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Re: Medieval studies

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  • lynnmaudlin
    ... Not to mention Volapuk...! But really, Carl, we re supposed to infer what he *means* and not simply understand what he said... [eye-rolling] -- Lynn --
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 8, 2007
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      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...> wrote:
      >
      > John Gravois, the author of the article linked to, writes:
      >
      > "Elvish, a language created by Tolkien, is one of the most widely
      > spoken invented languages — along with Esperanto and Klingon."
      >
      > Let's see: Esperanto is spoken by between 100,000 and 2 million
      > people (according to Wikipedia). Klingon is probably spoken (slowly,
      > I'm sure; as opposed to simply being written, slowly) by no more than
      > a few dozen people. And precisely no one speaks "Elvish", either
      > Quenya or Sindarin (not even Tolkien could do so casually).
      >
      > "Elvish" can certainly be classified with Klingon in terms of _the
      > number of people who study it_ (but can't actually speak it
      > casually). But both are surely dwarfed by even the most conservative
      > estimate of those who actually can and do speak Esperanto.
      >
      > Carl


      Not to mention Volapuk...! But really, Carl, we're supposed to infer
      what he *means* and not simply understand what he said... [eye-rolling]

      -- Lynn --
    • John D Rateliff
      Here s something very silly I happened to come across last week: Peter Jackson s The Lord of the RIngs as experienced by a bunch of numskulls trying to play
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 9, 2007
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        Here's something very silly I happened to come across last week:
        Peter Jackson's 'The Lord of the RIngs' as experienced by a bunch of
        numskulls trying to play thorough the story as if it were a typical
        D&D adventure.

        http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612


        The story is still ongoing, after about a hundred and twenty
        installments; they're currently messing around in the middle of the
        Battle of the Pelennor Fields. The best episode of those I've seen so
        far is the one covering Elrond's sudden appearance in Rohan, here
        presented as a desperate attempt by the DM to fit a plot-hole caused
        by narrator inattention:

        http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1148

        So, if you like D&D jokes, enjoy. If not, or if you don't like to
        see the Jackson films mocked, better to give this a pass.

        --John R.
      • John D Rateliff
        Perhaps it would have been more accurate for him to have written one of the most widely KNOWN invented languages , since a great many people know about it and
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 9, 2007
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          Perhaps it would have been more accurate for him to have written "one
          of the most widely KNOWN invented languages", since a great many
          people know about it and may even have some idea how it looks and
          sounds, but they can't actually read or write it. So its recognition
          threshold is high, though its mastery is extremely low.
          --JDR

          On Jul 8, 2007, at 10:32 PM, lynnmaudlin wrote:
          > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...>
          > wrote:
          >>
          >> John Gravois, the author of the article linked to, writes:
          >>
          >> "Elvish, a language created by Tolkien, is one of the most widely
          >> spoken invented languages — along with Esperanto and Klingon."
          >>
          >> Let's see: Esperanto is spoken by between 100,000 and 2 million
          >> people (according to Wikipedia). Klingon is probably spoken (slowly,
          >> I'm sure; as opposed to simply being written, slowly) by no more than
          >> a few dozen people. And precisely no one speaks "Elvish", either
          >> Quenya or Sindarin (not even Tolkien could do so casually).
          >>
          >> "Elvish" can certainly be classified with Klingon in terms of _the
          >> number of people who study it_ (but can't actually speak it
          >> casually). But both are surely dwarfed by even the most conservative
          >> estimate of those who actually can and do speak Esperanto.
          >>
          >> Carl
          >
          > Not to mention Volapuk...! But really, Carl, we're supposed to infer
          > what he *means* and not simply understand what he said... [eye-
          > rolling]
          >
          > -- Lynn --
        • William Cloud Hicklin
          ... have written one ... a great many ... how it looks and ... So its recognition ... low. Fair enough, but the column s reference to speaking or knowing
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 9, 2007
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            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff
            <sacnoth@...> wrote:
            >
            > Perhaps it would have been more accurate for him to
            have written
            "one
            > of the most widely KNOWN invented languages", since
            a great many
            > people know about it and may even have some idea
            how it looks and
            > sounds, but they can't actually read or write it.
            So its
            recognition
            > threshold is high, though its mastery is extremely
            low.


