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Re: Medieval studies

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  • William Cloud Hicklin
    ... speaking ... Elvish is ... theory, speak ... Romance, or ... to cut him a break on ... Elvish when he means ... thought you knew enough ... West,
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 10, 2007
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      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff
      <sacnoth@...> wrote:
      >
      > On Jul 9, 2007, at 12:58 PM, William Cloud
      Hicklin wrote:
      > > Fair enough, but the column's reference to
      'speaking'
      > > or 'knowing' or 'knowing of' the language
      "Elvish" is
      > > simply ignorance. One can't, even in
      theory,
      speak
      > > "Elvish" any more than one could speak
      Romance,
      or
      > > Finno-Ugric.
      >
      > Or Indo-European. Of course. But I'm willing
      to
      cut him a break on
      > that point, since Bilbo himself often uses
      "Elvish" when he means
      > Sindarin
      > (e.g. "Translations from the Elvish" or "I
      thought you knew enough
      > Elvish at least to know dun-adan: Man of the
      West, Numenorean").

      Ok, good point. Come to think of it, I don't
      believe the names "Sindarin" or "Quenya"
      actually appear anywhere in the narrative proper
      (unsurprisingly in the former case, since at the
      time it was still "Noldorin.")
    • Lynn Maudlin
      Oh, John, thank you so much - this is great (I must send it to my son, who will also love it); just really good facial expressions and word bubbles! Um,
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 10, 2007
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        Oh, John, thank you so much - this is great (I must send it to my son,
        who will also love it); just really good facial expressions and word
        bubbles! <grin>

        Um, are we living in a bizarre world where Jackson LotR fans the
        equivalent of Muslims reacting to "Danish" cartoons? The LotR novel
        gets lampooned ("Bored of the Rings") and that's minimally tolerable
        if not okay and sometimes actually embraced in a kind of dualism but
        to mock the movie causes great frothing? Surely not--

        -- Lynn --

        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:
        >
        > Here's something very silly I happened to come across last week:
        > Peter Jackson's 'The Lord of the RIngs' as experienced by a bunch of
        > numskulls trying to play thorough the story as if it were a typical
        > D&D adventure.
        >
        > http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612
        >
        >
        > The story is still ongoing, after about a hundred and twenty
        > installments; they're currently messing around in the middle of the
        > Battle of the Pelennor Fields. The best episode of those I've seen so
        > far is the one covering Elrond's sudden appearance in Rohan, here
        > presented as a desperate attempt by the DM to fit a plot-hole caused
        > by narrator inattention:
        >
        > http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1148
        >
        > So, if you like D&D jokes, enjoy. If not, or if you don't like to
        > see the Jackson films mocked, better to give this a pass.
        >
        > --John R.
        >
      • Lynn Maudlin
        Remember: That which does not kill you was simply not permitted to do so for the purposes of the plot. bwahahahahahahahaha!
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 10, 2007
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          "Remember: That which does not kill you was simply not permitted to do
          so for the purposes of the plot."

          bwahahahahahahahaha!
        • Merlin DeTardo
          ... or Quenya actually appear anywhere in the narrative proper (unsurprisingly in the former case, since at the time it was still Noldorin. ) I never
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 10, 2007
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            >>---"William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...> wrote:
            >>Come to think of it, I don't believe the names "Sindarin"
            or "Quenya" actually appear anywhere in the narrative proper
            (unsurprisingly in the former case, since at the time it was
            still "Noldorin.")


            I never noticed that (or didn't not notice those missing words,
            rather)! Your comment sent me on a search of _LotR_, using Scull
            and Hammond's (wonderful) index to the 2005 one-volume, paperback
            edition. No doubt I'm repeating what others have done before, but
            for fun or further comment, here are the appearances of "Quenya"
            or "Sindarin", by those or other names, in order of appearance;
            references are to Book, Chapter, page(s):

            ---Quenya---
            High-elven speech (I, iii, 81)
            Ancient Tongue (I, iii, 81)
            Ancient Speech (I, iii, 85)
            ancient tongue of the Elves beyond the Sea (II, viii, 377)
            high tongue of old (V, viii, 863)
            Valinorean (V, viii, 864)
            High-elven (App. A, I, ii, 1038; App. A, I, iii, 1039; App. F, I,
            1127; App. F, II, 1137)
            Quenya (App. D, 1107, 1110, 1111; App. E, I, 1113, 1114, 1115, 1116;
            App. E, II, 1118, 1120, 1121, 1122, 1123, 1126; App. F, I, 1127,
            1128, 1131)
            High-elven Quenya (App. E, 1113; App. F, I, 1128)
            Q. (App. E, 1113, 1114, 1115)
            High-elven tongue (App. F, I, 1131)

            ---Sindarin---
            Elvish (II, i, 233; II, iv, 307)
            Elvish tongue (II, iii, 283; App. A, III, 1074)
            elven-tongue of the West of Middle-earth in the Elder Days (II, iv,
            306)
            our woodland-tongue (II, vi, 339) [1]
            elven-tongue (II, vi, 342, 343; IV, iv, 659; App. F, I, 1129) [1]
            Elvish speech (III, viii, 555)
            noble tongue (V, viii, 864) [2]
            Sindarin (App. D, 1107, 1110, 1111; App. E, 1114, 1115, 1116, 1117;
            App. E, II, 1120, 1121, 1122, 1123, 1126; App. F, I, 1127, 1128,
            1131)
            S. (App. E, I, 1113, 1114, 1115)
            Grey-elven (App. E, II, 1123; App. F, I, 1127, 1128, 1130, 1132)

            Apologies for any omissions or errors. Also for the missing
            diacritical marks in these notes:

            [1] S&H apparently refer to the terms "our woodland-tongue"
            and "elven-tongue" in the chapter "Lothlorien" when they index the
            same pages under both "Sindarin" and "Silvan Elves, language of",
            presumably per the first note to Appendix F (p. 1127), which says
            that Frodo at first misunderstood the accented Sindarin speech of
            the Lorien elves to be a Silvan tongue. (Though perhaps that note
            also should be indexed under "Silvan Elves, language of"?)

