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Re: [mythsoc] The LR Second Edition

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  • John D Rateliff
    Since Tolkien sold the manuscripts to Marquette in the 1950s, material he wrote a decade later isn t included among their holdings. The source you shd consult
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 5, 2007
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      Since Tolkien sold the manuscripts to Marquette in the 1950s,
      material he wrote a decade later isn't included among their holdings.
      The source you shd consult is Wayne's Descriptive Bibliography
      [1993], which notes all the changes between each edition.
      --JDR

      current reading: THE MOTHER OF PEGASUS

      On Jan 5, 2007, at 10:48 AM, William Cloud Hicklin wrote:
      > Does anyone who has seen the Marquette papers have an inkling
      > as to whether, when JRRT was revising the FR text for the 2d
      > Ed, he approached the Bombadil chapters carefully, or in a
      > cursory fashion? I'm asking because I'm not sure how much
      > weight to attach to the retention of Tom's statements which
      > clearly reflect the old astronomical myth rather than the
      > newer round-world version, and thus whether by implication
      > Tolkien had decided to keep the old story by 1965.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • William Cloud Hicklin
      ... holdings. ... Bibliography ... In fact, CRT has over time (1987-98) shipped much if not all of his manuscript material relating to Hobbit, LR and Farmer
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 5, 2007
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        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Since Tolkien sold the manuscripts to Marquette in the 1950s,
        > material he wrote a decade later isn't included among their
        holdings.
        > The source you shd consult is Wayne's Descriptive
        Bibliography
        > [1993], which notes all the changes between each edition.
        > --JDR

        In fact, CRT has over time (1987-98) shipped much if not all of
        his manuscript material relating to Hobbit, LR and Farmer Giles
        to Marquette. I don't think that legally includes the post-sale
        revisions, but CRT apparently wants all the papers to reside
        together.

        I have all the textual changes in Wayne's LR-RC, but that's not
        exactly what I was asking. I was wondering if in Tolkien's own
        mark-ups there is an indication how carefully he reviewed those
        chapters, not whether he revised them (mostly he didn't). After
        all, I'm evaluating a passage he *didn't* change.


        >
        > current reading: THE MOTHER OF PEGASUS
        >
        > On Jan 5, 2007, at 10:48 AM, William Cloud Hicklin wrote:
        > > Does anyone who has seen the Marquette papers have an inkling
        > > as to whether, when JRRT was revising the FR text for the 2d
        > > Ed, he approached the Bombadil chapters carefully, or in a
        > > cursory fashion? I'm asking because I'm not sure how much
        > > weight to attach to the retention of Tom's statements which
        > > clearly reflect the old astronomical myth rather than the
        > > newer round-world version, and thus whether by implication
        > > Tolkien had decided to keep the old story by 1965.
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Wayne G. Hammond
        ... To my knowledge, there are no papers concerning the second edition LR at Marquette. Christopher still has, at least, some of his father s check copies ,
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 6, 2007
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          William Cloud Hicklin wrote:

          >In fact, CRT has over time (1987-98) shipped much if not all of
          >his manuscript material relating to Hobbit, LR and Farmer Giles
          >to Marquette. I don't think that legally includes the post-sale
          >revisions, but CRT apparently wants all the papers to reside
          >together.
          >
          >I have all the textual changes in Wayne's LR-RC, but that's not
          >exactly what I was asking. I was wondering if in Tolkien's own
          >mark-ups there is an indication how carefully he reviewed those
          >chapters, not whether he revised them (mostly he didn't). After
          >all, I'm evaluating a passage he *didn't* change.

          To my knowledge, there are no papers concerning the second edition LR at
          Marquette. Christopher still has, at least, some of his father's "check
          copies", i.e. copies of his works in which he marked corrections, while a
          few others have found their way into the secondhand market. But since
          Tolkien made no changes in the Bombadil episode for either the Ballantine
          or Allen & Unwin second editions (see, as John suggests, the Descriptive
          Bibliography of 1993 rather than the Reader's Companion for a fuller
          accounting of LR textual changes), one would suppose that he felt that it
          was fine as it was, and that no workings would be found in Christopher's
          possession.

          Wayne




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • William Cloud Hicklin
          Thaks, Wayne. A qustion on a trivial matter: what is the correct name for that edition? On my 1965 H-M (Quackenbush covers), the title page reads Second
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 6, 2007
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            Thaks, Wayne.

