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Re: [mythsoc] Re: Kalevala

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  • Bonnie Callahan
    Re the Relationship between Kalevala & Tolkien: Hello Jason & all-- A possible tip-off, don t know if this is common knowledge--forgive me if I m behind the
    Message 1 of 20 , May 8, 2007
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      Re the Relationship between Kalevala & Tolkien:

      Hello Jason & all--

      A possible tip-off, don't know if this is common
      knowledge--forgive me if I'm behind the loop.

      I know the Finnish & Hungarian mythologies are closely
      related, as are their languages. Maybe some clues are
      present therein.

      Does anyone know of this? I'd love to see some of
      the scholarship on it.

      I'm pretty sure Tolkien was fascinated by all of this.

      I also wonder as to his interest in Russian lore.
      "The Lay of Beren & Tinuviel" has always affected me
      as being somehow related to the story line of
      N. Rimskii-Korsakovs' "The Legend of the
      Invisible City of Kitezh".

      I saw the Orcs as being so much like the Tartars. The
      meeting of the hero & heroine at the outset as being
      our own Beren & Luthien.

      Alexei K, want to weigh in?

      In a mythic frame of mind, Bonnie
      ***************

      --- Jason Fisher <visualweasel@...> wrote:

      > > Does anyone have any recommendation( s) for a good
      > translation
      > > of the Kalevala?
      > >
      > > With the recent interest in the story of Turin,
      > I'm of a mind to read
      > > what inspired JRRT to write it. And I know there
      > are people on this
      > > list who know more about it than I do.
      >
      > The ones I've read are Kirby and Magoun. I like
      > Magoun; it's more faithful than pretty, which is
      > what I look for in a translation. Kirby may be worth
      > reading, too -- depending on your purposes --
      > because his is the one Tolkien first read. But it's
      > not very good, by the accounts of those who are
      > acquainted with the original Finnish.
      >
      > Jason
      >
      >
      > The Mythopoeic Society website
      > http://www.mythsoc.org
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Jason Fisher
      Bonnie, Szerbusz! :) ... Although most linguists agree in grouping Finnish and Hungarian together in the Finno-Ugric Family, they re not quite as close as that
      Message 2 of 20 , May 8, 2007
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        Bonnie,

        Szerbusz! :)

        > I know the Finnish & Hungarian mythologies are closely
        > related, as are their languages. Maybe some clues are
        > present therein.

        Although most linguists agree in grouping Finnish and Hungarian together in the Finno-Ugric Family, they're not quite as close as that might suggest � from what relatively little I know (in fact, I pretty much exhausted it with "szerbusz", so take this for what it's worth :). In fact, they're at opposite ends of the spectrum, from Finnic on the one hand to Ugric on the other. Still, as you point out, there are a number of linguistic similarities (particularly, phonological) that might well be worth investigation. I don't know anything about Hungarian mythology, though; what are some examples of its similarities to Finnish folklore?

        > I also wonder as to his interest in Russian lore.
        > "The Lay of Beren & Tinuviel" has always affected
        > me as being somehow related to the story line of
        > N. Rimskii-Korsakovs' "The Legend of the
        > Invisible City of Kitezh".

        An interesting idea. We do know Tolkien pottered around with the Russian language a little. But the timing here could be a little problematic. The opera, according to Wikipedia, debuted in 1907. And "The Tale of Tin�viel" (the earliest form of the legend) was first put down around 1917, I believe. I guess there could be a connection, but it might be difficult to establish � especially since Tolkien would have been a teenager in the Midlands at the time the opera was making its first splash. There are other, more obvious sources for Beren and L�thien, but the idea of Russian folklore as having a secondary effect is intereting. Mark Hooker may know more about this, as he's studied Russia(n) and Tolkien, separately and together, for quite some time.