            [2] S&H give "noble tongue" as a name for Quenya. The only
            appearance I found for "noble tongue" is in "The Houses of Healing",
            where the herb-master uses it to describe the name "athelas",
            contrasting it to the name "asea aranion" in the "Valinorean"
            language, which is Quenya. I have listed "noble tongue" under
            Sindarin on the assumption that "athelas" is therefore a Sindarin
            word...

            ...and after searching for "athelas" on the lambengolmor list, and
            reading this post and its successors:

            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor/message/850

            I am a bit lost. So "athelas" is Sindarin, but with an unresolved
            etymology suggesting a strong element of Quenya (or Old English?) --
            is that right?
          • Cathy Akers-Jordan
            RTFL! Thank you, John! You are right: the Elrond bit is particularly funny. Cathy
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 11, 2007
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              RTFL! Thank you, John! You are right: the Elrond bit is particularly
              funny.

              Cathy

              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:
              >
              > Here's something very silly I happened to come across last week:
              > Peter Jackson's 'The Lord of the RIngs' as experienced by a bunch of
              > numskulls trying to play thorough the story as if it were a typical
              > D&D adventure.
              >
              > http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612
              >
              >
              > The story is still ongoing, after about a hundred and twenty
              > installments; they're currently messing around in the middle of the
              > Battle of the Pelennor Fields. The best episode of those I've seen so
              > far is the one covering Elrond's sudden appearance in Rohan, here
              > presented as a desperate attempt by the DM to fit a plot-hole caused
              > by narrator inattention:
              >
              > http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1148
              >
              > So, if you like D&D jokes, enjoy. If not, or if you don't like to
              > see the Jackson films mocked, better to give this a pass.
              >
              > --John R.
              >
            • William Cloud Hicklin
              ... with an unresolved ... (or Old English?) -- ... It s definitely Sindarin. I would suggest that the etymology isn t unresolved, either, although the note
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 11, 2007
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                --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin
                DeTardo" <emptyD@...> wrote:

                >
                > I am a bit lost. So "athelas" is Sindarin, but
                with an unresolved
                > etymology suggesting a strong element of Quenya
                (or Old English?) --
                > is that right?


                It's definitely Sindarin. I would suggest that
                the etymology isn't unresolved, either, although
                the note in question hasn't been published (except
                via Internet: my fault, but the wars were still in
                the future at the time). The plant apparently was
                not native to Middle-earth, but brought by the
                Noldor; they called it in Quenya athea > asea (see
                The Shibboleth of Feanor). In exile, the Sindarin
                name was coined: regular cognate athe- compounded
                with -las. My speculation is that Asea Aranion
                was a specifically Numenorean term, the King being
                associated with healing in that culture; the
                translation would be something like 'kingsbalm.'

                The link to Old English aethele was entirely my
                guess- but it wouldn't be the only time OE found
                its way into the Elvish tongues: see CT's note on
                Orgel in Children of Hurin, or for that matter S.
                orch (from OE orc: Tolkien expressly said this
                word was 'Rohirric,' and it plainly comes from OE
                orc-neas and not L. orcus.).
              • William Cloud Hicklin
                OMG, Dr John, that is *screamingly* funny! And I ve been that DM, too.
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 11, 2007
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                  OMG, Dr John, that is *screamingly* funny! And I've
                  been that DM, too.
                • Merlin DeTardo
                  ... unresolved, either, although the note in question... Thanks very much for that explanation. ... tongues: see CT s note on Orgel in Children of Hurin... I
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 15, 2007
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                    >>"William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...> wrote:

                    >>>---"Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@> wrote:
                    >>>So "athelas" is Sindarin, but with an unresolved etymology ...?

                    >> It's definitely Sindarin. I would suggest that the etymology isn't
                    unresolved, either, although the note in question...

                    Thanks very much for that explanation.


                    >>...it wouldn't be the only time OE found its way into the Elvish
                    tongues: see CT's note on Orgel in Children of Hurin...

                    I can't find Orgel in the list of names at the back of _The Children
                    of Hurin_ -- which character is that?

                    Just kidding. Do you think Christopher Tolkien is right that it
                    was "too late" to change "Saeros" to "Orgol"?
                  • William Cloud Hicklin
                    ... right that it ... Well, look at it from the perspective of CRT s purpose in publishing CoH. He very openly intended it to serve as a bridge to The
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 15, 2007
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                      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin
                      DeTardo" <emptyD@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > Just kidding. Do you think Christopher Tolkien is
                      right that it
                      > was "too late" to change "Saeros" to "Orgol"?
                      >

                      Well, look at it from the perspective of CRT's
                      purpose in publishing CoH. He very openly intended
                      it to serve as a bridge to The Silmarillion for
                      readers of The Lord of the Rings. Not direct to
                      HoME! Thus in this one case consistency overrode
                      what was generally his 'extreme scrupulosity' in not
                      altering the Narn papers at all beyond, in effect,
                      copy-editing. (He was fortunate in the fact that the
                      Narn papers, to all appearances, predate the 1958-60
                      writings which underly so many 'canonicity' debates).
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