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For JDR: Query on Hobbit geography

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  • William Cloud Hicklin
    Or for anyone else who might know: Is there any hint in the Hobbit papers relating its geography to that of the First Age? Given the passing identification,
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 1, 2007
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      Or for anyone else who might know:

      Is there any hint in the Hobbit papers relating its geography
      to that of the First Age? Given the passing identification,
      very early in the LR, of Moria with ancient Nogrod, I am
      wondering if there was ever a stage in which the Misty
      Mountains were identified with the Ered Lindon.
    • John D Rateliff
      In fact, I argue throughout MR. BAGGINS that Bilbo s story is taking place in an undefined part of the same lands as the earlier Silmarillion texts, with a few
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 1, 2007
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        In fact, I argue throughout MR. BAGGINS that Bilbo's story is taking
        place in an undefined part of the same lands as the earlier
        Silmarillion texts, with a few specific identifications: most
        notably Taur-na-Fuin with Mirkwood and Dor-na-Fauglith (the later
        Anfauglith) with the Withered Heath. So far as I know, there's no
        stated connection between the Ered Lindon and the Misty Mountains,
        but then I wouldn't expect there to be: at the time Tolkien wrote THE
        HOBBIT there was no hint that Moria was a dwarven homeland.
        Hope this helps.
        --JDR

        current reading: PALESTINE: PEACE NOT APARTHEID by Jimmy Carter [2006]

        n5tggt-
        On Jan 1, 2007, at 5:37 AM, William Cloud Hicklin wrote:
        > Or for anyone else who might know:
        >
        > Is there any hint in the Hobbit papers relating its geography
        > to that of the First Age? Given the passing identification,
        > very early in the LR, of Moria with ancient Nogrod, I am
        > wondering if there was ever a stage in which the Misty
        > Mountains were identified with the Ered Lindon.
        >
      • William Cloud Hicklin
        ... taking ... later ... no ... Mountains, ... wrote THE ... It does help indeed. I m getting the impression of a progressive eastward shift of the geography.
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 1, 2007
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          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > In fact, I argue throughout MR. BAGGINS that Bilbo's story is
          taking
          > place in an undefined part of the same lands as the earlier
          > Silmarillion texts, with a few specific identifications: most
          > notably Taur-na-Fuin with Mirkwood and Dor-na-Fauglith (the
          later
          > Anfauglith) with the Withered Heath. So far as I know, there's
          no
          > stated connection between the Ered Lindon and the Misty
          Mountains,
          > but then I wouldn't expect there to be: at the time Tolkien
          wrote THE
          > HOBBIT there was no hint that Moria was a dwarven homeland.
          > Hope this helps.
          > --JDR


          It does help indeed. I'm getting the impression of a progressive
          eastward shift of the geography. I had wondered if in the earlier
          stages of writing The Hobbit if the Misty Mountains represented
          the eastern Ered Wethrin, which would imply the Great River =
          Sirion and Mirkwood = Taur-nu-fuin.

          But by the Fall of Numenor, as the Hobbit was being prepared for
          publication, the Iron Forest/Mirkwood/Dol Guldur have shifted to
          "the midmost parts," far from the sea; and the mountains in the
          Wilderland maps, especially the draft, bear a striking
          resemblance to the Ered Luin in Tolkien's sketch-map between the
          sources of Gelion and Ascar: in fact, I wonder about an
          identification of the "Old Road" of TH with the "Old Dwarf-Road"
          passing under the shoulder of Mt Dolmed, and the later Ford of
          Bruinen with the ford of Rathloriel. There is something logical
          about the "edge of the Wild" corresponding with the limit of
          Eldarin settlement.

          In TH First Ed. Thorin refers to his Longbeards as being one of
          two clans of Dwarves, which pretty clearly means Nogrod and
          Belegost, and in 1937 or so Nogrod is also named Khazad-dum and
          glossed as "the Dwarf-mine"; in an emendation to the Quenta
          Silmarillion text Dwarfmine is changed to Dwarrowdelf, and a
          marginal note moves Nogrod, names and all, to the Misty
          mountains. In short, in the earliest stage of the Lord of the
          Rings Moria was ancient Nogrod; and I have a feeling that its
          location was not at first conceived as being different.


          Wild-hare speculation: was there ever a passing identification
          of the Arkenstone with the Silmaril (eorclanstane) of Maidros?
          The descriptions are not dissimilar; and the Arkenstone rather
          singularly appears to be a light-source in "Not At Home."


          > current reading: PALESTINE: PEACE NOT APARTHEID by Jimmy Carter
          [2006]
          >
          > n5tggt-
          > On Jan 1, 2007, at 5:37 AM, William Cloud Hicklin wrote:
          > > Or for anyone else who might know:
          > >
          > > Is there any hint in the Hobbit papers relating its geography
          > > to that of the First Age? Given the passing identification,
          > > very early in the LR, of Moria with ancient Nogrod, I am
          > > wondering if there was ever a stage in which the Misty
          > > Mountains were identified with the Ered Lindon.
          > >
          >
        • Walter Padgett
          The Arkenstone as the Silmaril of Maidros? That s a new one on me... That would indeed make Bilbo a hero of doubled sacrifice, compared to his favorite
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 1, 2007
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            The Arkenstone as the Silmaril of Maidros? That's a new one on me... That
            would indeed make Bilbo a hero of doubled sacrifice, compared to his
            favorite cousin. Frodo. Interesting, but impossible, I think. Unless it
            can be a matter of considering as ultimate the heirlooms of the First Age as
            utterly passed away, their significance lost and forgotten with the
            cataclysmic change of the world. That light with which the fate of the
            world is bound up, the light of the two trees, certainly can not be the
            light of the Arkenstone as it appears in the Third Age, can it? What was
            the fate of that stone, anyway? Was it buried with Thorin, only to be
            restored to the bowels of the Earth? What was the experience of those
            dwarves who basked in its radiance? Speculation . . .

