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Re: [mythsoc] Re: it's all in Tolkien

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  • David Emerson
    ... Gee, I wonder why that would come to mind these days...... emerdavid ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet
    Message 1 of 24 , May 21, 2007
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      >Yes, for some reason recently I've been thinking a lot about Boromir and
      >how his desire to protect Gondor with all available weapons overrides his
      >willingness to listen to those whose moral concerns caution that such a
      >course would only lead to evil.

      Gee, I wonder why that would come to mind these days......

      emerdavid

      ________________________________________
      PeoplePC Online
      A better way to Internet
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    • Walter Padgett
      There have always been wars and greed and powers blinded and numbed to any ordinary sense of decency in their pursuit of security from enemies. Who knows what
      Message 2 of 24 , May 21, 2007
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        There have always been wars and greed and powers blinded and numbed to
        any ordinary sense of decency in their pursuit of security from
        enemies. Who knows what course leads to good or evil?

        On 5/21/07, David Emerson <emerdavid@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > >Yes, for some reason recently I've been thinking a lot about Boromir and
        > >how his desire to protect Gondor with all available weapons overrides his
        > >willingness to listen to those whose moral concerns caution that such a
        > >course would only lead to evil.
        >
        > Gee, I wonder why that would come to mind these days......
        >
        > emerdavid
        >
        > ________________________________________
        > PeoplePC Online
        > A better way to Internet
        > http://www.peoplepc.com
        >
      • lynnmaudlin
        ... Boromir and ... overrides his
        Message 3 of 24 , May 21, 2007
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          ...you thinking of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad again, emerDavid?


          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, David Emerson <emerdavid@...> wrote:
          >
          > >Yes, for some reason recently I've been thinking a lot about
          Boromir and
          > >how his desire to protect Gondor with all available weapons
          overrides his
          > >willingness to listen to those whose moral concerns caution that such a
          > >course would only lead to evil.
          >
          > Gee, I wonder why that would come to mind these days......
          >
          > emerdavid
        • David Bratman
          ... No, he s Saruman. He wants to be a bad guy too, so he wants to get him one of those. Try again for Boromir: a putative good guy, strong and fearless, who
          Message 4 of 24 , May 22, 2007
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            lynnmaudlin <lynnmaudlin@...> wrote:
            >...you thinking of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad again, emerDavid?

            No, he's Saruman. He wants to be a bad guy too, so he wants to get him one of those.

            Try again for Boromir: a putative good guy, strong and fearless, who declares that he just wants strength to defend his country in a just cause, but who considers the crisis so extreme that he's willing to set aside all caution and all advice from other peoples to get it. And when that doesn't work, he eventually casts aside all restraint and even all morality, calling more judicious folk perverse and even traitors. This reminds me of somebody.
          • William Cloud Hicklin
            ... blinded and numbed to ... security from ... evil? ... And of course not just today. During the time the LR was being written, we were confronted with
            Message 5 of 24 , May 22, 2007
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              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Walter
              Padgett" <wpadgett@...> wrote:
              >
              > There have always been wars and greed and powers
              blinded and numbed to
              > any ordinary sense of decency in their pursuit of
              security from
              > enemies. Who knows what course leads to good or
              evil?
              >


              And of course not just today. During the time the
              LR was being written, we were confronted with near-
              Sauronian evil, and didn't keep ourselves entirely
              on the straight and level to defeat it. Besides
              the obvious cases like Hiroshima and Dresden, the
              "good guys" were perfectly capable of torture,
              murdering civilians, denying quarter (many Allied
              units had a no-prisoners policy for SS), and
              otherwise letting wrath override scruples. Tolkien
              even concedes that the Elves of the War of the
              Jewels didn't always play by the Rules.
            • David Emerson
              ... When was I before? emerdavid ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
              Message 6 of 24 , May 22, 2007
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                >...you thinking of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad again, emerDavid?

                When was I before?

                emerdavid

                ________________________________________
                PeoplePC Online
                A better way to Internet
                http://www.peoplepc.com
              • David Emerson
                ... The Shadow knows... emerdavid ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
                Message 7 of 24 , May 22, 2007
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                  >There have always been wars and greed and powers blinded and numbed to
                  >any ordinary sense of decency in their pursuit of security from
                  >enemies. Who knows what course leads to good or evil?

                  The Shadow knows...

                  emerdavid

                  ________________________________________
                  PeoplePC Online
                  A better way to Internet
                  http://www.peoplepc.com
                • David Bratman
                  ... Eomer asked that question. He said, How shall a man judge what to do in such times? And Aragorn had an answer. He said, As ever he has judged. Good
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 22, 2007
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                    At 08:54 PM 5/21/2007 -0400, Walter Padgett wrote:

                    >There have always been wars and greed and powers blinded and numbed to
                    >any ordinary sense of decency in their pursuit of security from
                    >enemies. Who knows what course leads to good or evil?

