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Re: [mythsoc] Some Interesting Issues: (Was: Re: J. Chance / Marquette)

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  • WendellWag@aol.com
    In a message dated 12/1/2006 2:18:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dbratman@earthlink.net writes: He s not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 2, 2006
      In a message dated 12/1/2006 2:18:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      dbratman@... writes:

      He's not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the editors of the
      Tolkien linguistic material once described him as "a record store clerk,"
      but while he does work at a record store his position is more responsible
      than that. And the article distinctly failed to mention that he has a
      Ph.D. in Germanic linguistics. (He should be a professor somewhere, but
      have you seen the job market lately? There's a lot of underemployed Ph.D.s
      out there.)



      You're right, and I think I even knew that. I may have gotten him mixed up
      with Christopher Gilson, one of the other major Tolkien linguists, who is a
      programmer, I believe. And to complete the set of major Tolkien linguists,
      there's Patrick Wynne, who does something associated with dentistry (dental
      assistant, manufacturer of false teeth, anyway something associated with
      dentistry but not a dentist). In any case, the point is that most of us don't make
      our living out of the Inklings.

      Wendell Wagner


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Walter Padgett
      Yes. I m with you guys on this. I don t suppose Dickens scholars, (or Hemingway scholars or any other lovers of a group of author s works, for that matter),
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 3, 2006
        Yes. I'm with you guys on this.

        I don't suppose Dickens scholars, (or Hemingway scholars or any other lovers
        of a group of author's works, for that matter), "make a living" out of their
        scholarship on such. Professors get paid for *teaching*, too. Underpaid
        Ph.D.'s have choices about how they are going to make a living, and more
        opportunities than they imagine, I would guess (generalizing).

        The context of the conflict: The one point is to make a living. The other
        point is to do scholarship (or theory or criticism) from the heart, and not
        have it be bound up with the necessity of meeting life's demands, whatever
        the medium of exchange we decide to use for economic purposes.

        Doing Inkling scholarship almost always just comes naturally to these folks,
        regardless of the money, property or prestige it may involve.

        I think any of us can get a little testy when we have something at stake in
        the game, but money doesn't seem to have a lot to do with that.

        Thanks, Walter.





        On 12/2/06, WendellWag@... <WendellWag@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > In a message dated 12/1/2006 2:18:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
        > dbratman@... <dbratman%40earthlink.net> writes:
        >
        > He's not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the editors of the
        > Tolkien linguistic material once described him as "a record store clerk,"
        > but while he does work at a record store his position is more responsible
        > than that. And the article distinctly failed to mention that he has a
        > Ph.D. in Germanic linguistics. (He should be a professor somewhere, but
        > have you seen the job market lately? There's a lot of underemployed Ph.D.s
        > out there.)
        >
        > You're right, and I think I even knew that. I may have gotten him mixed up
        >
        > with Christopher Gilson, one of the other major Tolkien linguists, who is
        > a
        > programmer, I believe. And to complete the set of major Tolkien linguists,
        >
        > there's Patrick Wynne, who does something associated with dentistry
        > (dental
        > assistant, manufacturer of false teeth, anyway something associated with
        > dentistry but not a dentist). In any case, the point is that most of us
        > don't make
        > our living out of the Inklings.
        >
        > Wendell Wagner
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • John D Rateliff
        ... Indeed, one of the very best Tolkien scholars I ve ever known made his living as a bartender. And as for professors straying from their nominal field, I
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 3, 2006
          On Dec 1, 2006, at 10:40 AM, David Bratman wrote:
          > . . . Tolkien scholarship is
          > simply packed with "independent scholars", as they're called, who
          > have no
          > professorial affiliation but who've done excellent work.

          Indeed, one of the very best Tolkien scholars I've ever known made
          his living as a bartender. And as for professors straying from their
          nominal field, I believe Paul Kocher, who wrote the best of the early
          books on Tolkien, was a specialist in Elizabethan lit, while Dr.
          Blackwelder was a zoologist with a special interest in taxonomy.
          --JDR
        • William Cloud Hicklin
          ... called, who ... known made ... from their ... of the early ... while Dr. ... taxonomy. ... ....and one of the leading, if not the leading, contributors of
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
            --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff
            <sacnoth@...> wrote:
            >
            > On Dec 1, 2006, at 10:40 AM, David Bratman wrote:
            > > . . . Tolkien scholarship is
            > > simply packed with "independent scholars", as they're
            called, who
            > > have no
            > > professorial affiliation but who've done excellent work.
            >
            > Indeed, one of the very best Tolkien scholars I've ever
            known made
            > his living as a bartender. And as for professors straying
            from their
            > nominal field, I believe Paul Kocher, who wrote the best
            of the early
            > books on Tolkien, was a specialist in Elizabethan lit,
            while Dr.
            > Blackwelder was a zoologist with a special interest in
            taxonomy.
            > --JDR
            >

            ....and one of the leading, if not the leading, contributors
            of citations to the Oxford English Dictionary was a
            committed inmate in a madhouse. I suppose this should make
            us all feel better.

            For that matter, the great Murray himself was by background
            a bank clerk.
          • Lezlie
            Just my 2 cents: It is also true that academics are required to publish & present at conferences as a part of their employment. They get right testy in
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
              Just my 2 cents:

              It is also true that academics are required to publish & present at
              conferences as a part of their employment. They get right testy in
              guarding their research and frustrated in obtaining access to private
              collections -- especially if that collection is some distance away
              from home & the research is not supported in some really grounded way.
              You may have witnessed this phenomenon in action.

