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Re: [mythsoc] For JDR: Query on Hobbit geography

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  • John D Rateliff
    In fact, I argue throughout MR. BAGGINS that Bilbo s story is taking place in an undefined part of the same lands as the earlier Silmarillion texts, with a few
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 1, 2007
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      In fact, I argue throughout MR. BAGGINS that Bilbo's story is taking
      place in an undefined part of the same lands as the earlier
      Silmarillion texts, with a few specific identifications: most
      notably Taur-na-Fuin with Mirkwood and Dor-na-Fauglith (the later
      Anfauglith) with the Withered Heath. So far as I know, there's no
      stated connection between the Ered Lindon and the Misty Mountains,
      but then I wouldn't expect there to be: at the time Tolkien wrote THE
      HOBBIT there was no hint that Moria was a dwarven homeland.
      Hope this helps.
      --JDR

      current reading: PALESTINE: PEACE NOT APARTHEID by Jimmy Carter [2006]

      n5tggt-
      On Jan 1, 2007, at 5:37 AM, William Cloud Hicklin wrote:
      > Or for anyone else who might know:
      >
      > Is there any hint in the Hobbit papers relating its geography
      > to that of the First Age? Given the passing identification,
      > very early in the LR, of Moria with ancient Nogrod, I am
      > wondering if there was ever a stage in which the Misty
      > Mountains were identified with the Ered Lindon.
      >
    • William Cloud Hicklin
      ... taking ... later ... no ... Mountains, ... wrote THE ... It does help indeed. I m getting the impression of a progressive eastward shift of the geography.
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 1, 2007
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        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > In fact, I argue throughout MR. BAGGINS that Bilbo's story is
        taking
        > place in an undefined part of the same lands as the earlier
        > Silmarillion texts, with a few specific identifications: most
        > notably Taur-na-Fuin with Mirkwood and Dor-na-Fauglith (the
        later
        > Anfauglith) with the Withered Heath. So far as I know, there's
        no
        > stated connection between the Ered Lindon and the Misty
        Mountains,
        > but then I wouldn't expect there to be: at the time Tolkien
        wrote THE
        > HOBBIT there was no hint that Moria was a dwarven homeland.
        > Hope this helps.
        > --JDR


        It does help indeed. I'm getting the impression of a progressive
        eastward shift of the geography. I had wondered if in the earlier
        stages of writing The Hobbit if the Misty Mountains represented
        the eastern Ered Wethrin, which would imply the Great River =
        Sirion and Mirkwood = Taur-nu-fuin.

        But by the Fall of Numenor, as the Hobbit was being prepared for
        publication, the Iron Forest/Mirkwood/Dol Guldur have shifted to
        "the midmost parts," far from the sea; and the mountains in the
        Wilderland maps, especially the draft, bear a striking
        resemblance to the Ered Luin in Tolkien's sketch-map between the
        sources of Gelion and Ascar: in fact, I wonder about an
        identification of the "Old Road" of TH with the "Old Dwarf-Road"
        passing under the shoulder of Mt Dolmed, and the later Ford of
        Bruinen with the ford of Rathloriel. There is something logical
        about the "edge of the Wild" corresponding with the limit of
        Eldarin settlement.

        In TH First Ed. Thorin refers to his Longbeards as being one of
        two clans of Dwarves, which pretty clearly means Nogrod and
        Belegost, and in 1937 or so Nogrod is also named Khazad-dum and
        glossed as "the Dwarf-mine"; in an emendation to the Quenta
        Silmarillion text Dwarfmine is changed to Dwarrowdelf, and a
        marginal note moves Nogrod, names and all, to the Misty
        mountains. In short, in the earliest stage of the Lord of the
        Rings Moria was ancient Nogrod; and I have a feeling that its
        location was not at first conceived as being different.


        Wild-hare speculation: was there ever a passing identification
        of the Arkenstone with the Silmaril (eorclanstane) of Maidros?
        The descriptions are not dissimilar; and the Arkenstone rather
        singularly appears to be a light-source in "Not At Home."


        > current reading: PALESTINE: PEACE NOT APARTHEID by Jimmy Carter
        [2006]
        >
        > n5tggt-
        > On Jan 1, 2007, at 5:37 AM, William Cloud Hicklin wrote:
        > > Or for anyone else who might know:
        > >
        > > Is there any hint in the Hobbit papers relating its geography
        > > to that of the First Age? Given the passing identification,
        > > very early in the LR, of Moria with ancient Nogrod, I am
        > > wondering if there was ever a stage in which the Misty
        > > Mountains were identified with the Ered Lindon.
        > >
        >
      • Walter Padgett
        The Arkenstone as the Silmaril of Maidros? That s a new one on me... That would indeed make Bilbo a hero of doubled sacrifice, compared to his favorite
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 1, 2007
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          The Arkenstone as the Silmaril of Maidros? That's a new one on me... That
          would indeed make Bilbo a hero of doubled sacrifice, compared to his
          favorite cousin. Frodo. Interesting, but impossible, I think. Unless it
          can be a matter of considering as ultimate the heirlooms of the First Age as
          utterly passed away, their significance lost and forgotten with the
          cataclysmic change of the world. That light with which the fate of the
          world is bound up, the light of the two trees, certainly can not be the
          light of the Arkenstone as it appears in the Third Age, can it? What was
          the fate of that stone, anyway? Was it buried with Thorin, only to be
          restored to the bowels of the Earth? What was the experience of those
          dwarves who basked in its radiance? Speculation . . .