                    Eomer asked that question. He said, "How shall a man judge what to do in
                    such times?"

                    And Aragorn had an answer. He said, "As ever he has judged. Good and ill
                    have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and
                    Dwarves and other among Men."

                    Our moral principles should be enough to tell us deep wrongness when we see
                    it. Implausible hypotheses from action-adventure TV shows only fog the
                    issue. Tolkien is very clear on this: wrongness is wrongness no matter the
                    excuse. To think otherwise is to become Saruman, and I shudder when
                    Sarumans take power in real life. Returning to fiction, this, I maintain,
                    is why George Lucas never made Star Wars Episode VII. Given the moral
                    premises he set up, and the behavior of his hero, it is impossible for Luke
                    Skywalker to do otherwise than become another Darth Vader.


                    At 02:40 PM 5/22/2007 +0000, William Cloud Hicklin wrote:

                    >And of course not just today. During the time the
                    >LR was being written, we were confronted with near-
                    >Sauronian evil, and didn't keep ourselves entirely
                    >on the straight and level to defeat it. Besides
                    >the obvious cases like Hiroshima and Dresden, the
                    >"good guys" were perfectly capable of torture,
                    >murdering civilians, denying quarter (many Allied
                    >units had a no-prisoners policy for SS), and
                    >otherwise letting wrath override scruples. Tolkien
                    >even concedes that the Elves of the War of the
                    >Jewels didn't always play by the Rules.

                    And Tolkien, if you read his letters, was quite scornful of the idea that
                    the Allies were spotless or definitionally good. Fortunately he had no-one
                    telling him that he would be objectively supporting Hitler by his criticisms.

                    And also, the Elves and Men of the First Age are not excused their
                    misbehavior. It is part of what makes the Silmarillion a tragedy that it
                    led to things like that. But then the whole war began with hubris,
                    Feanor's as much as Morgoth's, and that poisoned the entire effort.

                    I think what makes _The Lord of the Rings_ so crystal clear in morality by
                    comparison is that the wars of Beleriand taught the Elves a lesson. They
                    can't behave like they did then; it is simply wrong. The Elves of the
                    Third Age are abashed; they want to expiate the sins of their past; and
                    indeed, that's one important reason those in Middle-earth are still hanging
                    around there for.
                  • Merlin DeTardo
                    ... when we see it. Implausible hypotheses from action-adventure TV shows only fog the issue. Tolkien is very clear on this: wrongness is wrongness no matter
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 22, 2007
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                      >>---David Bratman <dbratman@...> wrote:
                      >>Our moral principles should be enough to tell us deep wrongness
                      when we see it. Implausible hypotheses from action-adventure TV
                      shows only fog the issue. Tolkien is very clear on this: wrongness
                      is wrongness no matter the excuse. To think otherwise is to become
                      Saruman, and I shudder when Sarumans take power in real life.
                      Returning to fiction, this, I maintain, is why George Lucas never
                      made Star Wars Episode VII. Given the moral premises he set up, and
                      the behavior of his hero, it is impossible for Luke Skywalker to do
                      otherwise than become another Darth Vader.

                      Would it be stretching the bounds of this group too far to ask for
                      some further explanation of this argument -- is the Star Wars sextet
                      sufficiently mythopoeic to allow for an elaboration here? (Or if
                      you've already done so, could you indicate where?) Because to me, it
                      seems that Luke Skywalker, in refusing at the last to fight, is
                      choosing a path quite opposed to his father. This climax of _Return
                      of the Jedi_ is actually similar to that in _LotR_: like Frodo, Luke
                      finds himself confronted with a power too great for him, but he and
                      his cause are saved by his mercy. (Though the parallel is spoiled
                      because the other heroes, in what could be seen as the film's
                      equivalent of _LotR's_ Aragorn subplot, succeed without regard to
                      Luke's achievement.)

                      -Merlin DeTardo
                    • ebadams2000
                      ... idea that ... had no-one ... criticisms. Don t bet on that. As long as democracies have gone to war, there has been the question of where the line is
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 23, 2007
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                        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, David Bratman <dbratman@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        > And Tolkien, if you read his letters, was quite scornful of the
                        idea that
                        > the Allies were spotless or definitionally good. Fortunately he
                        had no-one
                        > telling him that he would be objectively supporting Hitler by his
                        criticisms.