            Fair enough, but the column's reference to 'speaking'
            or 'knowing' or 'knowing of' the language "Elvish" is
            simply ignorance. One can't, even in theory, speak
            "Elvish" any more than one could speak Romance, or
            Finno-Ugric.
          • Linda DeMars
            What a delight! You certainly brightened my day. As a fan of Bill and Ted movies, at least the first one, I really appreciated this silly link and laughed as I
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 9, 2007
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              What a delight! You certainly brightened my day. As a fan of Bill and Ted
              movies, at least the first one, I really appreciated this silly link and
              laughed as I scrolled through each one.

              Linda D.

              On 7/9/07, John D Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:
              >
              > Here's something very silly I happened to come across last week:
              > Peter Jackson's 'The Lord of the RIngs' as experienced by a bunch of
              > numskulls trying to play thorough the story as if it were a typical
              > D&D adventure.
              >
              > http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612
              >
              > The story is still ongoing, after about a hundred and twenty
              > installments; they're currently messing around in the middle of the
              > Battle of the Pelennor Fields. The best episode of those I've seen so
              > far is the one covering Elrond's sudden appearance in Rohan, here
              > presented as a desperate attempt by the DM to fit a plot-hole caused
              > by narrator inattention:
              >
              > http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1148
              >
              > So, if you like D&D jokes, enjoy. If not, or if you don't like to
              > see the Jackson films mocked, better to give this a pass.
              >
              > --John R.
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John D Rateliff
              ... Or Indo-European. Of course. But I m willing to cut him a break on that point, since Bilbo himself often uses Elvish when he means Sindarin (e.g.
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 9, 2007
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                On Jul 9, 2007, at 12:58 PM, William Cloud Hicklin wrote:
                > Fair enough, but the column's reference to 'speaking'
                > or 'knowing' or 'knowing of' the language "Elvish" is
                > simply ignorance. One can't, even in theory, speak
                > "Elvish" any more than one could speak Romance, or
                > Finno-Ugric.

                Or Indo-European. Of course. But I'm willing to cut him a break on
                that point, since Bilbo himself often uses "Elvish" when he means
                Sindarin
                (e.g. "Translations from the Elvish" or "I thought you knew enough
                Elvish at least to know dun-adan: Man of the West, Numenorean").
                Finally getting a chance to read the article itself, I think it
                does a pretty good job of pointing out that today's scholars don't
                become medievalists by reading BEOWULF in college; they discover a
                love of medieval literature either through reading JRRT, or playing
                D&D, or (in the vast majority of cases) both.
                It's funny that as a gamer I see pieces like this every year
                where a reporter goes to regale people about the odd going-ons at
                GenCon; seeing the same treatment transferred to a scholarly
                conference is bemusing. Though as a purist I do scoff at the idea
                that finding a computer to play D&D Online isn't the same thing as
                finding a place to play D&D.
                Thanks to Wendell for posting the link.
                --JDR

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Merlin DeTardo
                ... himself often uses Elvish when he means Sindarin (e.g. Translations from the Elvish or I thought you knew enough Elvish at least to know dun-adan: Man
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 9, 2007
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                  >>John D Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:
                  >>But I'm willing to cut him a break on that point, since Bilbo
                  himself often uses "Elvish" when he means Sindarin
                  (e.g. "Translations from the Elvish" or "I thought you knew enough
                  Elvish at least to know dun-adan: Man of the West, Numenorean").

                  Good point, but in the first instance, mightn't Bilbo have
                  translated from works in both Sindarin and Quenya at Rivendell?


                  >>I think it does a pretty good job of pointing out that today's
                  scholars don't become medievalists by reading BEOWULF in college;
                  they discover a love of medieval literature either through reading
                  JRRT, or playing D&D, or (in the vast majority of cases) both.

