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Re: very silly stuff

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  • Lynn Maudlin
    Oh, John, thank you so much - this is great (I must send it to my son, who will also love it); just really good facial expressions and word bubbles! Um,
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 10, 2007
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      Oh, John, thank you so much - this is great (I must send it to my son,
      who will also love it); just really good facial expressions and word
      bubbles! <grin>

      Um, are we living in a bizarre world where Jackson LotR fans the
      equivalent of Muslims reacting to "Danish" cartoons? The LotR novel
      gets lampooned ("Bored of the Rings") and that's minimally tolerable
      if not okay and sometimes actually embraced in a kind of dualism but
      to mock the movie causes great frothing? Surely not--

      -- Lynn --

      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:
      >
      > Here's something very silly I happened to come across last week:
      > Peter Jackson's 'The Lord of the RIngs' as experienced by a bunch of
      > numskulls trying to play thorough the story as if it were a typical
      > D&D adventure.
      >
      > http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612
      >
      >
      > The story is still ongoing, after about a hundred and twenty
      > installments; they're currently messing around in the middle of the
      > Battle of the Pelennor Fields. The best episode of those I've seen so
      > far is the one covering Elrond's sudden appearance in Rohan, here
      > presented as a desperate attempt by the DM to fit a plot-hole caused
      > by narrator inattention:
      >
      > http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1148
      >
      > So, if you like D&D jokes, enjoy. If not, or if you don't like to
      > see the Jackson films mocked, better to give this a pass.
      >
      > --John R.
      >
    • Lynn Maudlin
      Remember: That which does not kill you was simply not permitted to do so for the purposes of the plot. bwahahahahahahahaha!
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 10, 2007
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        "Remember: That which does not kill you was simply not permitted to do
        so for the purposes of the plot."

        bwahahahahahahahaha!
      • Merlin DeTardo
        ... or Quenya actually appear anywhere in the narrative proper (unsurprisingly in the former case, since at the time it was still Noldorin. ) I never
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 10, 2007
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          >>---"William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...> wrote:
          >>Come to think of it, I don't believe the names "Sindarin"
          or "Quenya" actually appear anywhere in the narrative proper
          (unsurprisingly in the former case, since at the time it was
          still "Noldorin.")


          I never noticed that (or didn't not notice those missing words,
          rather)! Your comment sent me on a search of _LotR_, using Scull
          and Hammond's (wonderful) index to the 2005 one-volume, paperback
          edition. No doubt I'm repeating what others have done before, but
          for fun or further comment, here are the appearances of "Quenya"
          or "Sindarin", by those or other names, in order of appearance;
          references are to Book, Chapter, page(s):

          ---Quenya---
          High-elven speech (I, iii, 81)
          Ancient Tongue (I, iii, 81)
          Ancient Speech (I, iii, 85)
          ancient tongue of the Elves beyond the Sea (II, viii, 377)
          high tongue of old (V, viii, 863)
          Valinorean (V, viii, 864)
          High-elven (App. A, I, ii, 1038; App. A, I, iii, 1039; App. F, I,
          1127; App. F, II, 1137)
          Quenya (App. D, 1107, 1110, 1111; App. E, I, 1113, 1114, 1115, 1116;
          App. E, II, 1118, 1120, 1121, 1122, 1123, 1126; App. F, I, 1127,
          1128, 1131)
          High-elven Quenya (App. E, 1113; App. F, I, 1128)
          Q. (App. E, 1113, 1114, 1115)
          High-elven tongue (App. F, I, 1131)

          ---Sindarin---
          Elvish (II, i, 233; II, iv, 307)
          Elvish tongue (II, iii, 283; App. A, III, 1074)
          elven-tongue of the West of Middle-earth in the Elder Days (II, iv,
          306)
          our woodland-tongue (II, vi, 339) [1]
          elven-tongue (II, vi, 342, 343; IV, iv, 659; App. F, I, 1129) [1]
          Elvish speech (III, viii, 555)
          noble tongue (V, viii, 864) [2]
          Sindarin (App. D, 1107, 1110, 1111; App. E, 1114, 1115, 1116, 1117;
          App. E, II, 1120, 1121, 1122, 1123, 1126; App. F, I, 1127, 1128,
          1131)
          S. (App. E, I, 1113, 1114, 1115)
          Grey-elven (App. E, II, 1123; App. F, I, 1127, 1128, 1130, 1132)

          Apologies for any omissions or errors. Also for the missing
          diacritical marks in these notes:

          [1] S&H apparently refer to the terms "our woodland-tongue"
          and "elven-tongue" in the chapter "Lothlorien" when they index the
          same pages under both "Sindarin" and "Silvan Elves, language of",
          presumably per the first note to Appendix F (p. 1127), which says
          that Frodo at first misunderstood the accented Sindarin speech of
          the Lorien elves to be a Silvan tongue. (Though perhaps that note
          also should be indexed under "Silvan Elves, language of"?)

