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Re: [mythsoc] Re: For JDR: Query on Hobbit geography

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  • Walter Padgett
    The Arkenstone as the Silmaril of Maidros? That s a new one on me... That would indeed make Bilbo a hero of doubled sacrifice, compared to his favorite
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 1, 2007
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      The Arkenstone as the Silmaril of Maidros? That's a new one on me... That
      would indeed make Bilbo a hero of doubled sacrifice, compared to his
      favorite cousin. Frodo. Interesting, but impossible, I think. Unless it
      can be a matter of considering as ultimate the heirlooms of the First Age as
      utterly passed away, their significance lost and forgotten with the
      cataclysmic change of the world. That light with which the fate of the
      world is bound up, the light of the two trees, certainly can not be the
      light of the Arkenstone as it appears in the Third Age, can it? What was
      the fate of that stone, anyway? Was it buried with Thorin, only to be
      restored to the bowels of the Earth? What was the experience of those
      dwarves who basked in its radiance? Speculation . . .

      wp


      On 1/1/07, William Cloud Hicklin <solicitr@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com <mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com>, John D
      > Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > In fact, I argue throughout MR. BAGGINS that Bilbo's story is
      > taking
      > > place in an undefined part of the same lands as the earlier
      > > Silmarillion texts, with a few specific identifications: most
      > > notably Taur-na-Fuin with Mirkwood and Dor-na-Fauglith (the
      > later
      > > Anfauglith) with the Withered Heath. So far as I know, there's
      > no
      > > stated connection between the Ered Lindon and the Misty
      > Mountains,
      > > but then I wouldn't expect there to be: at the time Tolkien
      > wrote THE
      > > HOBBIT there was no hint that Moria was a dwarven homeland.
      > > Hope this helps.
      > > --JDR
      >
      > It does help indeed. I'm getting the impression of a progressive
      > eastward shift of the geography. I had wondered if in the earlier
      > stages of writing The Hobbit if the Misty Mountains represented
      > the eastern Ered Wethrin, which would imply the Great River =
      > Sirion and Mirkwood = Taur-nu-fuin.
      >
      > But by the Fall of Numenor, as the Hobbit was being prepared for
      > publication, the Iron Forest/Mirkwood/Dol Guldur have shifted to
      > "the midmost parts," far from the sea; and the mountains in the
      > Wilderland maps, especially the draft, bear a striking
      > resemblance to the Ered Luin in Tolkien's sketch-map between the
      > sources of Gelion and Ascar: in fact, I wonder about an
      > identification of the "Old Road" of TH with the "Old Dwarf-Road"
      > passing under the shoulder of Mt Dolmed, and the later Ford of
      > Bruinen with the ford of Rathloriel. There is something logical
      > about the "edge of the Wild" corresponding with the limit of
      > Eldarin settlement.
      >
      > In TH First Ed. Thorin refers to his Longbeards as being one of
      > two clans of Dwarves, which pretty clearly means Nogrod and
      > Belegost, and in 1937 or so Nogrod is also named Khazad-dum and
      > glossed as "the Dwarf-mine"; in an emendation to the Quenta
      > Silmarillion text Dwarfmine is changed to Dwarrowdelf, and a
      > marginal note moves Nogrod, names and all, to the Misty
      > mountains. In short, in the earliest stage of the Lord of the
      > Rings Moria was ancient Nogrod; and I have a feeling that its
      > location was not at first conceived as being different.
      >
      > Wild-hare speculation: was there ever a passing identification
      > of the Arkenstone with the Silmaril (eorclanstane) of Maidros?
      > The descriptions are not dissimilar; and the Arkenstone rather
      > singularly appears to be a light-source in "Not At Home."
      >
      > > current reading: PALESTINE: PEACE NOT APARTHEID by Jimmy Carter
      > [2006]
      > >
      > > n5tggt-
      > > On Jan 1, 2007, at 5:37 AM, William Cloud Hicklin wrote:
      > > > Or for anyone else who might know:
      > > >
      > > > Is there any hint in the Hobbit papers relating its geography
      > > > to that of the First Age? Given the passing identification,
      > > > very early in the LR, of Moria with ancient Nogrod, I am
      > > > wondering if there was ever a stage in which the Misty
      > > > Mountains were identified with the Ered Lindon.
      > > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >


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    • John D Rateliff
      ... No explicit link, but a host of associations. I ve written an essay laying out the pros and cons ( The Arkenstone as Silmaril ), which ll be appearing in
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 2, 2007
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        On Jan 1, 2007, at 2:23 PM, William Cloud Hicklin wrote:
        > Wild-hare speculation: was there ever a passing identification
        > of the Arkenstone with the Silmaril (eorclanstane) of Maidros?
        > The descriptions are not dissimilar; and the Arkenstone rather
        > singularly appears to be a light-source in "Not At Home."

        No explicit link, but a host of associations. I've written an essay
        laying out the pros and cons ("The Arkenstone as Silmaril"), which'll
        be appearing in Vol. II. There are problems in that here as elsewhere
        Tolkien seems to have wanted to keep all his options open when
        drafting THE HOBBIT, so he often borrows material from the older
        legends without committing himself to whether it's exactly the same
        item, place, or character or merely an analogue (the ideal example is
        The Elvenking). By the time of the published book most but not all of
        these sort out on the analogue side.
        For a good brief account of the Silmaril/Arkenstone question, see
        THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT (revised edition) page 294.
        Jason, I'd be interested in seeing your trimmed paragraph on the
        point if you'd like to post it sometime.

        --JDR

        current reading: The Book of Job; ISLAM: A SHORT HISTORY by Karen
        Armstrong
      • Jason Fisher
        John, ... Ah, excellent. Yet another reason (as if we needed more, heh) to look forward to your book. ... Sure, and speaking of The Annotated Hobbit, the
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 2, 2007
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          John,

          > I've written an essay laying out the pros and cons ("The
          > Arkenstone as Silmaril"), which'll be appearing in Vol. II.

          Ah, excellent. Yet another reason (as if we needed more, heh) to look forward to your book.

          > For a good brief account of the Silmaril/Arkenstone question, see
          > THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT (revised edition) page 294.
          > Jason, I'd be interested in seeing your trimmed paragraph on the
          > point if you'd like to post it sometime.

          Sure, and speaking of The Annotated Hobbit, the citation you just gave was in the cut paragraph from my entry as well. I'll get hold of that first draft at home and post the relevant portion within the next evening or two.

          Jason

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