          wp


          On 1/1/07, William Cloud Hicklin <solicitr@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com <mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com>, John D
          > Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > In fact, I argue throughout MR. BAGGINS that Bilbo's story is
          > taking
          > > place in an undefined part of the same lands as the earlier
          > > Silmarillion texts, with a few specific identifications: most
          > > notably Taur-na-Fuin with Mirkwood and Dor-na-Fauglith (the
          > later
          > > Anfauglith) with the Withered Heath. So far as I know, there's
          > no
          > > stated connection between the Ered Lindon and the Misty
          > Mountains,
          > > but then I wouldn't expect there to be: at the time Tolkien
          > wrote THE
          > > HOBBIT there was no hint that Moria was a dwarven homeland.
          > > Hope this helps.
          > > --JDR
          >
          > It does help indeed. I'm getting the impression of a progressive
          > eastward shift of the geography. I had wondered if in the earlier
          > stages of writing The Hobbit if the Misty Mountains represented
          > the eastern Ered Wethrin, which would imply the Great River =
          > Sirion and Mirkwood = Taur-nu-fuin.
          >
          > But by the Fall of Numenor, as the Hobbit was being prepared for
          > publication, the Iron Forest/Mirkwood/Dol Guldur have shifted to
          > "the midmost parts," far from the sea; and the mountains in the
          > Wilderland maps, especially the draft, bear a striking
          > resemblance to the Ered Luin in Tolkien's sketch-map between the
          > sources of Gelion and Ascar: in fact, I wonder about an
          > identification of the "Old Road" of TH with the "Old Dwarf-Road"
          > passing under the shoulder of Mt Dolmed, and the later Ford of
          > Bruinen with the ford of Rathloriel. There is something logical
          > about the "edge of the Wild" corresponding with the limit of
          > Eldarin settlement.
          >
          > In TH First Ed. Thorin refers to his Longbeards as being one of
          > two clans of Dwarves, which pretty clearly means Nogrod and
          > Belegost, and in 1937 or so Nogrod is also named Khazad-dum and
          > glossed as "the Dwarf-mine"; in an emendation to the Quenta
          > Silmarillion text Dwarfmine is changed to Dwarrowdelf, and a
          > marginal note moves Nogrod, names and all, to the Misty
          > mountains. In short, in the earliest stage of the Lord of the
          > Rings Moria was ancient Nogrod; and I have a feeling that its
          > location was not at first conceived as being different.
          >
          > Wild-hare speculation: was there ever a passing identification
          > of the Arkenstone with the Silmaril (eorclanstane) of Maidros?
          > The descriptions are not dissimilar; and the Arkenstone rather
          > singularly appears to be a light-source in "Not At Home."
          >
          > > current reading: PALESTINE: PEACE NOT APARTHEID by Jimmy Carter
          > [2006]
          > >
          > > n5tggt-
          > > On Jan 1, 2007, at 5:37 AM, William Cloud Hicklin wrote:
          > > > Or for anyone else who might know:
          > > >
          > > > Is there any hint in the Hobbit papers relating its geography
          > > > to that of the First Age? Given the passing identification,
          > > > very early in the LR, of Moria with ancient Nogrod, I am
          > > > wondering if there was ever a stage in which the Misty
          > > > Mountains were identified with the Ered Lindon.
          > > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John D Rateliff
          ... No explicit link, but a host of associations. I ve written an essay laying out the pros and cons ( The Arkenstone as Silmaril ), which ll be appearing in
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 2, 2007
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            On Jan 1, 2007, at 2:23 PM, William Cloud Hicklin wrote:
            > Wild-hare speculation: was there ever a passing identification
            > of the Arkenstone with the Silmaril (eorclanstane) of Maidros?
            > The descriptions are not dissimilar; and the Arkenstone rather
            > singularly appears to be a light-source in "Not At Home."

            No explicit link, but a host of associations. I've written an essay
            laying out the pros and cons ("The Arkenstone as Silmaril"), which'll
            be appearing in Vol. II. There are problems in that here as elsewhere
            Tolkien seems to have wanted to keep all his options open when
            drafting THE HOBBIT, so he often borrows material from the older
            legends without committing himself to whether it's exactly the same
            item, place, or character or merely an analogue (the ideal example is
            The Elvenking). By the time of the published book most but not all of
            these sort out on the analogue side.
            For a good brief account of the Silmaril/Arkenstone question, see
            THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT (revised edition) page 294.
            Jason, I'd be interested in seeing your trimmed paragraph on the
            point if you'd like to post it sometime.

            --JDR

            current reading: The Book of Job; ISLAM: A SHORT HISTORY by Karen
            Armstrong
          • Jason Fisher
            John, ... Ah, excellent. Yet another reason (as if we needed more, heh) to look forward to your book. ... Sure, and speaking of The Annotated Hobbit, the
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 2, 2007
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              John,

              > I've written an essay laying out the pros and cons ("The
              > Arkenstone as Silmaril"), which'll be appearing in Vol. II.

              Ah, excellent. Yet another reason (as if we needed more, heh) to look forward to your book.

              > For a good brief account of the Silmaril/Arkenstone question, see
              > THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT (revised edition) page 294.
              > Jason, I'd be interested in seeing your trimmed paragraph on the
              > point if you'd like to post it sometime.

              Sure, and speaking of The Annotated Hobbit, the citation you just gave was in the cut paragraph from my entry as well. I'll get hold of that first draft at home and post the relevant portion within the next evening or two.

              Jason

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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