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Re: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien and Julian of Norwich

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  • David Bratman
    ... Tending to doubt Tolkien would have been discussing his mythology with his grad students under such circumstances. - David Bratman
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 23, 2007
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      At 04:01 AM 1/24/2007 +0000, Merlin DeTardo wrote:

      >In a long
      >entry on the "Oxford English School", they note that in 1946 Tolkien
      >supervised John Lawlor's thesis on Julian. Is Lawlor still alive?
      >He could say whether Tolkien ever mentioned the "Ainulindalë" in
      >connection with Julian.

      Tending to doubt Tolkien would have been discussing his mythology with his
      grad students under such circumstances.

      - David Bratman
    • Merlin DeTardo
      You re probably right, and yet on the same page (742) of the _Reader s Guide_, Scull and Hammond quote another of Tolkien s students, Robert Burchfield, from
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 23, 2007
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        You're probably right, and yet on the same page (742) of the
        _Reader's Guide_, Scull and Hammond quote another of Tolkien's
        students, Robert Burchfield, from "My Hero: Robert Burchfield on
        J.R.R. Tolkien":

        "I saw Tollers (as he was known) at weekly intervals in the academic
        years 1951-2 and 1952-3, sometimes in Merton College, sometimes at
        his home in Holywell. He puffed at his pipe while I told him of my
        work. He made many acute observations. I followed them all up. He
        beamed when I made some discoveries. Now and then he mentioned the
        hobbits, but he didn't press them on me, spotting that my interest
        lay in the scraped-out o's and double consonants of the _Ormulum_
        rather than in dwarves... Orcs, and Mr Bilbo Baggins."


        >---David Bratman <dbratman@...> wrote:
        > At 04:01 AM 1/24/2007 +0000, Merlin DeTardo wrote:
        >>In a long entry on the "Oxford English School", they note that in
        1946 Tolkien supervised John Lawlor's thesis on Julian. Is Lawlor
        still alive? He could say whether Tolkien ever mentioned
        the "Ainulindalë" in connection with Julian.

        > Tending to doubt Tolkien would have been discussing his mythology
        with his grad students under such circumstances.
        >-David Bratman
      • William Cloud Hicklin
        ... some ... references ... the ... Invention of ... However, I find it difficult to believe that Tolkien would not have read Julian (or any other Middle
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 24, 2007
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          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Without pretending to be comprehensive, I can at least offer
          some
          > negative responses. Based on their indices, there are no
          references
          > to Julian of Norwich in the _J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia_ or
          the
          > collections _Tolkien the Medievalist_, _Tolkien and the
          Invention of
          > Myth_ or _Tolkien's Modern Middle Ages_. .....

          However, I find it difficult to believe that Tolkien would not
          have read Julian (or any other Middle English author)at some
          time: and although I'm not very conversant with the Ancrene
          Wisse nor with the related St Catherine group of manuscripts, I
          wouldn't be surprised if they influenced Julian to a certain
          extent; some recent feminist scholars have postulated a female
          textual tradition in medieval England, copying and circulating
          these feminine texts among convents and anchoresses.

          On the other hand, Julian naturally could not have influenced
          the AW, and the East Anglian dialect of Middle English was not
          Tolkien's particular speciality. Googling Julian, the Cloud of
          Unknowing, and Margery Kempe, I can't find any edition by a
          scholar associated with Tolkien.

          Does anyone know whether Julian was an influence on Cardinal
          Newman's theology? I'm inclined to doubt it, since the
          impression I get of Oratory Catholicism is that it tended to
          regard Mertonish mysticism with some suspicion - certainly Lewis
          the "Newmanite Anglican" did.
        • Larry Swain
          I m in a rush and had meant to respond to this thread earlier, but....Julian s statement is not unique in patristic and medieval thought. More to the point
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 24, 2007
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            I'm in a rush and had meant to respond to this thread earlier,
            but....Julian's statement is not unique in patristic and medieval
            thought. More to the point though, Iluvatar's statement to Ulmo
            mentioned by the original poster has more in common with
            Augustine's City of God and other places where he speaks of even
            those who intend things for evil will have those things turned for
            our good. This is in part based on Romans 8:28 in the New
            Testament. That is, I doubt very much that Julian is a direct
            source or inspiration for the passage in question.

            On the question of whether Tolkien had read Julian of Norwich, I'd
            have to say that yes he did, though I have no proof for it. But
            for someone who worked on the texts that he did and produced a
            Middle English glossary for the 14th century to have overlooked a
            well known and widely available text boggles my mind. That isn't
            to say that he was intimate with the text or studied/taught it
            frequently, but just to say that given his field and his work, the
            probability is high that he had at least read Julian of Norwich.

            I'll have to return to the question of the influence of the Ancrene
            Wisse and the Katherine Group on Julian......

            Larry Swain


            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...>
            > To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [mythsoc] Re: Tolkien and Julian of Norwich
            > Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 19:20:37 -0000
            >
            >
            > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Merlin DeTardo" <emptyD@...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Without pretending to be comprehensive, I can at least offer
            > some
            > > negative responses. Based on their indices, there are no
            > references
            > > to Julian of Norwich in the _J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia_ or
            > the
            > > collections _Tolkien the Medievalist_, _Tolkien and the
            > Invention of
            > > Myth_ or _Tolkien's Modern Middle Ages_. .....
            >
            > However, I find it difficult to believe that Tolkien would not
            > have read Julian (or any other Middle English author)at some
            > time: and although I'm not very conversant with the Ancrene
            > Wisse nor with the related St Catherine group of manuscripts, I
            > wouldn't be surprised if they influenced Julian to a certain
            > extent; some recent feminist scholars have postulated a female
            > textual tradition in medieval England, copying and circulating
            > these feminine texts among convents and anchoresses.
            >
            > On the other hand, Julian naturally could not have influenced
            > the AW, and the East Anglian dialect of Middle English was not
            > Tolkien's particular speciality. Googling Julian, the Cloud of
            > Unknowing, and Margery Kempe, I can't find any edition by a
            > scholar associated with Tolkien.
            >
            > Does anyone know whether Julian was an influence on Cardinal
            > Newman's theology? I'm inclined to doubt it, since the
            > impression I get of Oratory Catholicism is that it tended to
            > regard Mertonish mysticism with some suspicion - certainly Lewis
            > the "Newmanite Anglican" did.
            >
            >
            >
            > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >

            >


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