                        Don't bet on that. As long as democracies have gone to war, there has
                        been the question of where the line is between loyal opposition and
                        supporting your own side's defeat. Tolkien himself was not unmindful
                        of this difference. Notice the difference between Eomer, who
                        disagrees with his "Administration" (King Theoden) but remains loyal,
                        and Grima Wormtongue. And which one do you think would have been
                        faster and louder to jump up and down and yell "Don't question my
                        patriotism!"?
                        Justified or not, many (but not all) of those on one side of the
                        debates regarding our own current "Orc Wars" believe that many on the
                        opposite side have taken Grima as their role model.
                      • lynnmaudlin
                        There s a fascinating film called The Fog of War which is primarily interviews with Robert McNamara (sec ty of Defense under JFK and LBJ) - the filmmakers
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 23, 2007
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                          There's a fascinating film called "The Fog of War" which is primarily
                          interviews with Robert McNamara (sec'ty of Defense under JFK and LBJ)
                          - the filmmakers clearly have their agenda but look *beyond that* to
                          the reality of what McNamara says - and he abouts the point in a
                          conflict when everything becomes foggy and it's very hard to see, to
                          analyze what actions will have what effect, etc. - and it makes me
                          think of the War of the Ring on several occasions. You get a sense of
                          it, in the micro, with Aragorn's "all my choices have gone amiss"
                          statement.

                          -- Lynn --

                          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Walter Padgett" <wpadgett@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > There have always been wars and greed and powers blinded and numbed to
                          > any ordinary sense of decency in their pursuit of security from
                          > enemies. Who knows what course leads to good or evil?
                          >
                        • lynnmaudlin
                          note to self: don t make political jokes... ... him one of those. ... declares that he just wants strength to defend his country in a just cause, but who
                          Message 12 of 24 , May 23, 2007
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                            note to self: don't make political jokes...


                            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, David Bratman <dbratman@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > lynnmaudlin <lynnmaudlin@...> wrote:
                            > >...you thinking of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad again, emerDavid?
                            >
                            > No, he's Saruman. He wants to be a bad guy too, so he wants to get
                            him one of those.
                            >
                            > Try again for Boromir: a putative good guy, strong and fearless, who
                            declares that he just wants strength to defend his country in a just
                            cause, but who considers the crisis so extreme that he's willing to
                            set aside all caution and all advice from other peoples to get it.
                            And when that doesn't work, he eventually casts aside all restraint
                            and even all morality, calling more judicious folk perverse and even
                            traitors. This reminds me of somebody.
                            >
                          • David Bratman
                            ... Eomer. Grima was far too subtle to get indignant in defense of himself. Remember that when Grima said things along the lines of questioning Eomer s
                            Message 13 of 24 , May 23, 2007
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                              At 07:54 PM 5/23/2007 +0000, ebadams2000 wrote:

                              >Don't bet on that. As long as democracies have gone to war, there has
                              >been the question of where the line is between loyal opposition and
                              >supporting your own side's defeat. Tolkien himself was not unmindful
                              >of this difference. Notice the difference between Eomer, who
                              >disagrees with his "Administration" (King Theoden) but remains loyal,
                              >and Grima Wormtongue. And which one do you think would have been
                              >faster and louder to jump up and down and yell "Don't question my
                              >patriotism!"?

                              Eomer. Grima was far too subtle to get indignant in defense of himself.
                              Remember that when Grima said things along the lines of questioning Eomer's
                              patriotism, Eomer threatened to kill him, which certainly falls in the
                              "jumping up and down and yelling" category, and Thoden had him thrown in
                              the clink.


                              >Justified or not, many (but not all) of those on one side of the
                              >debates regarding our own current "Orc Wars" believe that many on the
                              >opposite side have taken Grima as their role model.

                              Grima was an actual traitor to his king and country. To say someone has
                              taken him as a role model is a charge of the utmost seriousness, and
                              deserves all the jumping up and down indignation in response that it can get.
                            • lynnmaudlin
                              Many believe that many on the opposite side have taken Grima as their role model? wow... I can t think of a single person I know who believes that, on either
                              Message 14 of 24 , May 23, 2007
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                                "Many" believe that many on the opposite side have taken Grima as
                                their role model?

                                wow... I can't think of a single person I know who believes that, on
                                either side, so I'm not quite sure where this "many" figure comes from...?