            wp


            On 1/1/07, William Cloud Hicklin <solicitr@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com <mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com>, John D
            > Rateliff <sacnoth@...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > In fact, I argue throughout MR. BAGGINS that Bilbo's story is
            > taking
            > > place in an undefined part of the same lands as the earlier
            > > Silmarillion texts, with a few specific identifications: most
            > > notably Taur-na-Fuin with Mirkwood and Dor-na-Fauglith (the
            > later
            > > Anfauglith) with the Withered Heath. So far as I know, there's
            > no
            > > stated connection between the Ered Lindon and the Misty
            > Mountains,
            > > but then I wouldn't expect there to be: at the time Tolkien
            > wrote THE
            > > HOBBIT there was no hint that Moria was a dwarven homeland.
            > > Hope this helps.
            > > --JDR
            >
            > It does help indeed. I'm getting the impression of a progressive
            > eastward shift of the geography. I had wondered if in the earlier
            > stages of writing The Hobbit if the Misty Mountains represented
            > the eastern Ered Wethrin, which would imply the Great River =
            > Sirion and Mirkwood = Taur-nu-fuin.
            >
            > But by the Fall of Numenor, as the Hobbit was being prepared for
            > publication, the Iron Forest/Mirkwood/Dol Guldur have shifted to
            > "the midmost parts," far from the sea; and the mountains in the
            > Wilderland maps, especially the draft, bear a striking
            > resemblance to the Ered Luin in Tolkien's sketch-map between the
            > sources of Gelion and Ascar: in fact, I wonder about an
            > identification of the "Old Road" of TH with the "Old Dwarf-Road"
            > passing under the shoulder of Mt Dolmed, and the later Ford of
            > Bruinen with the ford of Rathloriel. There is something logical
            > about the "edge of the Wild" corresponding with the limit of
            > Eldarin settlement.
            >
            > In TH First Ed. Thorin refers to his Longbeards as being one of
            > two clans of Dwarves, which pretty clearly means Nogrod and
            > Belegost, and in 1937 or so Nogrod is also named Khazad-dum and
            > glossed as "the Dwarf-mine"; in an emendation to the Quenta
            > Silmarillion text Dwarfmine is changed to Dwarrowdelf, and a
            > marginal note moves Nogrod, names and all, to the Misty
            > mountains. In short, in the earliest stage of the Lord of the
            > Rings Moria was ancient Nogrod; and I have a feeling that its
            > location was not at first conceived as being different.
            >
            > Wild-hare speculation: was there ever a passing identification
            > of the Arkenstone with the Silmaril (eorclanstane) of Maidros?
            > The descriptions are not dissimilar; and the Arkenstone rather
            > singularly appears to be a light-source in "Not At Home."
            >
            > > current reading: PALESTINE: PEACE NOT APARTHEID by Jimmy Carter
            > [2006]
            > >
            > > n5tggt-
            > > On Jan 1, 2007, at 5:37 AM, William Cloud Hicklin wrote:
            > > > Or for anyone else who might know:
            > > >
            > > > Is there any hint in the Hobbit papers relating its geography
            > > > to that of the First Age? Given the passing identification,
            > > > very early in the LR, of Moria with ancient Nogrod, I am
            > > > wondering if there was ever a stage in which the Misty
            > > > Mountains were identified with the Ered Lindon.
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • John D Rateliff
            ... No explicit link, but a host of associations. I ve written an essay laying out the pros and cons ( The Arkenstone as Silmaril ), which ll be appearing in
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 2, 2007
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              On Jan 1, 2007, at 2:23 PM, William Cloud Hicklin wrote:
              > Wild-hare speculation: was there ever a passing identification
              > of the Arkenstone with the Silmaril (eorclanstane) of Maidros?
              > The descriptions are not dissimilar; and the Arkenstone rather
              > singularly appears to be a light-source in "Not At Home."

              No explicit link, but a host of associations. I've written an essay
              laying out the pros and cons ("The Arkenstone as Silmaril"), which'll
              be appearing in Vol. II. There are problems in that here as elsewhere
              Tolkien seems to have wanted to keep all his options open when
              drafting THE HOBBIT, so he often borrows material from the older
              legends without committing himself to whether it's exactly the same
              item, place, or character or merely an analogue (the ideal example is
              The Elvenking). By the time of the published book most but not all of
              these sort out on the analogue side.
              For a good brief account of the Silmaril/Arkenstone question, see
              THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT (revised edition) page 294.
              Jason, I'd be interested in seeing your trimmed paragraph on the
              point if you'd like to post it sometime.

              --JDR

              current reading: The Book of Job; ISLAM: A SHORT HISTORY by Karen
              Armstrong
            • Jason Fisher
              John, ... Ah, excellent. Yet another reason (as if we needed more, heh) to look forward to your book. ... Sure, and speaking of The Annotated Hobbit, the
              Message 6 of 6 , Jan 2, 2007
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                John,

                > I've written an essay laying out the pros and cons ("The
                > Arkenstone as Silmaril"), which'll be appearing in Vol. II.

                Ah, excellent. Yet another reason (as if we needed more, heh) to look forward to your book.

                > For a good brief account of the Silmaril/Arkenstone question, see
                > THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT (revised edition) page 294.
                > Jason, I'd be interested in seeing your trimmed paragraph on the
                > point if you'd like to post it sometime.

                Sure, and speaking of The Annotated Hobbit, the citation you just gave was in the cut paragraph from my entry as well. I'll get hold of that first draft at home and post the relevant portion within the next evening or two.

                Jason

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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