                  In further support of that point, Richard Scott Nokes and other
                  medievalists responded to the article with additional comments on
                  their introduction to medievalism by way of Tolkien, RPG, etc. at
                  Nokes' blog:

                  http://unlocked-wordhoard.blogspot.com/2007/07/sir-nokes-knight-of-
                  faculty-lounge.html
                • William Cloud Hicklin
                  ... speaking ... Elvish is ... theory, speak ... Romance, or ... to cut him a break on ... Elvish when he means ... thought you knew enough ... West,
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 10, 2007
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                    --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff
                    <sacnoth@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On Jul 9, 2007, at 12:58 PM, William Cloud
                    Hicklin wrote:
                    > > Fair enough, but the column's reference to
                    'speaking'
                    > > or 'knowing' or 'knowing of' the language
                    "Elvish" is
                    > > simply ignorance. One can't, even in
                    theory,
                    speak
                    > > "Elvish" any more than one could speak
                    Romance,
                    or
                    > > Finno-Ugric.
                    >
                    > Or Indo-European. Of course. But I'm willing
                    to
                    cut him a break on
                    > that point, since Bilbo himself often uses
                    "Elvish" when he means
                    > Sindarin
                    > (e.g. "Translations from the Elvish" or "I
                    thought you knew enough
                    > Elvish at least to know dun-adan: Man of the
                    West, Numenorean").

                    Ok, good point. Come to think of it, I don't
                    believe the names "Sindarin" or "Quenya"
                    actually appear anywhere in the narrative proper
                    (unsurprisingly in the former case, since at the
                    time it was still "Noldorin.")
                  • Lynn Maudlin
                    Oh, John, thank you so much - this is great (I must send it to my son, who will also love it); just really good facial expressions and word bubbles! Um,
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 10, 2007
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                      Oh, John, thank you so much - this is great (I must send it to my son,
                      who will also love it); just really good facial expressions and word
                      bubbles! <grin>

                      Um, are we living in a bizarre world where Jackson LotR fans the
                      equivalent of Muslims reacting to "Danish" cartoons? The LotR novel
                      gets lampooned ("Bored of the Rings") and that's minimally tolerable
                      if not okay and sometimes actually embraced in a kind of dualism but
                      to mock the movie causes great frothing? Surely not--

                      -- Lynn --

                      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Here's something very silly I happened to come across last week:
                      > Peter Jackson's 'The Lord of the RIngs' as experienced by a bunch of
                      > numskulls trying to play thorough the story as if it were a typical
                      > D&D adventure.
                      >
                      > http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612
                      >
                      >
                      > The story is still ongoing, after about a hundred and twenty
                      > installments; they're currently messing around in the middle of the
                      > Battle of the Pelennor Fields. The best episode of those I've seen so
                      > far is the one covering Elrond's sudden appearance in Rohan, here
                      > presented as a desperate attempt by the DM to fit a plot-hole caused
                      > by narrator inattention:
                      >
                      > http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1148
                      >
                      > So, if you like D&D jokes, enjoy. If not, or if you don't like to
                      > see the Jackson films mocked, better to give this a pass.
                      >
                      > --John R.
                      >
                    • Lynn Maudlin
                      Remember: That which does not kill you was simply not permitted to do so for the purposes of the plot. bwahahahahahahahaha!
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 10, 2007
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                        "Remember: That which does not kill you was simply not permitted to do
                        so for the purposes of the plot."

                        bwahahahahahahahaha!
                      • Merlin DeTardo
                        ... or Quenya actually appear anywhere in the narrative proper (unsurprisingly in the former case, since at the time it was still Noldorin. ) I never
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 10, 2007
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                          >>---"William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...> wrote:
                          >>Come to think of it, I don't believe the names "Sindarin"
                          or "Quenya" actually appear anywhere in the narrative proper
                          (unsurprisingly in the former case, since at the time it was
                          still "Noldorin.")