          [2] S&H give "noble tongue" as a name for Quenya. The only
          appearance I found for "noble tongue" is in "The Houses of Healing",
          where the herb-master uses it to describe the name "athelas",
          contrasting it to the name "asea aranion" in the "Valinorean"
          language, which is Quenya. I have listed "noble tongue" under
          Sindarin on the assumption that "athelas" is therefore a Sindarin
          word...

          ...and after searching for "athelas" on the lambengolmor list, and
          reading this post and its successors:

          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor/message/850

          I am a bit lost. So "athelas" is Sindarin, but with an unresolved
          etymology suggesting a strong element of Quenya (or Old English?) --
          is that right?
        • Cathy Akers-Jordan
          RTFL! Thank you, John! You are right: the Elrond bit is particularly funny. Cathy
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 11, 2007
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            RTFL! Thank you, John! You are right: the Elrond bit is particularly
            funny.

            Cathy

            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:
            >
            > Here's something very silly I happened to come across last week:
            > Peter Jackson's 'The Lord of the RIngs' as experienced by a bunch of
            > numskulls trying to play thorough the story as if it were a typical
            > D&D adventure.
            >
            > http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612
            >
            >
            > The story is still ongoing, after about a hundred and twenty
            > installments; they're currently messing around in the middle of the
            > Battle of the Pelennor Fields. The best episode of those I've seen so
            > far is the one covering Elrond's sudden appearance in Rohan, here
            > presented as a desperate attempt by the DM to fit a plot-hole caused
            > by narrator inattention:
            >
            > http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1148
            >
            > So, if you like D&D jokes, enjoy. If not, or if you don't like to
            > see the Jackson films mocked, better to give this a pass.
            >
            > --John R.
            >
          • William Cloud Hicklin
            ... with an unresolved ... (or Old English?) -- ... It s definitely Sindarin. I would suggest that the etymology isn t unresolved, either, although the note
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 11, 2007
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              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin
              DeTardo" <emptyD@...> wrote:

              >
              > I am a bit lost. So "athelas" is Sindarin, but
              with an unresolved
              > etymology suggesting a strong element of Quenya
              (or Old English?) --
              > is that right?


              It's definitely Sindarin. I would suggest that
              the etymology isn't unresolved, either, although
              the note in question hasn't been published (except
              via Internet: my fault, but the wars were still in
              the future at the time). The plant apparently was
              not native to Middle-earth, but brought by the
              Noldor; they called it in Quenya athea > asea (see
              The Shibboleth of Feanor). In exile, the Sindarin
              name was coined: regular cognate athe- compounded
              with -las. My speculation is that Asea Aranion
              was a specifically Numenorean term, the King being
              associated with healing in that culture; the
              translation would be something like 'kingsbalm.'

              The link to Old English aethele was entirely my
              guess- but it wouldn't be the only time OE found
              its way into the Elvish tongues: see CT's note on
              Orgel in Children of Hurin, or for that matter S.
              orch (from OE orc: Tolkien expressly said this
              word was 'Rohirric,' and it plainly comes from OE
              orc-neas and not L. orcus.).
            • William Cloud Hicklin
              OMG, Dr John, that is *screamingly* funny! And I ve been that DM, too.
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 11, 2007
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                OMG, Dr John, that is *screamingly* funny! And I've
                been that DM, too.
              • Merlin DeTardo
                ... unresolved, either, although the note in question... Thanks very much for that explanation. ... tongues: see CT s note on Orgel in Children of Hurin... I
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 15, 2007
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                  >>"William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...> wrote:

                  >>>---"Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@> wrote:
                  >>>So "athelas" is Sindarin, but with an unresolved etymology ...?

                  >> It's definitely Sindarin. I would suggest that the etymology isn't
                  unresolved, either, although the note in question...

                  Thanks very much for that explanation.


                  >>...it wouldn't be the only time OE found its way into the Elvish
                  tongues: see CT's note on Orgel in Children of Hurin...

                  I can't find Orgel in the list of names at the back of _The Children
                  of Hurin_ -- which character is that?

                  Just kidding. Do you think Christopher Tolkien is right that it
                  was "too late" to change "Saeros" to "Orgol"?
                • William Cloud Hicklin
                  ... right that it ... Well, look at it from the perspective of CRT s purpose in publishing CoH. He very openly intended it to serve as a bridge to The
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 15, 2007
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                    --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin
                    DeTardo" <emptyD@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > Just kidding. Do you think Christopher Tolkien is
                    right that it
                    > was "too late" to change "Saeros" to "Orgol"?
                    >

                    Well, look at it from the perspective of CRT's
                    purpose in publishing CoH. He very openly intended
                    it to serve as a bridge to The Silmarillion for
                    readers of The Lord of the Rings. Not direct to
                    HoME! Thus in this one case consistency overrode
                    what was generally his 'extreme scrupulosity' in not
                    altering the Narn papers at all beyond, in effect,
                    copy-editing. (He was fortunate in the fact that the
                    Narn papers, to all appearances, predate the 1958-60
                    writings which underly so many 'canonicity' debates).
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