                                -- Lynn --

                                --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "ebadams2000" <ebadams2000@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Justified or not, many (but not all) of those on one side of the
                                > debates regarding our own current "Orc Wars" believe that many on the
                                > opposite side have taken Grima as their role model.
                                >
                              • Walter Padgett
                                When a competition for scarce resources ensues, doesn t each act in his own interest? In this case, what is good for the one is not good for the other. These
                                Message 15 of 24 , May 23, 2007
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                                  When a competition for scarce resources ensues, doesn't each act in his own
                                  interest? In this case, what is good for the one is not good for the
                                  other. These days, at least for me sometimes, it makes some sense to
                                  identify with the Orcs and the Southrons under Sauron's dominion. I think
                                  some of Tolkiens' greatest fears about what state of evil modern society
                                  could come to given the advances in the ideological control of the many by
                                  the few through improvements in the quick and effective dissemination of
                                  propaganda, the design of consumerist society, the rise of powerful
                                  corporations, the competitive nature of capitalist democratic government,
                                  and other such phenomena as he warned about, have materialized. The social
                                  norms and economic necessities to which I am encouraged or obliged to
                                  conform rather discourage, deter or prevent me from thinking and acting
                                  according to the moral principles and sensibilities that should be guiding
                                  me to activism or protest. There's a lot of things that go on around me
                                  that aren't right, and I ought to say something or do something about it,
                                  but I've got to look out for my own interests, not make waves, and observe
                                  the seemingly all-important rule of "CYA" in this new bullshit government
                                  job I started last month, even if it is clear that it's a waste, or
                                  something important is being neglected, or someone may suffer just so we can
                                  get our numbers up. There's an example of the conservation of power in
                                  action. My creative life is sacrificed. I don't have time to think or
                                  write or research anything. I would like to make mention of Tom Shippey's
                                  article on "Tolkien as a Post-War Writer" because he talks about Tolkien
                                  having a different reaction to the times in which he lived-- different from
                                  other post-war writers such as Golding and Orwell, and he offered a message
                                  that was positive or hopeful or something like that, suggesting the
                                  evocation of "traditional" values-- but I'm driven away from making a
                                  decent comment here, not because I'm lazy or stupid, but because I've got to
                                  get to bed so I can get up and be rested for tomorrow morning. I can't work
                                  on it later. Timing is everything in these comments, so I've got to send it
                                  now, or just forget about it. It's these two values competing here, and
                                  which course is the one that leads to the good? I better go. I've got some
                                  wicked things to do for the State of Indiana tomorrow, and I need to be
                                  fresh for it. (What's said about Maeglin in Gondolin? . . . that he would
                                  shirk no toil or burden if thereby he might have power? That's me!)




                                  On 5/23/07, lynnmaudlin <lynnmaudlin@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > "Many" believe that many on the opposite side have taken Grima as
                                  > their role model?
                                  >
                                  > wow... I can't think of a single person I know who believes that, on
                                  > either side, so I'm not quite sure where this "many" figure comes from...?
                                  >
                                  > -- Lynn --
                                  >
                                  > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com <mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com>, "ebadams2000"
                                  > <ebadams2000@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Justified or not, many (but not all) of those on one side of the
                                  > > debates regarding our own current "Orc Wars" believe that many on the
                                  > > opposite side have taken Grima as their role model.
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Walkermonk@aol.com
                                  In a message dated 5/23/2007 10:02:12 PM Central Daylight Time, wpadgett@gmail.com writes: When a competition for scarce resources ensues, doesn t each act in
                                  Message 16 of 24 , May 24, 2007
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                                    In a message dated 5/23/2007 10:02:12 PM Central Daylight Time,
                                    wpadgett@... writes:

                                    When a competition for scarce resources ensues, doesn't each act in his own
                                    interest?

                                    -----------

                                    And when in history has the above *not* been the case for most, if not
                                    necessarily all, of humankind? This isn't exactly a recent phenomena. Tolkien was
                                    very familiar with need and scarcity and the suffering attached to both. So I'm
                                    failing to see how this interesting and impassioned comment sheds any
                                    particularly new light on the discussion. (BTW, for an excellent discussion on
                                    principle and one's proper job, might I suggest DL Sayers' "Gaudy Night".)

                                    Grace Walker Monk



                                    ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • William Cloud Hicklin
                                    ... have taken Grima as ... who believes that, on ... many figure comes from...? ... Start at www.moveon.org, and proceed through your choice of left- and
                                    Message 17 of 24 , May 24, 2007
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                                      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com,
                                      "lynnmaudlin" <lynnmaudlin@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > "Many" believe that many on the opposite side
                                      have taken Grima as
                                      > their role model?
                                      >
                                      > wow... I can't think of a single person I know
                                      who believes that, on
                                      > either side, so I'm not quite sure where this
                                      "many" figure comes from...?
                                      >
                                      Start at www.moveon.org, and proceed through your
                                      choice of left- and right-wing blogs. There are
                                      lots of Righties who accuse the Lefties of rooting
                                      for the Bad Guys- and enough Lefties who actually
                                      do so to give the Righties traction.

                                      Whereas during WWII there were only a handful of
                                      British fascists who tried to maintain that the
                                      Allies were wrongfully picking on poor innocent
                                      peace-loving little Hitler, today there are really
                                      rather a lot of Wormtongues. George Galloway comes
                                      immediately to mind, as do Noam Chomsky and Harold
                                      Pinter and Gore Vidal and, come to think of it,
                                      most of the doctrinaire Left. Walter touched on
                                      their poisoned whisperings inadvertently in his
                                      post- the notion that this is really all about
                                      'scarce resources' (read: oil), and that the
                                      jihadist threat is just a propaganda tool concocted
                                      by Exxon's acolytes.

