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Spoiler in CoH review?

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  • Merlin DeTardo
    ... and hardly any for those who haven t. Hmm. I m sorry, but taking another look at Appleyard s review, I realize that, almost certainly without himself
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 10, 2007
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      >>---"Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@...> wrote:
      >>There are no spoilers for anyone who's read _The Silmarillion_,
      and hardly any for those who haven't.


      Hmm. I'm sorry, but taking another look at Appleyard's review, I
      realize that, almost certainly without himself realizing it, he has
      included what might be a _Children of Hurin_ spoiler for even --or
      for only?-- the most sophisticated _History of Middle-earth_
      connoisseur. Or so I would guess, not being so qualified. (If I
      were, I would have noticed sooner.)

      It concerns not the plot but its presentation. If you wish to
      remain utterly unspoiled where such questions are concerned, skip
      Appleyard's review for now, because the one direct quotation he
      includes from CoH might not be as innocuous as it seems.

      On the other hand, if you really want to know, read Appleyard's
      review in light of last month's CoH speculation in the following
      discussion thread from another site--

      http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=90396&start=90

      --specifically the comments there by contributors
      nicknamed 'Voronwe_the_Faithful', 'scirocco', and 'dna'.

      I'm sorry if this note sounds arch; it's tricky rounding up the cats
      I might have unbagged. As one partipant in that discussion
      wrote, "This is worse than the LOTR casting rumors!"

      -Merlin
    • William Cloud Hicklin
      ... _The Silmarillion_, ... Appleyard s review, I ... realizing it, he has ... spoiler for even --or ... Middle-earth_ ... That s a pretty eenie-weenie
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 12, 2007
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        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin
        DeTardo" <emptyD@...> wrote:
        >
        > >>---"Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@> wrote:
        > >>There are no spoilers for anyone who's read
        _The Silmarillion_,
        > and hardly any for those who haven't.
        >
        >
        > Hmm. I'm sorry, but taking another look at
        Appleyard's review, I
        > realize that, almost certainly without himself
        realizing it, he has
        > included what might be a _Children of Hurin_
        spoiler for even --or
        > for only?-- the most sophisticated _History of
        Middle-earth_
        > connoisseur.

        That's a pretty eenie-weenie spoiler. At most it
        might disappoint those who were hoping for
        something that was never there.
      • Merlin DeTardo
        ... those who were hoping for something that was never there. Ah, but something that was never where? Appleyard s quote, and his description of it, seem to
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 12, 2007
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          >---"William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...> wrote:
          >That's a pretty eenie-weenie spoiler. At most it might disappoint
          those who were hoping for something that was never there.


          Ah, but something that was never where? Appleyard's quote, and his
          description of it, seem to reveal that _The Children of Hurin_ uses
          one possible source over another for a particular passage. It's
          pretty eenie-weenie to you and me, but the _History of Middle-earth_
          devotees in the discussion to which I linked, commenting on, say, the
          possible appearance of "valiant Fingon" versus "prevaricate
          Fingolfin" (to quote one of the discussants) might find more meaning
          in Appleyard's citation than we do. The spoiler advisory was
          directed at anyone here who might have a similar interest.

          Given that most of the material in CoH has probably been published
          before, there may not be much to spoil except the nature of the
          selection. Well, only five more days of idle speculation.

          -Merlin
        • Jeremy Edmonds
          ... If you are really itching, check your local bookstores. Evidently there are a large number of stores that already have their copies up for sale. A number
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 12, 2007
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            --- Merlin DeTardo <emptyD@...> wrote:

            > Given that most of the material in CoH has probably been published
            > before, there may not be much to spoil except the nature of the
            > selection. Well, only five more days of idle speculation.
            >

            If you are really itching, check your local bookstores. Evidently there are a
            large number of stores that already have their copies up for sale. A number of
            the UK trade copies have the first section bound upside down, so something to
            be aware of.

            In Holland, Rene already has some copies of the Houghton Mifflin edition
            available: http://www.tolkienshop.com

            Hope this helps,

            Jeremy

            --
            Rown's Books
            * Tolkien, SF&F and more *
            872 Loyalton Drive
            Campbell, CA 95008 USA
            (408) 396-6996
            www.rowns.com
          • Oberhelman, D
            That will be a detail for collectors to note. Now I will be scouring bookstores here to see if there are any such variants. HM has been sending copies out to
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 12, 2007
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              That will be a detail for collectors to note.

              Now I will be scouring bookstores here to see if there are any such "variants."

              HM has been sending copies out to libraries in the US from what I've heard. My library, however, has not yet received it.

              **************************************
              David D. Oberhelman
              Associate Professor
              Humanities-Social Sciences Division
              Oklahoma State University Library
              Stillwater, OK 74078
              Phone: (405) 744-9773 Fax: (405) 744-7579
              Email: d.oberhelman@...

              -----Original Message-----
              From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Jeremy Edmonds
              Sent: Thu 4/12/2007 1:17 PM
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Re: the eenie-weenie spoiler went up the dragon's snout.


              If you are really itching, check your local bookstores. Evidently there are a
              large number of stores that already have their copies up for sale. A number of
              the UK trade copies have the first section bound upside down, so something to
              be aware of.