                          I never noticed that (or didn't not notice those missing words,
                          rather)! Your comment sent me on a search of _LotR_, using Scull
                          and Hammond's (wonderful) index to the 2005 one-volume, paperback
                          edition. No doubt I'm repeating what others have done before, but
                          for fun or further comment, here are the appearances of "Quenya"
                          or "Sindarin", by those or other names, in order of appearance;
                          references are to Book, Chapter, page(s):

                          ---Quenya---
                          High-elven speech (I, iii, 81)
                          Ancient Tongue (I, iii, 81)
                          Ancient Speech (I, iii, 85)
                          ancient tongue of the Elves beyond the Sea (II, viii, 377)
                          high tongue of old (V, viii, 863)
                          Valinorean (V, viii, 864)
                          High-elven (App. A, I, ii, 1038; App. A, I, iii, 1039; App. F, I,
                          1127; App. F, II, 1137)
                          Quenya (App. D, 1107, 1110, 1111; App. E, I, 1113, 1114, 1115, 1116;
                          App. E, II, 1118, 1120, 1121, 1122, 1123, 1126; App. F, I, 1127,
                          1128, 1131)
                          High-elven Quenya (App. E, 1113; App. F, I, 1128)
                          Q. (App. E, 1113, 1114, 1115)
                          High-elven tongue (App. F, I, 1131)

                          ---Sindarin---
                          Elvish (II, i, 233; II, iv, 307)
                          Elvish tongue (II, iii, 283; App. A, III, 1074)
                          elven-tongue of the West of Middle-earth in the Elder Days (II, iv,
                          306)
                          our woodland-tongue (II, vi, 339) [1]
                          elven-tongue (II, vi, 342, 343; IV, iv, 659; App. F, I, 1129) [1]
                          Elvish speech (III, viii, 555)
                          noble tongue (V, viii, 864) [2]
                          Sindarin (App. D, 1107, 1110, 1111; App. E, 1114, 1115, 1116, 1117;
                          App. E, II, 1120, 1121, 1122, 1123, 1126; App. F, I, 1127, 1128,
                          1131)
                          S. (App. E, I, 1113, 1114, 1115)
                          Grey-elven (App. E, II, 1123; App. F, I, 1127, 1128, 1130, 1132)

                          Apologies for any omissions or errors. Also for the missing
                          diacritical marks in these notes:

                          [1] S&H apparently refer to the terms "our woodland-tongue"
                          and "elven-tongue" in the chapter "Lothlorien" when they index the
                          same pages under both "Sindarin" and "Silvan Elves, language of",
                          presumably per the first note to Appendix F (p. 1127), which says
                          that Frodo at first misunderstood the accented Sindarin speech of
                          the Lorien elves to be a Silvan tongue. (Though perhaps that note
                          also should be indexed under "Silvan Elves, language of"?)

                          [2] S&H give "noble tongue" as a name for Quenya. The only
                          appearance I found for "noble tongue" is in "The Houses of Healing",
                          where the herb-master uses it to describe the name "athelas",
                          contrasting it to the name "asea aranion" in the "Valinorean"
                          language, which is Quenya. I have listed "noble tongue" under
                          Sindarin on the assumption that "athelas" is therefore a Sindarin
                          word...

                          ...and after searching for "athelas" on the lambengolmor list, and
                          reading this post and its successors:

                          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/lambengolmor/message/850

                          I am a bit lost. So "athelas" is Sindarin, but with an unresolved
                          etymology suggesting a strong element of Quenya (or Old English?) --
                          is that right?
                        • Cathy Akers-Jordan
                          RTFL! Thank you, John! You are right: the Elrond bit is particularly funny. Cathy
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 11, 2007
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                            RTFL! Thank you, John! You are right: the Elrond bit is particularly
                            funny.

