvest", Review of a new translation of
                      > >Hesiod by Glenn Most
                      > >
                      > >Emily Wilson, incidentally, teaches classics at U. Penn.
                      > >
                      > >My nephew has been telling us since he was 14 that he preferred the
                      > >Silmarillion to LotR, but apparently it's a more common taste than
                      I would
                      > >have guessed.
                      >
                    • Jason Fisher
                      ... Anthony, I couldn t agree more on the new edition. I m not sure exactly what sort of study you might be looking for, but I published a piece you might be
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 22, 2007
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                        > Thank you David et al for this thread, I modified the subject
                        > of this post to Smith [...] had been, call me a lil behind but
                        > I am now just getting to Flieger's Smith and the incredible
                        > essay that Tolkien wrote in regards to Smith. Some fleeting
                        > thoughts regarding it, has there ever been a study done
                        > since its release or reviews of this piece?

                        Anthony,

                        I couldn't agree more on the new edition. I'm not sure exactly what sort of study you might be looking for, but I published a piece you might be interested in tracking down. You'll already know some of what I discuss, having now read Flieger's edition; but I also undertake some (perfunctory) comparison of Tolkien's fiction for children with MacDonald's, and I even dare to venture some character analysis of Tolkien, vis-�-vis the souring of his attitude toward MacDonald. I'd be curious for any feedback if you end up reading it. It appears very few people subscribe to the journal of the George MacDonald Society � forgive me stifling a snicker at that. ;)

                        The piece is:
                        Fisher, Jason. �Reluctantly Inspired: George MacDonald and the Genesis of J.R.R. Tolkien�s Smith of Wootton Major.� North Wind: A Journal of George MacDonald Studies 25 (2006): 113-20.

                        Best,
                        Jason

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                      • David Bratman
                        ... I ll just bet you do. I m looking forward to seeing the article. Do you venture ideas of exactly what it is in MacDonald that earned Tolkien s distaste?
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 22, 2007
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                          Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...> wrote:

                          >I also undertake some (perfunctory) comparison of
                          >Tolkien's fiction for children with MacDonald's, and
                          >I even dare to venture some character analysis of
                          >Tolkien, vis-à-vis the souring of his attitude toward MacDonald.

                          I'll just bet you do. I'm looking forward to seeing the article. Do you venture ideas of exactly what it is in MacDonald that earned Tolkien's distaste?
                        • Jason Fisher
                          ... I suppose it depends on just what you mean by exactly , hahae. But yes, I take a stab at it. As much as an eight-page comparison permitted — and as much
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 22, 2007
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                            > --- David Bratman wrote ---
                            > I'm looking forward to seeing the article. Do you venture
                            > ideas of exactly what it is in MacDonald that earned
                            > Tolkien's distaste?

                            I suppose it depends on just what you mean by "exactly", hahae. But yes, I take a stab at it. As much as an eight-page comparison permitted — and as much as the evidence available to me supported. It's a jumping-off point for further, more involved research I would like to complete on the subject. Maybe it will spark some wider interest in comparative studies of the two as well. I hope so.

                            And I will certainly welcome any thoughts — complimentary or critical — when you get a chance to read it, David.

                            Jason
                          • William Cloud Hicklin
                            Although my teeneaged self pre-ordered the Silmarillion and even marked on the calendar the day I could triumphantly collect it at Waldenbooks, and I loved it
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 23, 2007
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                              Although my teeneaged self pre-ordered the Silmarillion
                              and even marked on the calendar the day I could
                              triumphantly collect it at Waldenbooks, and I loved it
                              from the start (unlike, I expect, many< I didn't then
                              fully apprecioate it. It took perhaps collegiate study
                              in both philosophy and Old English to enable deeper
                              levels of understanding.

                              I think for a considerable time I valued the Sil as too
                              many still do: as mere backstory to The LR, the
                              Appendices extended, an infodump, a mine of trivia.
                              Substantial appreciation of its grandeur as a whole, of
                              the elegance of its convoluted web of cause and long-
                              delayed effect, of its powerful meditations on the nature
                              of Evil, really began to dawn when I read it on a long,
                              long deployment at sea in the Navy.

                              Nowadays I don't believe the two can be ranked relative
                              to one another: they are simply too different. I suppose
                              that if one views The Lord of the Rings as Tolkien's 9th
                              Symphony, glorious, uplifting, at times ferocious,
                              inspiring, spiritual, but nonetheless 'popular'; then the
                              Sil is his Late Quartets: spare, un-'popular',
                              discursive, numinous in a manner harder to pin down,
                              uncompromisingly driven by its own unique internal
                              logic...and unfinished.
                            • Walter Padgett
                              Wow. That s really heavy. That s the best thing I ve read all day. Thanks for rendering so eloquently your profound appreciation. I especially like your
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 23, 2007
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                                Wow. That's really heavy. That's the best thing I've read all day.

                                Thanks for rendering so eloquently your profound appreciation.

                                I especially like your observation of "the elegance of its convoluted
                                web of cause and long-delayed effect."

                                I feel that _The Silmarillion_ is like a fine wine, or maybe a fine
                                esoteric blend of tobacco, or chese or something like that. First
                                you've got to develop a taste for that, and then as your sensibilities
                                become more refined your appreciation of it becomes more substantial.

                                There seems something quite romantic about your experience with _The
                                Silmarillion_ on that long deployment at sea.