              In Holland, Rene already has some copies of the Houghton Mifflin edition
              available: http://www.tolkienshop.com

              Hope this helps,

              Jeremy







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • lakowskir
              I found Drout s discussion of the limitations of modernism very interesting. (He seems to be following Tom Shippey s lead here.) He also has some extremely
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 12, 2007
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                I found Drout's discussion of the limitations of modernism very
                interesting. (He seems to be following Tom Shippey's lead here.)

                He also has some extremely interesting comments on modernist literature
                in a "Course" he gave entitled "Of Sorcerers and Men: Tolkien and the
                Roots of Modern Fantasy Literature" available through the Barnes and
                Noble Portable Professor series (7 CDs 14 Lectures and a 70 Page Booklet.

                http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?
                z=y&EAN=9780760785232&itm=1

                About half the "course" is devoted to Tolkien and the other half to other
                19th and 20th "fantasy" writers.

                I'm also rereading Drout's edition of Beowulf and the Critics. A wonderful
                edition in many ways but I find the level of commentary a bit overwhelming
                in places. But perhaps it's better to have too much than too little.

                Romuald I Lakowski

                --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@...> wrote:
                >
                > Bryan Appleyard's review can be read here:
                >
                > http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/book
                > s/article1613657.ece
                >
                > There are no spoilers for anyone who's read _The Silmarillion_, and
                > hardly any for those who haven't. Appleyard likes CoH for being more
                > adult than _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_ (which he
                > apparently never finished) but this is less a review of CoH than a
                > general commentary on Tolkien's writing. Verlyn Flieger and Michael
                > Drout are among the handful who have replied to Appleyard on the
                > Times site; Drout expands on his response at his blog:
                >
                > http://wormtalk.blogspot.com/2007/04/children-of-hrin-or-tolkien-
                > scholars.html
                >
                > Drout, taking up a point he's raised before (as at The Gathering last
                > July), echoes Tom Shippey in examining how Tolkien's work does and
                > doesn't fit the requirements of various modernist theories. N.b.
                > Drout does spoil the presumably well-known ending of Turin's story
                > about two-thirds through his post.
                >
                > -Merlin
                >
              • William Cloud Hicklin
                I don t think it s ever been any secret that CoH is in all essentials the Narn i Chin Hurin- augmented from other sources, perhaps, but the Narn (both as found
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 12, 2007
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                  I don't think it's ever been any secret that
                  CoH is in all essentials the Narn i Chin Hurin-
                  augmented from other sources, perhaps, but the
                  Narn (both as found in UT/HME XI and in
                  unpublished material) is always the primary
                  source.

                  NOW, as to Bryan Appleyard- isn't it curious
                  where he got a text? The publishers have not
                  sent out advance review copies. Could
                  Appleyard be bluffing- basing his vague
                  commentary on Unfinished Tales?


                  --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin
                  DeTardo" <emptyD@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >---"William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@>
                  wrote:
                  > >That's a pretty eenie-weenie spoiler. At
                  most
                  it might disappoint
                  > those who were hoping for something that was
                  never there.
                  >
                  >
                  > Ah, but something that was never where?
                  Appleyard's quote, and his
                  > description of it, seem to reveal that _The
                  Children of Hurin_ uses
                  > one possible source over another for a
                  particular passage. It's
                  > pretty eenie-weenie to you and me, but the
                  _History of Middle-earth_
                  > devotees in the discussion to which I linked,
                  commenting on, say, the
                  > possible appearance of "valiant Fingon"
                  versus
                  "prevaricate
                  > Fingolfin" (to quote one of the discussants)
                  might find more meaning
                  > in Appleyard's citation than we do. The
                  spoiler advisory was
                  > directed at anyone here who might have a
                  similar interest.
                  >
                  > Given that most of the material in CoH has
                  probably been published
                  > before, there may not be much to spoil except
                  the nature of the
                  > selection. Well, only five more days of idle
                  speculation.
                  >
                  > -Merlin
                  >
                • David Emerson
                  ... Aw, darn. I was hoping for a spoiler along the lines of Darth Melkor turning out to be Turin Skywalker s real father. emerdavid
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 12, 2007
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                    >...possible appearance of "valiant Fingon" versus "prevaricate
                    >Fingolfin" ...

                    Aw, darn. I was hoping for a spoiler along the lines of Darth Melkor turning out to be Turin Skywalker's real father.

                    emerdavid

                    ________________________________________
                    PeoplePC Online
                    A better way to Internet
                    http://www.peoplepc.com
                  • Merlin DeTardo
                    ... Melkor turning out to be Turin Skywalker s real father. Well, Appleyard does reference Jabba the Hut in his review.
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 12, 2007
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                      >>---David Emerson <emerdavid@...> wrote:
                      >>Aw, darn. I was hoping for a spoiler along the lines of Darth
                      Melkor turning out to be Turin Skywalker's real father.


                      Well, Appleyard does reference Jabba the Hut in his review.
                    • Mattie G.
                      Recorded Books, Inc. also produced the Michael Drout lecture series under the title Rings, Swords and Monsters: Exploring Fantasy Literature. Libraries
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 13, 2007
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                        Recorded Books, Inc. also produced the Michael Drout lecture series under the title "Rings, Swords and Monsters: Exploring Fantasy Literature." Libraries might have a copy of this one.

