Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Tolkien and Julian of Norwich

Expand Messages
  • William Cloud Hicklin
    ... some ... references ... the ... Invention of ... However, I find it difficult to believe that Tolkien would not have read Julian (or any other Middle
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 24, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Without pretending to be comprehensive, I can at least offer
      some
      > negative responses. Based on their indices, there are no
      references
      > to Julian of Norwich in the _J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia_ or
      the
      > collections _Tolkien the Medievalist_, _Tolkien and the
      Invention of
      > Myth_ or _Tolkien's Modern Middle Ages_. .....

      However, I find it difficult to believe that Tolkien would not
      have read Julian (or any other Middle English author)at some
      time: and although I'm not very conversant with the Ancrene
      Wisse nor with the related St Catherine group of manuscripts, I
      wouldn't be surprised if they influenced Julian to a certain
      extent; some recent feminist scholars have postulated a female
      textual tradition in medieval England, copying and circulating
      these feminine texts among convents and anchoresses.

      On the other hand, Julian naturally could not have influenced
      the AW, and the East Anglian dialect of Middle English was not
      Tolkien's particular speciality. Googling Julian, the Cloud of
      Unknowing, and Margery Kempe, I can't find any edition by a
      scholar associated with Tolkien.

      Does anyone know whether Julian was an influence on Cardinal
      Newman's theology? I'm inclined to doubt it, since the
      impression I get of Oratory Catholicism is that it tended to
      regard Mertonish mysticism with some suspicion - certainly Lewis
      the "Newmanite Anglican" did.
    • Larry Swain
      I m in a rush and had meant to respond to this thread earlier, but....Julian s statement is not unique in patristic and medieval thought. More to the point
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 24, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        I'm in a rush and had meant to respond to this thread earlier,
        but....Julian's statement is not unique in patristic and medieval
        thought. More to the point though, Iluvatar's statement to Ulmo
        mentioned by the original poster has more in common with
        Augustine's City of God and other places where he speaks of even
        those who intend things for evil will have those things turned for
        our good. This is in part based on Romans 8:28 in the New
        Testament. That is, I doubt very much that Julian is a direct
        source or inspiration for the passage in question.

        On the question of whether Tolkien had read Julian of Norwich, I'd
        have to say that yes he did, though I have no proof for it. But
        for someone who worked on the texts that he did and produced a
        Middle English glossary for the 14th century to have overlooked a
        well known and widely available text boggles my mind. That isn't
        to say that he was intimate with the text or studied/taught it
        frequently, but just to say that given his field and his work, the
        probability is high that he had at least read Julian of Norwich.

        I'll have to return to the question of the influence of the Ancrene
        Wisse and the Katherine Group on Julian......

        Larry Swain


        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...>
        > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien and Julian of Norwich
        > Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 19:20:37 -0000
        >
        >
        > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Without pretending to be comprehensive, I can at least offer
        > some
        > > negative responses. Based on their indices, there are no
        > references
        > > to Julian of Norwich in the _J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia_ or
        > the
        > > collections _Tolkien the Medievalist_, _Tolkien and the
        > Invention of
        > > Myth_ or _Tolkien's Modern Middle Ages_. .....
        >
        > However, I find it difficult to believe that Tolkien would not
        > have read Julian (or any other Middle English author)at some
        > time: and although I'm not very conversant with the Ancrene
        > Wisse nor with the related St Catherine group of manuscripts, I
        > wouldn't be surprised if they influenced Julian to a certain
        > extent; some recent feminist scholars have postulated a female
        > textual tradition in medieval England, copying and circulating
        > these feminine texts among convents and anchoresses.
        >
        > On the other hand, Julian naturally could not have influenced
        > the AW, and the East Anglian dialect of Middle English was not
        > Tolkien's particular speciality. Googling Julian, the Cloud of
        > Unknowing, and Margery Kempe, I can't find any edition by a
        > scholar associated with Tolkien.
        >
        > Does anyone know whether Julian was an influence on Cardinal
        > Newman's theology? I'm inclined to doubt it, since the
        > impression I get of Oratory Catholicism is that it tended to
        > regard Mertonish mysticism with some suspicion - certainly Lewis
        > the "Newmanite Anglican" did.
        >
        >
        >
        > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >

        >


        --
        _______________________________________________
        Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way:
        Download Opera 9 at http://www.opera.com

        Powered by Outblaze
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.