                            Cathy

                            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff <sacnoth@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Here's something very silly I happened to come across last week:
                            > Peter Jackson's 'The Lord of the RIngs' as experienced by a bunch of
                            > numskulls trying to play thorough the story as if it were a typical
                            > D&D adventure.
                            >
                            > http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612
                            >
                            >
                            > The story is still ongoing, after about a hundred and twenty
                            > installments; they're currently messing around in the middle of the
                            > Battle of the Pelennor Fields. The best episode of those I've seen so
                            > far is the one covering Elrond's sudden appearance in Rohan, here
                            > presented as a desperate attempt by the DM to fit a plot-hole caused
                            > by narrator inattention:
                            >
                            > http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1148
                            >
                            > So, if you like D&D jokes, enjoy. If not, or if you don't like to
                            > see the Jackson films mocked, better to give this a pass.
                            >
                            > --John R.
                            >
                          • William Cloud Hicklin
                            ... with an unresolved ... (or Old English?) -- ... It s definitely Sindarin. I would suggest that the etymology isn t unresolved, either, although the note
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jul 11, 2007
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                              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin
                              DeTardo" <emptyD@...> wrote:

                              >
                              > I am a bit lost. So "athelas" is Sindarin, but
                              with an unresolved
                              > etymology suggesting a strong element of Quenya
                              (or Old English?) --
                              > is that right?


                              It's definitely Sindarin. I would suggest that
                              the etymology isn't unresolved, either, although
                              the note in question hasn't been published (except
                              via Internet: my fault, but the wars were still in
                              the future at the time). The plant apparently was
                              not native to Middle-earth, but brought by the
                              Noldor; they called it in Quenya athea > asea (see
                              The Shibboleth of Feanor). In exile, the Sindarin
                              name was coined: regular cognate athe- compounded
                              with -las. My speculation is that Asea Aranion
                              was a specifically Numenorean term, the King being
                              associated with healing in that culture; the
                              translation would be something like 'kingsbalm.'

                              The link to Old English aethele was entirely my
                              guess- but it wouldn't be the only time OE found
                              its way into the Elvish tongues: see CT's note on
                              Orgel in Children of Hurin, or for that matter S.
                              orch (from OE orc: Tolkien expressly said this
                              word was 'Rohirric,' and it plainly comes from OE
                              orc-neas and not L. orcus.).
                            • William Cloud Hicklin
                              OMG, Dr John, that is *screamingly* funny! And I ve been that DM, too.
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jul 11, 2007
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                                OMG, Dr John, that is *screamingly* funny! And I've
                                been that DM, too.
                              • Merlin DeTardo
                                ... unresolved, either, although the note in question... Thanks very much for that explanation. ... tongues: see CT s note on Orgel in Children of Hurin... I
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jul 15, 2007
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                                  >>"William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...> wrote:

                                  >>>---"Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@> wrote:
                                  >>>So "athelas" is Sindarin, but with an unresolved etymology ...?

                                  >> It's definitely Sindarin. I would suggest that the etymology isn't
                                  unresolved, either, although the note in question...

                                  Thanks very much for that explanation.


                                  >>...it wouldn't be the only time OE found its way into the Elvish
                                  tongues: see CT's note on Orgel in Children of Hurin...

                                  I can't find Orgel in the list of names at the back of _The Children
                                  of Hurin_ -- which character is that?

                                  Just kidding. Do you think Christopher Tolkien is right that it
                                  was "too late" to change "Saeros" to "Orgol"?
                                • William Cloud Hicklin
                                  ... right that it ... Well, look at it from the perspective of CRT s purpose in publishing CoH. He very openly intended it to serve as a bridge to The
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jul 15, 2007
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                                    --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin
                                    DeTardo" <emptyD@...> wrote:

                                    >
                                    > Just kidding. Do you think Christopher Tolkien is
                                    right that it
                                    > was "too late" to change "Saeros" to "Orgol"?
                                    >

                                    Well, look at it from the perspective of CRT's
                                    purpose in publishing CoH. He very openly intended
                                    it to serve as a bridge to The Silmarillion for
                                    readers of The Lord of the Rings. Not direct to
                                    HoME! Thus in this one case consistency overrode
                                    what was generally his 'extreme scrupulosity' in not
                                    altering the Narn papers at all beyond, in effect,
                                    copy-editing. (He was fortunate in the fact that the
                                    Narn papers, to all appearances, predate the 1958-60
                                    writings which underly so many 'canonicity' debates).
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