                        Mattie G.


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                      • William Cloud Hicklin
                        This one by Jeremy Marshall (The Ring of Words). Much better informed than Appleyard s, without being a puff piece:
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 14, 2007
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                          This one by Jeremy Marshall (The Ring of
                          Words). Much better informed than Appleyard's,
                          without being a puff piece:

                          http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/
                          arts_and_entertainment/books/fiction/
                          article1649664.ece
                        • David Bratman
                          The ritual posthumous Tolkien is boring genuflection at the start is annoying, but once you get into it it s pleasant to see that Marshall knows what he s
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 14, 2007
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                            The ritual "posthumous Tolkien is boring" genuflection at the start is annoying, but once you get into it it's pleasant to see that Marshall knows
                            what he's talking about (no surprise). I'd rather thought this was mostly a repackaging, and that there was no major cache of new material, and Marshall confirms this.


                            -----Original Message-----
                            >From: William Cloud Hicklin <solicitr@...>
                            >Sent: Apr 14, 2007 2:14 PM
                            >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                            >Subject: [mythsoc] Another Children of Hurin review
                            >
                            >This one by Jeremy Marshall (The Ring of
                            >Words). Much better informed than Appleyard's,
                            >without being a puff piece:
                            >
                            >http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/
                            >arts_and_entertainment/books/fiction/
                            >article1649664.ece
                          • Jeremy Edmonds
                            Another review at the TimesOnline.com site: this one falls in the category of brutally against Tolkien. Sentences with a gnomic brevity derived from the
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 15, 2007
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                              Another review at the TimesOnline.com site: this one falls in the category of
                              brutally against Tolkien.

                              "Sentences with a gnomic brevity derived from the sagas are overwhelmed by
                              pages of self-indulgent feebleness."

                              http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/fiction/article1639071.ece


                              Jeremy
                              --- David Bratman <dbratman@...> wrote:

                              > The ritual "posthumous Tolkien is boring" genuflection at the start is
                              > annoying, but once you get into it it's pleasant to see that Marshall knows
                              > what he's talking about (no surprise). I'd rather thought this was mostly a
                              > repackaging, and that there was no major cache of new material, and Marshall
                              > confirms this.
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > >From: William Cloud Hicklin <solicitr@...>
                              > >Sent: Apr 14, 2007 2:14 PM
                              > >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                              > >Subject: [mythsoc] Another Children of Hurin review
                              > >
                              > >This one by Jeremy Marshall (The Ring of
                              > >Words). Much better informed than Appleyard's,
                              > >without being a puff piece:
                              > >
                              > >http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/
                              > >arts_and_entertainment/books/fiction/
                              > >article1649664.ece
                              >
                              >
                            • William Cloud Hicklin
                              A much more balanced piece in The Independent: http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/books/reviews/ article2450332.ece ... this one falls in the category of ...
                              Message 14 of 27 , Apr 16, 2007
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                                A much more balanced piece in The Independent:

                                http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/books/reviews/
                                article2450332.ece


                                --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Jeremy Edmonds
                                <jeremy@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Another review at the TimesOnline.com site:
                                this one falls in the category of
                                > brutally against Tolkien.
                                >
                                > "Sentences with a gnomic brevity derived from
                                the sagas are overwhelmed by
                                > pages of self-indulgent feebleness."
                                >
                                > http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/
                                arts_and_entertainment/books/fiction/
                                article1639071.ece
                                >

                                One wonders why on earth this person was tabbed
                                to review it. Vide Lewis's comments regarding
                                reviewing and detective stories. In this case,
                                it reads like a review of /Amazing Grace/
                                written by a Klansman.
                              • Carl F. Hostetter
                                I received my copies of both the US (Houghton Mifflin) and UK (HarperCollins) trade editions of _Children of Húrin_ today, and wanted to let interested
                                Message 15 of 27 , Apr 18, 2007
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                                  I received my copies of both the US (Houghton Mifflin) and UK
                                  (HarperCollins) trade editions of _Children of Húrin_ today, and
                                  wanted to let interested readers know that while identical in
                                  contents, the UK edition is larger in page size (also in plate size,
                                  for the illustrations), in better boards, on better paper, and with
                                  better (sewn) binding. For my money, in terms of attractiveness and
                                  durability, it's well worth the additional cost to get the UK edition
                                  instead of the US one.

                                  FWIW.

                                  Carl
                                • Jason Fisher
                                  Wow. Color me surprised. Thanks for letting us know, Carl. I figured the exact opposite would be true. I m looking at my copy of the extended edition of Smith
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Apr 18, 2007
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                                    Wow. Color me surprised. Thanks for letting us know, Carl.

                                    I figured the exact opposite would be true. I'm looking at my copy of the extended edition of Smith of Wootton Major as I write this � printed as it is on what appears to be heavy, recycled newspaper; in fact, I think it might have been used by a homeless person to keep the rain off before the text was printed on it. And the binding is clogged together with the kind of glue that ... well ... let's just say, the Rohirrim wouldn't be too happy about it.