                                      It's one thing to oppose Shrub's hamhanded and
                                      pigheaded policies, and quite another to pretend
                                      that Bin-Laden doesn't mean to do precisely what he
                                      has said he is going to do- just like poor innocent
                                      peace-loving Hitler and his little book that too
                                      few took seriously until too late. The former is
                                      loyal opposition; the latter is either denial, or
                                      approaches petit-traison.

                                      It seems to me that Bush falls very much into
                                      Boromir/Denethor-think. This is *wrong*- but
                                      Boromir's crime didn't somehow legitimise Sauron,
                                      any more than Dresden legitimised Hitler.
                                    • David Bratman
                                      ... I realize this is off topic, but I cannot let it pass unchallenged. If this is intended to say that these individuals, who oppose the war in Iraq,
                                      Message 18 of 24 , May 24, 2007
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                                        At 03:42 PM 5/24/2007 +0000, William Cloud Hicklin wrote:

                                        >Whereas during WWII there were only a handful of
                                        >British fascists who tried to maintain that the
                                        >Allies were wrongfully picking on poor innocent
                                        >peace-loving little Hitler, today there are really
                                        >rather a lot of Wormtongues. George Galloway comes
                                        >immediately to mind, as do Noam Chomsky and Harold
                                        >Pinter and Gore Vidal and, come to think of it,
                                        >most of the doctrinaire Left.

                                        I realize this is off topic, but I cannot let it pass unchallenged. If
                                        this is intended to say that these individuals, who oppose the war in Iraq,
                                        supported Saddam's regime, or Al Qaeda, the way Grima supported Saruman's,
                                        it is a charge often made but is simply untrue. The people making it do
                                        not grasp what is being said, or the fact that opposing the war does not
                                        mean supporting Saddam or Al Qaeda. If you wish to discuss this further,
                                        I'd prefer it be taken to private e-mail.

                                        Although nobody in the UK except those few fascists actually supported
                                        Hitler's cause during the war - and the most prominent British fascist,
                                        Oswald Mosley, was not among them, even though he was imprisoned as a
                                        danger to the state - there were plenty of exactly the sort of Hitler
                                        apologists you're describing before the war. They claimed that Hitler
                                        wanted peace despite evidence of his continuing aggression, and they
                                        dismissed evidence for his persecution of the Jews or even supported it.
                                        These people were mostly very right-wing, except for the Communists who
                                        supported Hitler after his pact with the Soviet Union were announced. The
                                        historian Andrew Roberts (notably right-wing himself) has an excellent
                                        essay in his book _Eminent Churchillians_ about how these people gradually
                                        reconciled themselves with Churchill.


                                        >It seems to me that Bush falls very much into
                                        >Boromir/Denethor-think. This is *wrong*- but
                                        >Boromir's crime didn't somehow legitimise Sauron,
                                        >any more than Dresden legitimised Hitler.

                                        But since nobody is claiming that Bush's actions legitimized Saddam, the
                                        implication that anyone thinks that the misactions of A legitimize those of
                                        B can only operate an attempt to use the misactions of B to legitimize
                                        those of A.
                                      • lynnmaudlin
                                        ... But I would still be amazed if many of those bloggers believe many on the opposite side have taken Grima Wormtongue as their model-- that s a level of
                                        Message 19 of 24 , May 24, 2007
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                                          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com,
                                          > "lynnmaudlin" <lynnmaudlin@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > "Many" believe that many on the opposite side
                                          > have taken Grima as
                                          > > their role model?
                                          > >
                                          > > wow... I can't think of a single person I know
                                          > who believes that, on
                                          > > either side, so I'm not quite sure where this
                                          > "many" figure comes from...?
                                          > >
                                          > Start at www.moveon.org, and proceed through your
                                          > choice of left- and right-wing blogs. There are
                                          > lots of Righties who accuse the Lefties of rooting
                                          > for the Bad Guys- and enough Lefties who actually
                                          > do so to give the Righties traction.


                                          But I would still be amazed if "many" of those bloggers believe many
                                          on the opposite side have taken Grima Wormtongue as their model--
                                          that's a level of attribution, a kind of presuming that I know what
                                          motivates and inspires someone with whom I have a strong difference of
                                          opinion.