                                Wonderful.

                                On 10/23/07, William Cloud Hicklin <solicitr@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Although my teeneaged self pre-ordered the Silmarillion
                                > and even marked on the calendar the day I could
                                > triumphantly collect it at Waldenbooks, and I loved it
                                > from the start (unlike, I expect, many< I didn't then
                                > fully apprecioate it. It took perhaps collegiate study
                                > in both philosophy and Old English to enable deeper
                                > levels of understanding.
                                >
                                > I think for a considerable time I valued the Sil as too
                                > many still do: as mere backstory to The LR, the
                                > Appendices extended, an infodump, a mine of trivia.
                                > Substantial appreciation of its grandeur as a whole, of
                                > the elegance of its convoluted web of cause and long-
                                > delayed effect, of its powerful meditations on the nature
                                > of Evil, really began to dawn when I read it on a long,
                                > long deployment at sea in the Navy.
                                >
                                > Nowadays I don't believe the two can be ranked relative
                                > to one another: they are simply too different. I suppose
                                > that if one views The Lord of the Rings as Tolkien's 9th
                                > Symphony, glorious, uplifting, at times ferocious,
                                > inspiring, spiritual, but nonetheless 'popular'; then the
                                > Sil is his Late Quartets: spare, un-'popular',
                                > discursive, numinous in a manner harder to pin down,
                                > uncompromisingly driven by its own unique internal
                                > logic...and unfinished.
                                >
                                >
                              • William Cloud Hicklin
                                ... your experience with _The ... Well, there s an added resonance to all the stuff about Ulmo and water when there s nothing to look at but ocean, day after
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 24, 2007
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                                  --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Walter
                                  Padgett" <wpadgett@...> wrote:

                                  > There seems something quite romantic about
                                  your experience with _The
                                  > Silmarillion_ on that long deployment at sea.
                                  >


                                  Well, there's an added resonance to all the stuff about
                                  Ulmo and water when there's nothing to look at but ocean,
                                  day after day after day....... :)
                                • Walter Padgett
                                  I thought it was MacDonald s grand-fatherly uncular stance that earned Tolkien s distaste, and that Tolkien saw some of this in his own writing in _The
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Oct 25, 2007
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                                    I thought it was MacDonald's grand-fatherly "uncular" stance that earned
                                    Tolkien's distaste, and that Tolkien saw some of this in his own writing in
                                    _The Hobbit_, detesting it all the more. But where I read that, I can't
                                    remember.

                                    On 10/22/07, Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > --- David Bratman wrote ---
                                    > > I'm looking forward to seeing the article. Do you venture
                                    > > ideas of exactly what it is in MacDonald that earned
                                    > > Tolkien's distaste?
                                    >
                                    > I suppose it depends on just what you mean by "exactly", hahae. But yes, I
                                    > take a stab at it. As much as an eight-page comparison permitted � and as
                                    > much as the evidence available to me supported. It's a jumping-off point for
                                    > further, more involved research I would like to complete on the subject.
                                    > Maybe it will spark some wider interest in comparative studies of the two as
                                    > well. I hope so.
                                    >
                                    > And I will certainly welcome any thoughts � complimentary or critical �
                                    > when you get a chance to read it, David.
                                    >
                                    > Jason
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Walter Padgett
                                    Oops! the word is avuncular (`_ ;) ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Oct 25, 2007
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                                      Oops! the word is "avuncular" (`_';)






                                      On 10/25/07, Walter Padgett <wpadgett@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I thought it was MacDonald's grand-fatherly "uncular" stance that earned
                                      > Tolkien's distaste, and that Tolkien saw some of this in his own writing in
                                      > _The Hobbit_, detesting it all the more. But where I read that, I can't
                                      > remember.
                                      >
                                      > On 10/22/07, Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > > --- David Bratman wrote ---
                                      > > > I'm looking forward to seeing the article. Do you venture
                                      > > > ideas of exactly what it is in MacDonald that earned
                                      > > > Tolkien's distaste?
                                      > >
                                      > > I suppose it depends on just what you mean by "exactly", hahae. But yes,
                                      > > I take a stab at it. As much as an eight-page comparison permitted � and as
                                      > > much as the evidence available to me supported. It's a jumping-off point for
                                      > > further, more involved research I would like to complete on the subject.
                                      > > Maybe it will spark some wider interest in comparative studies of the two as
                                      > > well. I hope so.
                                      > >
                                      > > And I will certainly welcome any thoughts � complimentary or critical �
                                      > > when you get a chance to read it, David.
                                      > >
                                      > > Jason
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Vincent Ferré
                                      and do not forget Gandalf, in The Lord..., according to his depiction by Tolkien : Though he may seem testy at times, has a sense of humour, and adopts a
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Oct 25, 2007
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                                        and do not forget Gandalf, in The Lord..., according to his depiction by
                                        Tolkien :

                                        "Though he may seem testy at times, has a sense of humour, and adopts a
                                        somewhat avuncular attitude to hobbits, he is a person of high and noble
                                        authority, and great dignity. The description on I p. 239 should never be
                                        forgotten"
                                        (Letters #210)

                                        Vincent

                                        >
                                        I thought it was MacDonald's grand-fatherly "uncular" stance that earned
                                        Tolkien's distaste, and that Tolkien saw some of this in his own writing in
                                        _The Hobbit_, detesting it all the more. But where I read that, I can't
                                        remember.
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