                                    Jason

                                    ----- Carl F. Hostetter <Aelfwine@...> ----

                                    I received my copies of both the US (Houghton Mifflin) and UK
                                    (HarperCollins) trade editions of _Children of H�rin_ today, and
                                    wanted to let interested readers know that while identical in
                                    contents, the UK edition is larger in page size (also in plate size,
                                    for the illustrations) , in better boards, on better paper, and with
                                    better (sewn) binding. For my money, in terms of attractiveness and
                                    durability, it's well worth the additional cost to get the UK edition
                                    instead of the US one.

                                    FWIW.

                                    Carl

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Jeremy Edmonds
                                    Hi all, I am interested in getting some back issues of the Tolkien fanzine Tyalië Tyelelliéva, run by Lisa Star but currently inactive. Her webpage has an
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Apr 18, 2007
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                                      Hi all,

                                      I am interested in getting some back issues of the Tolkien fanzine Tyalië
                                      Tyelelliéva, run by Lisa Star but currently inactive. Her webpage has an email
                                      contact address on it, which does not bounce but she has not responded to any
                                      inquiries that I am aware of in over a year (though she has updated the website
                                      since then.) Does anyone have a better contact method for her that they could
                                      share, or pass on to her that I would like to contact her?

                                      http://www.geocities.com/athens/parthenon/9902/

                                      Thanks,
                                      Jeremy
                                    • Oberhelman, D
                                      I just received the HarperCollins Deluxe _Children of Hurin_ today and really like its construction. The paper is heavy, the binding firm, the helm design on
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Apr 23, 2007
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                                        I just received the HarperCollins Deluxe _Children of Hurin_ today and really like its construction. The paper is heavy, the binding firm, the helm design on the box is very sharp. The color in the plates is more vibrant and the details are crisper than the Houghton Mifflin trade edition (Lee's paintings look rather dull and muddy to me there). It costs a little more than the UK trade edition Carl mentioned last, but is well worth the price if you want a very nice collectible edition. It also is the same height as the other HarperCollins Deluxes/LOTR 50th.


                                        David Oberhelman


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Elena Rossi
                                        ... Are you sure of that? I received my copy today (I had pre-ordered it long ago but for a misunderstanding the bookshop set aside my copy and didn t send it
                                        Message 19 of 27 , May 19, 2007
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                                          --- "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...> wrote:

                                          > I received my copies of both the US (Houghton
                                          > Mifflin) and UK
                                          > (HarperCollins) trade editions of _Children of
                                          > Húrin_ today, and
                                          > wanted to let interested readers know that while
                                          > identical in
                                          > contents, the UK edition is larger in page size
                                          > (also in plate size,
                                          > for the illustrations), in better boards, on better
                                          > paper, and with
                                          > better (sewn) binding.

                                          Are you sure of that?
                                          I received my copy today (I had pre-ordered it long
                                          ago but for a misunderstanding the bookshop set aside
                                          my copy and didn't send it for some weeks), it's a
                                          HarperCollins but it's not sewn, pages are just glued
                                          to the spine, which I find very very disappointing!
                                          :-(
                                          Is it possible that there are several batches produced
                                          by HarperCollins, some sewn and some glued? My copy
                                          should be a first edition as far as I can tell, there
                                          is written "Published by HarperCollins Publishers
                                          2007" and then, on the line below, "I".

                                          Oh, well, it's not that important, but I hate such
                                          "false paperbacks" that fall into pieces after a few
                                          readings!

                                          Regards
                                          Elena





                                          ____________________________________________________________________________________Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                                          Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
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                                        • hisilome
                                          ... Well, it may not be _that_ important, but I haven t received my copy yet, and I can tell you that like you I ll certainly be disappointed if the pages are
                                          Message 20 of 27 , May 20, 2007
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                                            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Elena Rossi <rossiele@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- "Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > I received my copies of both the US (Houghton
                                            > > Mifflin) and UK
                                            > > (HarperCollins) trade editions of _Children of
                                            > > Húrin_ today, and
                                            > > wanted to let interested readers know that while
                                            > > identical in
                                            > > contents, the UK edition is larger in page size
                                            > > (also in plate size,
                                            > > for the illustrations), in better boards, on better
                                            > > paper, and with
                                            > > better (sewn) binding.
                                            >
                                            > Are you sure of that?
                                            > I received my copy today (I had pre-ordered it long
                                            > ago but for a misunderstanding the bookshop set aside
                                            > my copy and didn't send it for some weeks), it's a
                                            > HarperCollins but it's not sewn, pages are just glued
                                            > to the spine, which I find very very disappointing!
                                            > :-(
                                            > Is it possible that there are several batches produced
                                            > by HarperCollins, some sewn and some glued? My copy
                                            > should be a first edition as far as I can tell, there
                                            > is written "Published by HarperCollins Publishers
                                            > 2007" and then, on the line below, "I".
                                            >
                                            > Oh, well, it's not that important, but I hate such
                                            > "false paperbacks" that fall into pieces after a few
                                            > readings!