                                          What I'm trying to say is that it's one thing to observe the behaviors
                                          of certain people and think, "Sheeesh, they remind me of Grima!" and
                                          it's quite another to observe the behaviors of those people and say,
                                          "That person has modeled their behavior on Grima." I don't actually
                                          think I'm splitting hairs, here - but I could be wrong! <grin>

                                          As for correspondences between Hitler's rise to power and radical
                                          Islam, yeah, I think they definitely studied the same play book (the
                                          reversal of causality is impressive) - and we've got plenty of folsk
                                          vying for the Chamberlain and Lindbergh positions. What's that quote
                                          from Hegel? "The one thing History teaches is that man learns nothing
                                          from History"...

                                          *sigh*

                                          -- Lynn --
                                        • Mike Foster
                                          Those who ignore the lessons of the past are compelled to repeat them. --Georges Santayana. And those of us who don t ignore them are compelled to watch them
                                          Message 20 of 24 , May 24, 2007
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                                            "Those who ignore the lessons of the past are compelled to repeat them."
                                            --Georges Santayana.

                                            And those of us who don't ignore them are compelled to watch them being
                                            repeated by those who have ignored them.

                                            Mike

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                            Of lynnmaudlin
                                            Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 4:36 PM
                                            To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [mythsoc] Re: it's all in Tolkien

                                            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                                            "William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                                            > "lynnmaudlin" <lynnmaudlin@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > "Many" believe that many on the opposite side
                                            > have taken Grima as
                                            > > their role model?
                                            > >
                                            > > wow... I can't think of a single person I know
                                            > who believes that, on
                                            > > either side, so I'm not quite sure where this
                                            > "many" figure comes from...?
                                            > >
                                            > Start at www.moveon.org, and proceed through your
                                            > choice of left- and right-wing blogs. There are
                                            > lots of Righties who accuse the Lefties of rooting
                                            > for the Bad Guys- and enough Lefties who actually
                                            > do so to give the Righties traction.

                                            But I would still be amazed if "many" of those bloggers believe many
                                            on the opposite side have taken Grima Wormtongue as their model--
                                            that's a level of attribution, a kind of presuming that I know what
                                            motivates and inspires someone with whom I have a strong difference of
                                            opinion.

                                            What I'm trying to say is that it's one thing to observe the behaviors
                                            of certain people and think, "Sheeesh, they remind me of Grima!" and
                                            it's quite another to observe the behaviors of those people and say,
                                            "That person has modeled their behavior on Grima." I don't actually
                                            think I'm splitting hairs, here - but I could be wrong! <grin>

                                            As for correspondences between Hitler's rise to power and radical
                                            Islam, yeah, I think they definitely studied the same play book (the
                                            reversal of causality is impressive) - and we've got plenty of folsk
                                            vying for the Chamberlain and Lindbergh positions. What's that quote
                                            from Hegel? "The one thing History teaches is that man learns nothing
                                            from History"...

                                            *sigh*

                                            -- Lynn --



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Mike Foster
                                            Due to the ready.FIRE!...aim nature of E-mail, I misquoted Santayana. I believe the correct aphorism is Those who ignore the lessons of history are
                                            Message 21 of 24 , May 24, 2007
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                                              Due to the "ready.FIRE!...aim" nature of E-mail, I misquoted Santayana.


                                              I believe the correct aphorism is "Those who ignore the lessons of
                                              history are condemned to repeat them." Sorry. Better men than I-C.S.
                                              Lewis and G.K. Chesterton, to name but two-have quoted from memory and
                                              been inaccurate. But that doesn't excuse my error.

                                              Mike

                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                              Of Mike Foster
                                              Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 5:09 PM
                                              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: it's all in Tolkien

                                              "Those who ignore the lessons of the past are compelled to repeat them."
                                              --Georges Santayana.

                                              And those of us who don't ignore them are compelled to watch them being
                                              repeated by those who have ignored them.

                                              Mike

                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                                              [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
                                              Behalf
                                              Of lynnmaudlin
                                              Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 4:36 PM
                                              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                                              Subject: [mythsoc] Re: it's all in Tolkien

                                              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                                              "William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                                              > "lynnmaudlin" <lynnmaudlin@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > "Many" believe that many on the opposite side
                                              > have taken Grima as
                                              > > their role model?
                                              > >
                                              > > wow... I can't think of a single person I know
                                              > who believes that, on
                                              > > either side, so I'm not quite sure where this
                                              > "many" figure comes from...?
                                              > >
                                              > Start at www.moveon.org, and proceed through your
                                              > choice of left- and right-wing blogs. There are
                                              > lots of Righties who accuse the Lefties of rooting
                                              > for the Bad Guys- and enough Lefties who actually
                                              > do so to give the Righties traction.

                                              But I would still be amazed if "many" of those bloggers believe many
                                              on the opposite side have taken Grima Wormtongue as their model--
                                              that's a level of attribution, a kind of presuming that I know what
                                              motivates and inspires someone with whom I have a strong difference of
                                              opinion.