            A qustion on a trivial matter: what is the "correct" name for
            that edition?

            On my "1965" H-M (Quackenbush covers), the title page reads
            "Second Edition," the dustjacket reads "Revised Edition," and
            the front flap reads "Second Edition, Revised!"

            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne G.
            Hammond" <Wayne.G.Hammond@...> wrote:
            >
            > William Cloud Hicklin wrote:
            >
            > >In fact, CRT has over time (1987-98) shipped much if not
            all of
            > >his manuscript material relating to Hobbit, LR and Farmer
            Giles
            > >to Marquette. I don't think that legally includes the post-
            sale
            > >revisions, but CRT apparently wants all the papers to reside
            > >together.
            > >
            > >I have all the textual changes in Wayne's LR-RC, but that's
            not
            > >exactly what I was asking. I was wondering if in Tolkien's
            own
            > >mark-ups there is an indication how carefully he reviewed
            those
            > >chapters, not whether he revised them (mostly he didn't).
            After
            > >all, I'm evaluating a passage he *didn't* change.
            >
            > To my knowledge, there are no papers concerning the second
            edition LR at
            > Marquette. Christopher still has, at least, some of his
            father's "check
            > copies", i.e. copies of his works in which he marked
            corrections, while a
            > few others have found their way into the secondhand market.
            But since
            > Tolkien made no changes in the Bombadil episode for either
            the Ballantine
            > or Allen & Unwin second editions (see, as John suggests, the
            Descriptive
            > Bibliography of 1993 rather than the Reader's Companion for
            a fuller
            > accounting of LR textual changes), one would suppose that he
            felt that it
            > was fine as it was, and that no workings would be found in
            Christopher's
            > possession.
            >
            > Wayne
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • William Cloud Hicklin
            ... As well as thanks. :)
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 6, 2007
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              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "William Cloud
              Hicklin" <solicitr@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Thaks, Wayne.

              As well as thanks. :)
            • Wayne G. Hammond
              ... There s no one correct name for it. In the Descriptive Bibliography I call it the second Houghton Mifflin edition , as distinct from the second Allen &
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 7, 2007
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                William Cloud Hicklin wrote:

                >A question on a trivial matter: what is the "correct" name for
                >that edition?
                >
                >On my "1965" H-M (Quackenbush covers), the title page reads
                >"Second Edition," the dustjacket reads "Revised Edition," and
                >the front flap reads "Second Edition, Revised!"

                There's no one "correct" name for it. In the Descriptive Bibliography I
                call it the "second Houghton Mifflin edition", as distinct from the "second
                Allen & Unwin edition", the Ballantine "revised edition", etc., and because
                "second edition" in the tortuous publication history of The Lord of the
                Rings could mean not only any one of these, but also the Ace Books edition
                (a new typesetting except for the Appendices) and even the Allen & Unwin
                Fellowship from the (reset) "second printing" onward.

                The trick in all this is to distinguish "edition" in bibliographical terms
                (a wholly or substantially new typesetting) from "edition" in publishers'
                terms (any kind of marketing construct) and from "edition" in the textual
                sense, as when we refer to the "first edition text" and "second edition
                text" of LR.

                Wayne




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • William Cloud Hicklin
                ... edition ... Okay-- but then (just to keep things confusing)- even in this third (authorial) definition, which I think is the operative one, can we
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 7, 2007
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                  --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne G.
                  Hammond" <Wayne.G.Hammond@...> wrote:

                  > and from "edition" in the textual
                  > sense, as when we refer to the "first edition text" and "second
                  edition
                  > text" of LR.
                  >


                  Okay-- but then (just to keep things confusing)- even in this
                  third (authorial) definition, which I think is the operative one,
                  can we meaningfully define the ur-Second Edition as "what Tolkien
                  intended in 1965"? Or do the many errors that persisted, and
                  CRT's periodic "consistency" emendations, obviate such a
                  definition? And is it sensible to refer to the first Anderson as
                  the "3rd Edition" and your 50th as the "4th Edition", in the same
                  way that one hears of the "4th Edition" Hobbit- texts attempting
                  to restore a theoretical pre-existing state, rather than create a
                  new state?
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