                                            Well, it may not be _that_ important, but I haven't received my copy
                                            yet, and I can tell you that like you I'll certainly be disappointed
                                            if the pages are just glued together! This seems to happen a lot
                                            these days, though, take the Houghton Mifflin (hardcover) editions
                                            of "The History of Middle-earth" series, for example--but I'd have
                                            expected a bit more from HarperCollins. In particular, I don't see
                                            how they can sell both "sewn" and "glued" copies for the same price.
                                            (I've already written to both Amazon and HarperCollins to inquire
                                            about this, maybe you want to do that, too? Costs nothing...)

                                            On that note, I just received my copy of the first volume of John D.
                                            Rateliff's "The History of the Hobbit", and guess what: also a "false
                                            paperback", as you call it. Now I'm not sure in this case if all the
                                            hardcover copies have glued spines, or if there are properly sewn
                                            copies out there as well? Maybe others on this list who also ordered
                                            this book can satisfy my curiosity...

                                            Greetings,

                                            David
                                          • Jason Fisher
                                            ... This is interesting because when I got my U.S. Houghton-Mifflin copy from Amazon – I too had it preordered – I noticed it was a *second* printing. This
                                            Message 21 of 27 , May 20, 2007
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                                              > --- Elena wote: ---
                                              > Are you sure of that? ...
                                              > it's a HarperCollins but it's not sewn,
                                              > pages are just glued to the spine ...
                                              > Is it possible that there are several
                                              > batches produced by HarperCollins,
                                              > some sewn and some glued?

                                              This is interesting because when I got my U.S. Houghton-Mifflin copy from Amazon � I too had it preordered � I noticed it was a *second* printing. This was very annoying � until I went to the bookstore and compared it to the first printing. Strangely, the second (and perhaps all subsequent?) U.S. printing was of better quality (better paper, better binding � though still not as good as Carl and David have made the first British printing sound) than the *first*! So, this sounds like the opposite situation with HarperCollins, whose first sounds better than its subsequent printings. You say you think yours is a first printing, Elena, and it may be, but I've found it's sometimes harder to tell with some publishers. Houghton-Mifflin's printings are more clearly identified.

                                              So, second U.S. printing though it is, it's the one I'm keeping. For now, anyway. Whims of the publishing industry, I guess.

                                              Jason

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Elena Rossi
                                              ... I too expected much better! Actually, I expected something like the edition of the Hobbit illustrated by Alan Lee... It s very similar as layout (both
                                              Message 22 of 27 , May 20, 2007
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                                                --- hisilome <david.vdpeet@...> wrote:

                                                >>
                                                > Well, it may not be _that_ important, but I haven't
                                                > received my copy
                                                > yet, and I can tell you that like you I'll certainly
                                                > be disappointed
                                                > if the pages are just glued together! This seems to
                                                > happen a lot
                                                > these days, though, take the Houghton Mifflin
                                                > (hardcover) editions
                                                > of "The History of Middle-earth" series, for
                                                > example--but I'd have
                                                > expected a bit more from HarperCollins.

                                                I too expected much better!
                                                Actually, I expected something like the edition of
                                                "the Hobbit" illustrated by Alan Lee... It's very
                                                similar as layout (both have pencil drawings at the
                                                beginning of each chapter, and some full-page coloutr
                                                plates.
                                                But The Hobbit is printed on a beautiful glossy paper
                                                (with sewn binding, even for the paperback!) that
                                                makes every single pencil stroke stand out even if
                                                the drawings have very delicate shades of grey... In
                                                COH on the contrary, such detailed reproduction is not
                                                possible because (it's only just a normal paper, not
                                                especially bad quality but simply not suitable for
                                                such illustration), and details disappear in a sort of
                                                grey cloud that makes a very poor service to Alan
                                                Lee's art :-(.
                                                And if you try to look closer, you just see the dots
                                                of the halftone screen :-(

                                                I thought that with COH they would do the same as for
                                                The Hobbit, but obviously the temptation to save a few
                                                cents on each copy by making a cheap edition (cheap
                                                for them, not for the readers!) was too strong.


                                                > In
                                                > particular, I don't see
                                                > how they can sell both "sewn" and "glued" copies for
                                                > the same price.
                                                > (I've already written to both Amazon and
                                                > HarperCollins to inquire
                                                > about this, maybe you want to do that, too? Costs
                                                > nothing...)

                                                Oh, well, I think now it's too late...Now I have it
                                                and I'll keep it...And hope that by the time it start
                                                losing pages, there will be another, better edition...
                                                Also, I didn't buy it from Amazon but from Forbidden
                                                Planet (London), because Alan Lee would be there to
                                                sign copies on 19th April and it was possible to order
                                                signed copies even from the internet... And my copy
                                                was signed (I'm a fan of Alan Lee), so it's
                                                necessarily one that was already in the library on
                                                that date (which together with the 'I' printed near
                                                the copyright, makes me think it's a first edition...I
                                                really don't care about first editions, but I only
                                                wonder whether the stitched/sewn may depend from the
                                                edition).

                                                >
                                                > On that note, I just received my copy of the first
                                                > volume of John D.
                                                > Rateliff's "The History of the Hobbit", and guess
                                                > what: also a "false
                                                > paperback", as you call it.

