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Re: Medieval studies -- "Quenya" & "Sindarin" in LotR.

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  • Merlin DeTardo
    ... or Quenya actually appear anywhere in the narrative proper (unsurprisingly in the former case, since at the time it was still Noldorin. ) I never
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 10, 2007
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      >>---"William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...> wrote:
      >>Come to think of it, I don't believe the names "Sindarin"
      or "Quenya" actually appear anywhere in the narrative proper
      (unsurprisingly in the former case, since at the time it was
      still "Noldorin.")


      I never noticed that (or didn't not notice those missing words,
      rather)! Your comment sent me on a search of _LotR_, using Scull
      and Hammond's (wonderful) index to the 2005 one-volume, paperback
      edition. No doubt I'm repeating what others have done before, but
      for fun or further comment, here are the appearances of "Quenya"
      or "Sindarin", by those or other names, in order of appearance;
      references are to Book, Chapter, page(s):

      ---Quenya---
      High-elven speech (I, iii, 81)
      Ancient Tongue (I, iii, 81)
      Ancient Speech (I, iii, 85)
      ancient tongue of the Elves beyond the Sea (II, viii, 377)
      high tongue of old (V, viii, 863)
      Valinorean (V, viii, 864)
      High-elven (App. A, I, ii, 1038; App. A, I, iii, 1039; App. F, I,
      1127; App. F, II, 1137)
      Quenya (App. D, 1107, 1110, 1111; App. E, I, 1113, 1114, 1115, 1116;
      App. E, II, 1118, 1120, 1121, 1122, 1123, 1126; App. F, I, 1127,
      1128, 1131)
      High-elven Quenya (App. E, 1113; App. F, I, 1128)
      Q. (App. E, 1113, 1114, 1115)
      High-elven tongue (App. F, I, 1131)

      ---Sindarin---
      Elvish (II, i, 233; II, iv, 307)
      Elvish tongue (II, iii, 283; App. A, III, 1074)
      elven-tongue of the West of Middle-earth in the Elder Days (II, iv,
      306)
      our woodland-tongue (II, vi, 339) [1]
      elven-tongue (II, vi, 342, 343; IV, iv, 659; App. F, I, 1129) [1]
      Elvish speech (III, viii, 555)
      noble tongue (V, viii, 864) [2]
      Sindarin (App. D, 1107, 1110, 1111; App. E, 1114, 1115, 1116, 1117;
      App. E, II, 1120, 1121, 1122, 1123, 1126; App. F, I, 1127, 1128,
      1131)
      S. (App. E, I, 1113, 1114, 1115)
      Grey-elven (App. E, II, 1123; App. F, I, 1127, 1128, 1130, 1132)

      Apologies for any omissions or errors. Also for the missing
      diacritical marks in these notes:

      [1] S&H apparently refer to the terms "our woodland-tongue"
      and "elven-tongue" in the chapter "Lothlorien" when they index the
      same pages under both "Sindarin" and "Silvan Elves, language of",
      presumably per the first note to Appendix F (p. 1127), which says
      that Frodo at first misunderstood the accented Sindarin speech of
      the Lorien elves to be a Silvan tongue. (Though perhaps that note
      also should be indexed under "Silvan Elves, language of"?)

      [2] S&H give "noble tongue" as a name for Quenya. The only
      appearance I found for "noble tongue" is in "The Houses of Healing",
      where the herb-master uses it to describe the name "athelas",
      contrasting it to the name "asea aranion" in the "Valinorean"
      language, which is Quenya. I have listed "noble tongue" under
      Sindarin on the assumption that "athelas" is therefore a Sindarin
      word...

      ...and after searching for "athelas" on the lambengolmor list, and
      reading this post and its successors:

      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor/message/850

      I am a bit lost. So "athelas" is Sindarin, but with an unresolved
      etymology suggesting a strong element of Quenya (or Old English?) --
      is that right?
    • Cathy Akers-Jordan
      RTFL! Thank you, John! You are right: the Elrond bit is particularly funny. Cathy
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 11, 2007
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        RTFL! Thank you, John! You are right: the Elrond bit is particularly
        funny.