                                              What I'm trying to say is that it's one thing to observe the behaviors
                                              of certain people and think, "Sheeesh, they remind me of Grima!" and
                                              it's quite another to observe the behaviors of those people and say,
                                              "That person has modeled their behavior on Grima." I don't actually
                                              think I'm splitting hairs, here - but I could be wrong! <grin>

                                              As for correspondences between Hitler's rise to power and radical
                                              Islam, yeah, I think they definitely studied the same play book (the
                                              reversal of causality is impressive) - and we've got plenty of folsk
                                              vying for the Chamberlain and Lindbergh positions. What's that quote
                                              from Hegel? "The one thing History teaches is that man learns nothing
                                              from History"...

                                              *sigh*

                                              -- Lynn --


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Mike Foster
                                              And yet another source has it: Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Blame it on the translators, then, shall we? So many tongues,
                                              Message 22 of 24 , May 24, 2007
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                                                And yet another source has it:
                                                "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
                                                Blame it on the translators, then, shall we? So many tongues, so many
                                                worms.
                                                Mike, who isn't going to look for any more versions of this proverbial
                                                proverb.


                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                Of Mike Foster
                                                Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 5:16 PM
                                                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: it's all in Tolkien

                                                Due to the "ready.FIRE!...aim" nature of E-mail, I misquoted Santayana.

                                                I believe the correct aphorism is "Those who ignore the lessons of
                                                history are condemned to repeat them." Sorry. Better men than I-C.S.
                                                Lewis and G.K. Chesterton, to name but two-have quoted from memory and
                                                been inaccurate. But that doesn't excuse my error.

                                                Mike

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                                                [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
                                                Behalf
                                                Of Mike Foster
                                                Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 5:09 PM
                                                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                                                Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: it's all in Tolkien

                                                "Those who ignore the lessons of the past are compelled to repeat them."
                                                --Georges Santayana.

                                                And those of us who don't ignore them are compelled to watch them being
                                                repeated by those who have ignored them.

                                                Mike

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                                                [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
                                                Behalf
                                                Of lynnmaudlin
                                                Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 4:36 PM
                                                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                                                Subject: [mythsoc] Re: it's all in Tolkien

                                                --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                                                "William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                                                > "lynnmaudlin" <lynnmaudlin@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > "Many" believe that many on the opposite side
                                                > have taken Grima as
                                                > > their role model?
                                                > >
                                                > > wow... I can't think of a single person I know
                                                > who believes that, on
                                                > > either side, so I'm not quite sure where this
                                                > "many" figure comes from...?
                                                > >
                                                > Start at www.moveon.org, and proceed through your
                                                > choice of left- and right-wing blogs. There are
                                                > lots of Righties who accuse the Lefties of rooting
                                                > for the Bad Guys- and enough Lefties who actually
                                                > do so to give the Righties traction.

                                                But I would still be amazed if "many" of those bloggers believe many
                                                on the opposite side have taken Grima Wormtongue as their model--
                                                that's a level of attribution, a kind of presuming that I know what
                                                motivates and inspires someone with whom I have a strong difference of
                                                opinion.

                                                What I'm trying to say is that it's one thing to observe the behaviors
                                                of certain people and think, "Sheeesh, they remind me of Grima!" and
                                                it's quite another to observe the behaviors of those people and say,
                                                "That person has modeled their behavior on Grima." I don't actually
                                                think I'm splitting hairs, here - but I could be wrong! <grin>

                                                As for correspondences between Hitler's rise to power and radical
                                                Islam, yeah, I think they definitely studied the same play book (the
                                                reversal of causality is impressive) - and we've got plenty of folsk
                                                vying for the Chamberlain and Lindbergh positions. What's that quote
                                                from Hegel? "The one thing History teaches is that man learns nothing
                                                from History"...

                                                *sigh*

                                                -- Lynn --

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • lynnmaudlin
                                                But the point is well taken: it s hard to watch others blithely setting themselves up to repeat the same stupid mistakes you yourself bitterly suffered... ack!
                                                Message 23 of 24 , May 24, 2007
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                                                  But the point is well taken: it's hard to watch others blithely
                                                  setting themselves up to repeat the same stupid mistakes you yourself
                                                  bitterly suffered... ack!