                                                I haven't bought it yet, but I'm rather disappointed
                                                to hear that :-(
                                                (I meant a "false hardback", but probably the concept
                                                is the same).
                                                Another sad example of this is the extended edition of
                                                Somith of Wootton Major edited by Verlyn Flieger...
                                                The book is magnificent; there is the reproduction of
                                                all the first edition (with illustrations by Pauline
                                                Baynes), then notes and commentaries, then the
                                                original draft by Tolkien (pictures of every single
                                                page, with transcription on the opposite page)...All
                                                this ruined by a binding where pages (made of rather
                                                rigid paper) seem to fly away from the first time you
                                                open the book.


                                                > Now I'm not sure in this
                                                > case if all the
                                                > hardcover copies have glued spines, or if there are
                                                > properly sewn
                                                > copies out there as well? Maybe others on this list
                                                > who also ordered
                                                > this book can satisfy my curiosity...

                                                Well, I've never heard that a book was issued in two
                                                such different forms at the same time by the same
                                                publisher, that's why I asked Carl if he was sure that
                                                the COH he owns is really sewn (sometimes the
                                                difference is obvious, but sometimes pages are packed
                                                very strictly and it's not easy to see the
                                                difference!); or maybe he has the Deluxe edition? (I
                                                think the Deluxe edition is sewn, or what Deluxe
                                                edition is it?)

                                                Regards
                                                Elena



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                                              • hisilome
                                                ... Well, I don t own or have seen the Lee Hobbit , but it sounds like a nice edition! This is exactly what bothers me, there are enough examples out there of
                                                Message 23 of 27 , May 21, 2007
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                                                  --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, Elena Rossi <rossiele@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > --- hisilome <david.vdpeet@...> wrote:
                                                  > >>
                                                  > > Well, it may not be _that_ important, but I haven't
                                                  > > received my copy
                                                  > > yet, and I can tell you that like you I'll certainly
                                                  > > be disappointed
                                                  > > if the pages are just glued together! <snip>

                                                  > I too expected much better!
                                                  > Actually, I expected something like the edition of
                                                  > "the Hobbit" illustrated by Alan Lee... It's very
                                                  > similar as layout (both have pencil drawings at the
                                                  > beginning of each chapter, and some full-page coloutr
                                                  > plates.
                                                  > But The Hobbit is printed on a beautiful glossy paper
                                                  > (with sewn binding, even for the paperback!) that
                                                  > makes every single pencil stroke stand out even if
                                                  > the drawings have very delicate shades of grey...

                                                  Well, I don't own or have seen the "Lee Hobbit", but it sounds like a
                                                  nice edition! This is exactly what bothers me, there are enough
                                                  examples out there of how it can be done, incl. also the first and
                                                  second edition of Anderson's "Annotated Hobbit" [my copies published
                                                  by Unwin Hyman / HarperCollins, respectively--truth be told, in terms
                                                  of paper quality and reproductions, the second edition is superior to
                                                  the first, which is considerably larger in page size and comes with a
                                                  very different dust jacket, but has only B&W / two-color
                                                  illustrations which are often a bit small for my taste].
                                                  Or there is the second edition (haven't seen the first) of "The Road
                                                  Goes Ever On" [George Allen & Unwin, 1978], or the latest works by
                                                  Hammond and Scull, the "LotR Reader's Companion" [here the
                                                  HarperCollins / Houghton Mifflin editions are practically identical,
                                                  at least mine] and the "Tolkien Companion and Guide", or even the
                                                  paperback edition [Houghton Mifflin] of the earlier "J.R.R. Tolkien:
                                                  Artist and Illustrator". All printed on decent to very good paper,
                                                  all sewn and with good quality reproductions of pictures and drawings
                                                  (if present).
                                                  Compare that to later printings of the History of Middle-earth by
                                                  Houghton Mifflin which are usually shoddily glued together and
                                                  consistently leave out color frontispieces, which were originally a
                                                  feature in several volumes (others had no frontispiece [e.g. BoLT 2],
                                                  and yet others had a B&W frontispiece [e.g. BoLT 1])--now
                                                  HarperCollins doesn't issue those single-volume copies anymore (well,
                                                  only as paperbacks, that is).
                                                  Houghton Mifflin used to have the frontispieces in their first
                                                  editions (with the exception of Volume XII, I believe), but now
                                                  they've decided to save money instead. The thing is, they don't tell
                                                  you that if you order the books on their site, or at Amazon, for that
                                                  matter. (On-line) second-hand book dealers often seem to give you a
                                                  lot more details about individual copies, and I've usually found them
                                                  to be quite reliable.

                                                  I'm rambling on and on. If you're still with me, I'd just like to
                                                  encourage everybody that whenever receiving a copy that's not what
                                                  you had a right to expect, or it's just sloppily manufactured, I
                                                  think it doesn't hurt to send the publishers / dealers some feedback.
                                                  Maybe it will make a bit of a difference.

                                                  > In COH on the contrary, such detailed reproduction is not
                                                  > possible because (it's only just a normal paper, not
                                                  > especially bad quality but simply not suitable for
                                                  > such illustration), and details disappear in a sort of
                                                  > grey cloud that makes a very poor service to Alan
                                                  > Lee's art :-(.
                                                  > And if you try to look closer, you just see the dots
                                                  > of the halftone screen :-(
                                                  >
                                                  > I thought that with COH they would do the same as for
                                                  > The Hobbit, but obviously the temptation to save a few
                                                  > cents on each copy by making a cheap edition (cheap
                                                  > for them, not for the readers!) was too strong.