        Best,
        Jase

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • alexeik@aol.com
        ... From: visualweasel@yahoo.com To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 8 May 2007 10:49 AM Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Kalevala
        Message 3 of 20 , May 8, 2007
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          -----Original Message-----
          From: visualweasel@...
          To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tue, 8 May 2007 10:49 AM
          Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Kalevala


          <<Although most linguists agree in grouping Finnish and Hungarian together in the
          Finno-Ugric Family, they're not quite as close as that might suggest – from what
          relatively little I know (in fact, I pretty much exhausted it with "szerbusz",
          so take this for what it's worth :). In fact, they're at opposite ends of the
          spectrum, from Finnic on the one hand to Ugric on the other. Still, as you point
          out, there are a number of linguistic similarities (particularly, phonological)
          that might well be worth investigation. I don't know anything about Hungarian
          mythology, though; what are some examples of its similarities to Finnish
          folklore?>>
          I recall Tolkien saying someplace (it may have been in one of the late 1960s interviews) that he found
          it remarkable that two related languages like Finnish and Hungarian should have such different aesthetic
          impacts, due to their very different phonetic systems. Obviously he found Finnish more attractive (giving
          its most pleasing traits to Quenya), but he did see Hungarian as intriguing (he has a Hungarian
          character and introduces a number of Hungarian names in _The Notion Club Papers_)and actually created a
          language inspired by Hungarian, which he called Magu, although he doesn't seem to have given it a story
          context (Carl and Pat would know a great deal more about it than I do).
          No coherent Hungarian mythology in story form (on the order of the _Kalevala_) has survived, but much of
          it can be reconstructed from folk traditions and comparison with the lore of other Finno-Ugric peoples.

          > I also wonder as to his interest in Russian lore.
          > "The Lay of Beren & Tinuviel" has always affected
          > me as being somehow related to the story line of
          > N. Rimskii-Korsakovs' "The Legend of the
          > Invisible City of Kitezh".

          An interesting idea. We do know Tolkien pottered around with the Russian
          language a little. But the timing here could be a little problematic. The opera,
          according to Wikipedia, debuted in 1907. And "The Tale of Tinúviel" (the
          earliest form of the legend) was first put down around 1917, I believe. I guess
          there could be a connection, but it might be difficult to establish – especially
          since Tolkien would have been a teenager in the Midlands at the time the opera
          was making its first splash. There are other, more obvious sources for Beren and
          Lúthien, but the idea of Russian folklore as having a secondary effect is
          intereting. Mark Hooker may know more about this, as he's studied Russia(n) and
          Tolkien, separately and together, for quite some time.

          <<
          I've long been pointing out the many striking similarities between the story of Beren and Luthien and the
          imagery of Russian fairy tales. Luthien's enchantment of Morgoth and his court to recapture the stolen
          silmaril is almost a reproduction of the Firebird (Zhar-Ptitsa)'s enchantment of Kashchei and his court
          which leads to the theft of Kashchei's external soul (as immortalised in the Stravinsky ballet, first
          presented by the Ballets Russes in 1910). The image of Luthien riding on Huan's back also immediately
          recalls the unique motif of 'Tsarevna na Syerom Volkye' ('the Princess on a Grey Wolf'). The question is:
          where did Tolkien experience these Russian stories? Might he have seen Bilibin's famous illustrated
          compendium of Russian fairy tales? If he did, it could certainly have fired his imagination.
          Alexei
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Larry Swain
          On the now dead question of edition/translation, I might add that the Oxford Classics series has an edition that I ve used parts of successfully in teaching.
          Message 4 of 20 , May 8, 2007
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            On the now dead question of edition/translation, I might add that the Oxford Classics series has an edition that I've used parts of successfully in teaching. I don't know how "accurate" it is as far as a translation goes though.

            Larry Swain

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          • Patrick H. Wynne
            ... Tolkien s Hungarian-style language is actually called _Mágol_. In the earlier of the two texts on this language it is called _Mágo_ and more closely
            Message 5 of 20 , May 11, 2007
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              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, alexeik@... wrote:

              > ... [Tolkien] did see Hungarian as intriguing (he has a Hungarian
              > character and introduces a number of Hungarian names in _The
              > Notion Club Papers_) and actually created a language inspired by
              > Hungarian, which he called Magu, although he doesn't seem to have
              > given it a story context (Carl and Pat would know a great deal more
              > about it than I do).

              Tolkien's Hungarian-style language is actually called _Mágol_. In the
              earlier of the two texts on this language it is called _Mágo_ and more
              closely resembles Adunaic than Hungarian; this same text also says
              that "Old Mágo" was the language of the children of Húrin.

              In the later text, the language is called _Mágol_ and seems clearly
              modeled after Hungarian in phonology and grammatical structure,
              while retaining a strong Elvish influence as well -- it reminds me of
              something that might have been spoken by a lost tribe of Avari who
              had taken up residence outside Budapest for a few millennia. This
              later text makes no internal mention of the speakers of the language,
              though some time after (perhaps _long_ after) its completion, Tolkien
              jotted the words "Ork, Orkish" at the top of the typescript, then struck
              this out and wrote "No".