                                                  -- Lynn --

                                                  --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Foster" <mafoster@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > And yet another source has it:
                                                  > "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
                                                  > Blame it on the translators, then, shall we? So many tongues, so many
                                                  > worms.
                                                  > Mike, who isn't going to look for any more versions of this proverbial
                                                  > proverb.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                  > Of Mike Foster
                                                  > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 5:16 PM
                                                  > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: it's all in Tolkien
                                                  >
                                                  > Due to the "ready.FIRE!...aim" nature of E-mail, I misquoted Santayana.
                                                  >
                                                  > I believe the correct aphorism is "Those who ignore the lessons of
                                                  > history are condemned to repeat them." Sorry. Better men than I-C.S.
                                                  > Lewis and G.K. Chesterton, to name but two-have quoted from memory and
                                                  > been inaccurate. But that doesn't excuse my error.
                                                  >
                                                  > Mike
                                                  >
                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > From: mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                                                  > [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
                                                  > Behalf
                                                  > Of Mike Foster
                                                  > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 5:09 PM
                                                  > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                                                  > Subject: RE: [mythsoc] Re: it's all in Tolkien
                                                  >
                                                  > "Those who ignore the lessons of the past are compelled to repeat them."
                                                  > --Georges Santayana.
                                                  >
                                                  > And those of us who don't ignore them are compelled to watch them being
                                                  > repeated by those who have ignored them.
                                                  >
                                                  > Mike
                                                  >
                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > From: mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                                                  > [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com] On
                                                  > Behalf
                                                  > Of lynnmaudlin
                                                  > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2007 4:36 PM
                                                  > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com
                                                  > Subject: [mythsoc] Re: it's all in Tolkien
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                                                  > "William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@>
                                                  > wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> .com,
                                                  > > "lynnmaudlin" <lynnmaudlin@> wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > "Many" believe that many on the opposite side
                                                  > > have taken Grima as
                                                  > > > their role model?
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > wow... I can't think of a single person I know
                                                  > > who believes that, on
                                                  > > > either side, so I'm not quite sure where this
                                                  > > "many" figure comes from...?
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > Start at www.moveon.org, and proceed through your
                                                  > > choice of left- and right-wing blogs. There are
                                                  > > lots of Righties who accuse the Lefties of rooting
                                                  > > for the Bad Guys- and enough Lefties who actually
                                                  > > do so to give the Righties traction.
                                                  >
                                                  > But I would still be amazed if "many" of those bloggers believe many
                                                  > on the opposite side have taken Grima Wormtongue as their model--
                                                  > that's a level of attribution, a kind of presuming that I know what
                                                  > motivates and inspires someone with whom I have a strong difference of
                                                  > opinion.
                                                  >
                                                  > What I'm trying to say is that it's one thing to observe the behaviors
                                                  > of certain people and think, "Sheeesh, they remind me of Grima!" and
                                                  > it's quite another to observe the behaviors of those people and say,
                                                  > "That person has modeled their behavior on Grima." I don't actually
                                                  > think I'm splitting hairs, here - but I could be wrong! <grin>
                                                  >
                                                  > As for correspondences between Hitler's rise to power and radical
                                                  > Islam, yeah, I think they definitely studied the same play book (the
                                                  > reversal of causality is impressive) - and we've got plenty of folsk
                                                  > vying for the Chamberlain and Lindbergh positions. What's that quote
                                                  > from Hegel? "The one thing History teaches is that man learns nothing
                                                  > from History"...
                                                  >
                                                  > *sigh*
                                                  >
                                                  > -- Lynn --
                                                  >
                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                • not_thou
                                                  Credit due: reading some old _Mythprints_ last night, I noticed that David had identified basically the same parallels I did, but in more detail, and more than
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Feb 28, 2010
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Credit due: reading some old _Mythprints_ last night, I noticed that David had identified basically the same parallels I did, but in more detail, and more than 20 years earlier, in an editorial on _Return of the Jedi_ in the July 1983 issue.

                                                    (This post is completely coincidental to the major discussion of late -- I hadn't logged onto the Mythsoc list for the past few days until this evening, and didn't know that parallels between Lucas's and Tolkien's stories had come up again.)

                                                    -Merlin


                                                    --- "Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@...> wrote:
                                                    >>>---David Bratman <dbratman@> wrote:
                                                    >>>Returning to fiction, this, I maintain, is why
                                                    >>>George Lucas never made Star Wars Episode VII.
                                                    >>>Given the moral premises he set up, and the
                                                    >>>behavior of his hero, it is impossible for Luke
                                                    >>>Skywalker to do otherwise than become another Darth
                                                    >>>Vader.

                                                    >[I]t seems that Luke Skywalker, in refusing at the last
                                                    >to fight, is choosing a path quite opposed to his father.
                                                    >This climax of _Return of the Jedi_ is actually similar
                                                    >to that in _LotR_: like Frodo, Luke finds himself confronted
                                                    >with a power too great for him, but he and his cause are
                                                    >saved by his mercy. (Though the parallel is spoiled
                                                    >because the other heroes, in what could be seen as the
                                                    >film's equivalent of _LotR's_ Aragorn subplot, succeed
                                                    >without regard to Luke's achievement.)
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