                                                  Exactly! Either they make it cheap (and that also means selling it
                                                  cheap[er]), or they do it right, and then they can charge a decent
                                                  price.

                                                  <snip>

                                                  > Well, I've never heard that a book was issued in two
                                                  > such different forms at the same time by the same
                                                  > publisher, that's why I asked Carl if he was sure that
                                                  > the COH he owns is really sewn (sometimes the
                                                  > difference is obvious, but sometimes pages are packed
                                                  > very strictly and it's not easy to see the
                                                  > difference!); or maybe he has the Deluxe edition? (I
                                                  > think the Deluxe edition is sewn, or what Deluxe
                                                  > edition is it?)
                                                  > Regards
                                                  > Elena

                                                  Carl was explicitly referring to the trade editions, and I think
                                                  those are the "normal" hardcover editions, not the deluxe ones. So I
                                                  think if your copy is really just glued together, then HarperCollins
                                                  did exactly that: issue the book in two different forms at the same
                                                  time.

                                                  It's true that it can sometimes be a little bit tricky to see if a
                                                  copy is sewn or not, but a close examination usually leaves no doubt.

                                                  Amazon actually replied to my inquiry to let me know that I'll be
                                                  receiving a hardcover edition of CoH with sewn binding--so I'm
                                                  keeping my fingers crossed. No word on "The History of the Hobbit",
                                                  though...

                                                  Anyway, I'm sorry I've been reeling way off topic throughout the
                                                  entire post, and of course the content is more important than the
                                                  package. It just adds to the enjoyment when both match each other in
                                                  quality!

                                                  Greetings,

                                                  David
                                                • William Cloud Hicklin
                                                  FWIW, my trade edition of CoH (obtained through Amazon) is definitely sewn.
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , May 21, 2007
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                                                    FWIW, my trade edition of CoH (obtained through
                                                    Amazon) is definitely sewn.
                                                  • Elena Rossi
                                                    ... Yes, it is... Even the paperback is very solidly bound, with glossy paper and stitched binding...The only difference with the hardback is that the cover
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , May 21, 2007
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                                                      --- hisilome <david.vdpeet@...> wrote:

                                                      > Well, I don't own or have seen the "Lee Hobbit", but
                                                      > it sounds like a
                                                      > nice edition!
                                                      Yes, it is... Even the "paperback" is very solidly
                                                      bound, with glossy paper and stitched binding...The
                                                      only difference with the hardback is that the cover
                                                      (of course) is not rigid.

                                                      >This is exactly what bothers me, there
                                                      > are enough
                                                      > examples out there of how it can be done, incl. also
                                                      > the first and
                                                      > second edition of Anderson's "Annotated Hobbit" [my
                                                      > copies published
                                                      > by Unwin Hyman / HarperCollins, respectively--truth
                                                      > be told, in terms
                                                      > of paper quality and reproductions, the second
                                                      > edition is superior to
                                                      > the first, which is considerably larger in page size
                                                      > and comes with a
                                                      > very different dust jacket, but has only B&W /
                                                      > two-color
                                                      > illustrations which are often a bit small for my
                                                      > taste].
                                                      > Or there is the second edition (haven't seen the
                                                      > first) of "The Road
                                                      > Goes Ever On" [George Allen & Unwin, 1978], or the
                                                      > latest works by
                                                      > Hammond and Scull, the "LotR Reader's Companion"
                                                      > [here the
                                                      > HarperCollins / Houghton Mifflin editions are
                                                      > practically identical,
                                                      > at least mine] and the "Tolkien Companion and
                                                      > Guide", or even the
                                                      > paperback edition [Houghton Mifflin] of the earlier
                                                      > "J.R.R. Tolkien:
                                                      > Artist and Illustrator". All printed on decent to
                                                      > very good paper,
                                                      > all sewn and with good quality reproductions of
                                                      > pictures and drawings
                                                      > (if present).

                                                      That's true! Books by Hammond and Scull have all
                                                      excellent editions, very solid and that won't fall
                                                      apart even after years of use (that's important, as
                                                      being works of consultation, they should resist to a
                                                      "heavy use").

                                                      > Compare that to later printings of the History of
                                                      > Middle-earth by
                                                      > Houghton Mifflin which are usually shoddily glued
                                                      > together and
                                                      > consistently leave out color frontispieces, which
                                                      > were originally a
                                                      > feature in several volumes (others had no
                                                      > frontispiece [e.g. BoLT 2],
                                                      > and yet others had a B&W frontispiece [e.g. BoLT
                                                      > 1])--now
                                                      > HarperCollins doesn't issue those single-volume
                                                      > copies anymore (well,
                                                      > only as paperbacks, that is).

                                                      Yes, I only have them paperbacks :-(
                                                      There are hardbacks made by packing three books
                                                      together, but frankly they seem to me too bulky to be
                                                      practical... Single volumes would be better.