              I should also note that Mágo(l) is probably the language misreported
              by Lisa Star as "Mork" in her online "List of Tolkien's Languages":

              http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/9902/langlst.html

              Star opines that "Mork" is "probably related to Old English", which
              is also not true. I presume that the name "Mork" is a mistaken con-
              flation in Star's mind of "Mágol" and "Ork".

              -- Patrick H. Wynne
            • Carl F. Hostetter
              Since accented characters in Pat s post came through mangled (at least in my mail), I ll note for any other to whom this happened that: Mágol = Magol with
              Message 6 of 20 , May 11, 2007
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                Since accented characters in Pat's post came through mangled (at
                least in my mail), I'll note for any other to whom this happened that:

                Mágol = Magol with accented (i.e., long) a
                Mágo = Mago with accented (long) a

                And, of course,

                Húrin = Hurin with accented (long) u

                (For the technical among us: Pat's message is UTF-8 encoded, but the
                Yahoo/ the mailer has defaulted to ISO-8859-1.)

                Carl
              • alexeik@aol.com
                ... From: Aelfwine@elvish.org To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 11 May 2007 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Kalevala Since accented characters in Pat s
                Message 7 of 20 , May 11, 2007
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                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Aelfwine@...
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Fri, 11 May 2007 9:21 AM
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: Kalevala


                  Since accented characters in Pat's post came through mangled (at
                  least in my mail), I'll note for any other to whom this happened that
                  <<
                  For some reason Pat's message never came up in my e-mail, so I'm glad you posted this (it enabled me to read the full message on the group website).
                  I should add that all I know about Mago/Magol is what I can remember hearing from Pat at a long-ago Mythcon -- so I was hoping he'd chime in.
                  :-)

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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • David Bratman
                  ... Is this unpublished? I couldn t find this language, under any of the suggested spellings, in the NCP index. DB
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 11, 2007
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                    At 12:24 PM 5/11/2007 +0000, Patrick H. Wynne wrote:

                    >Tolkien's Hungarian-style language is actually called _Mágol_. In the
                    >earlier of the two texts on this language it is called _Mágo_ and more
                    >closely resembles Adunaic than Hungarian; this same text also says
                    >that "Old Mágo" was the language of the children of Húrin.

                    Is this unpublished? I couldn't find this language, under any of the
                    suggested spellings, in the NCP index.

                    DB
                  • Carl F. Hostetter
                    ... Yes, it s unpublished. For now. Carl
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 11, 2007
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                      On May 11, 2007, at 3:20 PM, David Bratman wrote:

                      > At 12:24 PM 5/11/2007 +0000, Patrick H. Wynne wrote:
                      >
                      > >Tolkien's Hungarian-style language is actually called _Mágol_. In the
                      > >earlier of the two texts on this language it is called _Mágo_ and
                      > more
                      > >closely resembles Adunaic than Hungarian; this same text also says
                      > >that "Old Mágo" was the language of the children of Húrin.
                      >
                      > Is this unpublished? I couldn't find this language, under any of the
                      > suggested spellings, in the NCP index.

                      Yes, it's unpublished. For now.

                      Carl
                    • lynnmaudlin
                      ... Or obsession with a young Robin Williams...
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 11, 2007
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                        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick H. Wynne" <pwynne@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I should also note that Mágo(l) is probably the language misreported
                        > by Lisa Star as "Mork" in her online "List of Tolkien's Languages":
                        >
                        > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/9902/langlst.html
                        >
                        > Star opines that "Mork" is "probably related to Old English", which
                        > is also not true. I presume that the name "Mork" is a mistaken con-
                        > flation in Star's mind of "Mágol" and "Ork".


                        Or obsession with a young Robin Williams...
                      • David Emerson
                        ... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! emerdavid ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 12, 2007
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                          >> Star opines that "Mork" is "probably related to Old English", which
                          >> is also not true. I presume that the name "Mork" is a mistaken con-
                          >> flation in Star's mind of "Mágol" and "Ork".
                          >
                          >
                          >Or obsession with a young Robin Williams...

                          HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

                          emerdavid

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