        Cathy

        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:
        >
        > Here's something very silly I happened to come across last week:
        > Peter Jackson's 'The Lord of the RIngs' as experienced by a bunch of
        > numskulls trying to play thorough the story as if it were a typical
        > D&D adventure.
        >
        > http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612
        >
        >
        > The story is still ongoing, after about a hundred and twenty
        > installments; they're currently messing around in the middle of the
        > Battle of the Pelennor Fields. The best episode of those I've seen so
        > far is the one covering Elrond's sudden appearance in Rohan, here
        > presented as a desperate attempt by the DM to fit a plot-hole caused
        > by narrator inattention:
        >
        > http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1148
        >
        > So, if you like D&D jokes, enjoy. If not, or if you don't like to
        > see the Jackson films mocked, better to give this a pass.
        >
        > --John R.
        >
      • William Cloud Hicklin
        ... with an unresolved ... (or Old English?) -- ... It s definitely Sindarin. I would suggest that the etymology isn t unresolved, either, although the note
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 11, 2007
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          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin
          DeTardo" <emptyD@...> wrote:

          >
          > I am a bit lost. So "athelas" is Sindarin, but
          with an unresolved
          > etymology suggesting a strong element of Quenya
          (or Old English?) --
          > is that right?


          It's definitely Sindarin. I would suggest that
          the etymology isn't unresolved, either, although
          the note in question hasn't been published (except
          via Internet: my fault, but the wars were still in
          the future at the time). The plant apparently was
          not native to Middle-earth, but brought by the
          Noldor; they called it in Quenya athea > asea (see
          The Shibboleth of Feanor). In exile, the Sindarin
          name was coined: regular cognate athe- compounded
          with -las. My speculation is that Asea Aranion
          was a specifically Numenorean term, the King being
          associated with healing in that culture; the
          translation would be something like 'kingsbalm.'

          The link to Old English aethele was entirely my
          guess- but it wouldn't be the only time OE found
          its way into the Elvish tongues: see CT's note on
          Orgel in Children of Hurin, or for that matter S.
          orch (from OE orc: Tolkien expressly said this
          word was 'Rohirric,' and it plainly comes from OE
          orc-neas and not L. orcus.).
        • William Cloud Hicklin
          OMG, Dr John, that is *screamingly* funny! And I ve been that DM, too.
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 11, 2007
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            OMG, Dr John, that is *screamingly* funny! And I've
            been that DM, too.
          • Merlin DeTardo
            ... unresolved, either, although the note in question... Thanks very much for that explanation. ... tongues: see CT s note on Orgel in Children of Hurin... I
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 15, 2007
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              >>"William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...> wrote:

              >>>---"Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@> wrote:
              >>>So "athelas" is Sindarin, but with an unresolved etymology ...?

              >> It's definitely Sindarin. I would suggest that the etymology isn't
              unresolved, either, although the note in question...

              Thanks very much for that explanation.


              >>...it wouldn't be the only time OE found its way into the Elvish
              tongues: see CT's note on Orgel in Children of Hurin...

              I can't find Orgel in the list of names at the back of _The Children
              of Hurin_ -- which character is that?

              Just kidding. Do you think Christopher Tolkien is right that it
              was "too late" to change "Saeros" to "Orgol"?
            • William Cloud Hicklin
              ... right that it ... Well, look at it from the perspective of CRT s purpose in publishing CoH. He very openly intended it to serve as a bridge to The
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 15, 2007
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                --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin
                DeTardo" <emptyD@...> wrote:

                >
                > Just kidding. Do you think Christopher Tolkien is
                right that it
                > was "too late" to change "Saeros" to "Orgol"?
                >

                Well, look at it from the perspective of CRT's
                purpose in publishing CoH. He very openly intended
                it to serve as a bridge to The Silmarillion for
                readers of The Lord of the Rings. Not direct to
                HoME! Thus in this one case consistency overrode
                what was generally his 'extreme scrupulosity' in not
                altering the Narn papers at all beyond, in effect,
                copy-editing. (He was fortunate in the fact that the
                Narn papers, to all appearances, predate the 1958-60
                writings which underly so many 'canonicity' debates).
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