                                                      > Houghton Mifflin used to have the frontispieces in
                                                      > their first
                                                      > editions (with the exception of Volume XII, I
                                                      > believe), but now
                                                      > they've decided to save money instead. The thing is,
                                                      > they don't tell
                                                      > you that if you order the books on their site, or at
                                                      > Amazon, for that
                                                      > matter.

                                                      Well, I'm in Italy and I can't even see such books in
                                                      normal bookshops, so I often have to order them
                                                      "blindly" on the internet.
                                                      Sometimes they are better than I expected (as The
                                                      Hobbit by Alan Lee or books by W. Hammond and
                                                      C.Scull), sometimes they are worse :-(

                                                      > (On-line) second-hand book dealers often
                                                      > seem to give you a
                                                      > lot more details about individual copies, and I've
                                                      > usually found them
                                                      > to be quite reliable.

                                                      I had never thought of that, I'll keep it in mind for
                                                      next time...


                                                      > I'm rambling on and on. If you're still with me, I'd
                                                      > just like to
                                                      > encourage everybody that whenever receiving a copy
                                                      > that's not what
                                                      > you had a right to expect, or it's just sloppily
                                                      > manufactured, I
                                                      > think it doesn't hurt to send the publishers /
                                                      > dealers some feedback.
                                                      > Maybe it will make a bit of a difference.
                                                      >

                                                      Well, a couple of years ago i bought from Amazon a
                                                      "hardback" edition of The Silmarillion, to substitute
                                                      my old Allen&Unwin paperback edition that was starting
                                                      to lose pages (after many readings). I was not
                                                      interested in a "deluxe" or illustrated copy, I just
                                                      wanted a good hardback with sewn binding...Actually
                                                      what I received was a _glued_ hardback :-(; and not
                                                      only that; the quality of the edition was appalling,
                                                      especially when confronted with my old paperback
                                                      edition!! Margins were practically nonexistent, while
                                                      the font used was much smaller than the one of my old
                                                      copy... OK, I still have a good sight :-), but the
                                                      comparison with the old paperback was shameful. And
                                                      the new edition was not even particularly cheap!!
                                                      I wrote a complaint mail to HarperCollins, telling
                                                      them what I thought of their poor edition of
                                                      Silmarillion (I remember I told the the only thing
                                                      that was good was the dustjacket)- not that I expected
                                                      anything, but I think that if people don't start to
                                                      complain, publishers maybe think that we don't even
                                                      notice.
                                                      Actually, very surprisingly, they answered and asked
                                                      my address, apologizing for my disappointing and
                                                      offering a replecement...And they sent me for free an
                                                      illustrated (by Ted Nasmith) copy, which was sewn and
                                                      was a good edition. But I'm afraid they missed my
                                                      point, which was not so much my _personal_
                                                      disappointment over that book, but the fact that
                                                      publishers should try to make _good_ books, not things
                                                      that look cheap in every detail except the price.


                                                      > Exactly! Either they make it cheap (and that also
                                                      > means selling it
                                                      > cheap[er]), or they do it right, and then they can
                                                      > charge a decent
                                                      > price.

                                                      That's right, a cover price of 18.99 pounds is in
                                                      exaggeration IMO for a glued binding.


                                                      >
                                                      > Carl was explicitly referring to the trade editions,
                                                      > and I think
                                                      > those are the "normal" hardcover editions, not the
                                                      > deluxe ones. So I
                                                      > think if your copy is really just glued together,
                                                      > then HarperCollins
                                                      > did exactly that: issue the book in two different
                                                      > forms at the same
                                                      > time.

                                                      >:-(
                                                      In this case I think I'll consider re-buying it...

                                                      >
                                                      > It's true that it can sometimes be a little bit
                                                      > tricky to see if a
                                                      > copy is sewn or not, but a close examination usually
                                                      > leaves no doubt.
                                                      >
                                                      > Amazon actually replied to my inquiry to let me know
                                                      > that I'll be
                                                      > receiving a hardcover edition of CoH with sewn
                                                      > binding--so I'm
                                                      > keeping my fingers crossed. No word on "The History
                                                      > of the Hobbit",
                                                      > though...

                                                      Well, let me know what type is your CoH when you get
                                                      it...
                                                      Although I think that if I buy it again, I'll probably
                                                      choose the Deluxe edition to be sure (and anyway it's
                                                      very discounted at the moment)...
                                                      I'm sorry that the new one won't be signed by Alan
                                                      Lee, but if I have to choose I prefer a better
                                                      binding.

                                                      >
                                                      > Anyway, I'm sorry I've been reeling way off topic
                                                      > throughout the
                                                      > entire post, and of course the content is more
                                                      > important than the
                                                      > package. It just adds to the enjoyment when both
                                                      > match each other in
                                                      > quality!

                                                      Well, of course the content is more important! But
                                                      when the "package" is going to self-destroy, it also
                                                      diminishes the enjoyment of the content...Besides
                                                      that, if there were no alternatives (i.e. CoH was only
                                                      available in glued binding) I would resign myself as
                                                      "either this or nothing", but as it seems there are
                                                      different editions, I hope to get one that is going to
                                                      last...

                                                      Regards
                                                      Elena


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