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Re: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien and Julian of Norwich

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  • Larry Swain
    I m in a rush and had meant to respond to this thread earlier, but....Julian s statement is not unique in patristic and medieval thought. More to the point
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 24, 2007
      I'm in a rush and had meant to respond to this thread earlier,
      but....Julian's statement is not unique in patristic and medieval
      thought. More to the point though, Iluvatar's statement to Ulmo
      mentioned by the original poster has more in common with
      Augustine's City of God and other places where he speaks of even
      those who intend things for evil will have those things turned for
      our good. This is in part based on Romans 8:28 in the New
      Testament. That is, I doubt very much that Julian is a direct
      source or inspiration for the passage in question.

      On the question of whether Tolkien had read Julian of Norwich, I'd
      have to say that yes he did, though I have no proof for it. But
      for someone who worked on the texts that he did and produced a
      Middle English glossary for the 14th century to have overlooked a
      well known and widely available text boggles my mind. That isn't
      to say that he was intimate with the text or studied/taught it
      frequently, but just to say that given his field and his work, the
      probability is high that he had at least read Julian of Norwich.

      I'll have to return to the question of the influence of the Ancrene
      Wisse and the Katherine Group on Julian......

      Larry Swain

      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...>
      > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien and Julian of Norwich
      > Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 19:20:37 -0000
      > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Without pretending to be comprehensive, I can at least offer
      > some
      > > negative responses. Based on their indices, there are no
      > references
      > > to Julian of Norwich in the _J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia_ or
      > the
      > > collections _Tolkien the Medievalist_, _Tolkien and the
      > Invention of
      > > Myth_ or _Tolkien's Modern Middle Ages_. .....
      > However, I find it difficult to believe that Tolkien would not
      > have read Julian (or any other Middle English author)at some
      > time: and although I'm not very conversant with the Ancrene
      > Wisse nor with the related St Catherine group of manuscripts, I
      > wouldn't be surprised if they influenced Julian to a certain
      > extent; some recent feminist scholars have postulated a female
      > textual tradition in medieval England, copying and circulating
      > these feminine texts among convents and anchoresses.
      > On the other hand, Julian naturally could not have influenced
      > the AW, and the East Anglian dialect of Middle English was not
      > Tolkien's particular speciality. Googling Julian, the Cloud of
      > Unknowing, and Margery Kempe, I can't find any edition by a
      > scholar associated with Tolkien.
      > Does anyone know whether Julian was an influence on Cardinal
      > Newman's theology? I'm inclined to doubt it, since the
      > impression I get of Oratory Catholicism is that it tended to
      > regard Mertonish mysticism with some suspicion - certainly Lewis
      > the "Newmanite Anglican" did.
      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
      > Yahoo! Groups Links


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