              They also often have to purchase copy from their publishers for review
              by their departments or for other reasons. In the US, because the job
              market is so very tight, some fields are full of "independent
              scholars" who write, publish, present, and teach either part time
              (because they can't do otherwise) at several institutions, or work in
              the private sector. It is much harder to gain access to libraries or
              to conduct studies in -- say -- psychology without a recognized IRB to
              review the proposals, or to grant write -- but, that seems to be the
              way things are going.
              If you are a new Ph.D. the publishing & presentation part will a)
              leave you broke b) cause your friends and relations to counsel you to
              find a different occupation and c) is **also** required in order to
              land that job somewhere that might get you tenure. Maybe. If you are
              very lucky.

              Some universities insist that Profs. also do a lot of grant writing
              and are reviewed on how much they've contributed to their departments
              in terms of $$ in order to remain employed. Personally, I don't
              begrudge the extra $$ Ph.Ds, Profs. & other teaching faculty make off
              the occasional paying publication, be it about Tolkien or otherwise.

              The sad part is that scholars do all of these things and still don't
              get appointments and start believing that they are somehow deficit in
              either education or something else and go out and get more educated or
              leave their respective fields to teach K-12, work in the private
              sector, or even sling hash. In one case that I know of, she became a
              lawyer. It isn't a pretty picture for the state of original research
              being done in a supported way in **anyone's** field. Lezlie <in the
              middle of it all>




              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Walter Padgett" <wpadgett@...> wrote:
              >
              > Yes. I'm with you guys on this.
              >
              > I don't suppose Dickens scholars, (or Hemingway scholars or any
              other lovers
              > of a group of author's works, for that matter), "make a living" out
              of their
              > scholarship on such. Professors get paid for *teaching*, too.
              Underpaid
              > Ph.D.'s have choices about how they are going to make a living, and more
              > opportunities than they imagine, I would guess (generalizing).
              >
              > The context of the conflict: The one point is to make a living.
              The other
              > point is to do scholarship (or theory or criticism) from the heart,
              and not
              > have it be bound up with the necessity of meeting life's demands,
              whatever
              > the medium of exchange we decide to use for economic purposes.
              >
              > Doing Inkling scholarship almost always just comes naturally to
              these folks,
              > regardless of the money, property or prestige it may involve.
              >
              > I think any of us can get a little testy when we have something at
              stake in
              > the game, but money doesn't seem to have a lot to do with that.
              >
              > Thanks, Walter.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > On 12/2/06, WendellWag@... <WendellWag@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > In a message dated 12/1/2006 2:18:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
              > > dbratman@... <dbratman%40earthlink.net> writes:
              > >
              > > He's not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the editors of the
              > > Tolkien linguistic material once described him as "a record store
              clerk,"
              > > but while he does work at a record store his position is more
              responsible
              > > than that. And the article distinctly failed to mention that he has a
              > > Ph.D. in Germanic linguistics. (He should be a professor
              somewhere, but
              > > have you seen the job market lately? There's a lot of
              underemployed Ph.D.s
              > > out there.)
              > >
              > > You're right, and I think I even knew that. I may have gotten him
              mixed up
              > >
              > > with Christopher Gilson, one of the other major Tolkien linguists,
              who is
              > > a
              > > programmer, I believe. And to complete the set of major Tolkien
              linguists,
              > >
              > > there's Patrick Wynne, who does something associated with dentistry
              > > (dental
              > > assistant, manufacturer of false teeth, anyway something
              associated with
              > > dentistry but not a dentist). In any case, the point is that most
              of us
              > > don't make
              > > our living out of the Inklings.
              > >
              > > Wendell Wagner
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Walter Padgett
              Hi! I am reminded here of Michael D.C. Drout s blog, which talks (in places) about Civility in Academia -- the context is the hiring process that academic
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 5, 2006
                Hi!

                I am reminded here of Michael D.C. Drout's blog, which talks (in
                places) about "Civility in Academia"-- the context is the hiring
                process that academic departments go through when hiring academics.
                No academic, it seems upon reflection, should want to be an academic.
                Check his site: http://acunix.wheatonma.edu/mdrout/

                Thanks, Walter.

                On 12/4/06, Lezlie <lezlie1@...> wrote:
                >
                > Just my 2 cents:
                >
                > It is also true that academics are required to publish & present at
                > conferences as a part of their employment. They get right testy in
                > guarding their research and frustrated in obtaining access to private
                > collections -- especially if that collection is some distance away
                > from home & the research is not supported in some really grounded way.
                > You may have witnessed this phenomenon in action.
                >
                > They also often have to purchase copy from their publishers for review
                > by their departments or for other reasons. In the US, because the job
                > market is so very tight, some fields are full of "independent
                > scholars" who write, publish, present, and teach either part time
                > (because they can't do otherwise) at several institutions, or work in
                > the private sector. It is much harder to gain access to libraries or
                > to conduct studies in -- say -- psychology without a recognized IRB to
                > review the proposals, or to grant write -- but, that seems to be the
                > way things are going.
                > If you are a new Ph.D. the publishing & presentation part will a)
                > leave you broke b) cause your friends and relations to counsel you to
                > find a different occupation and c) is **also** required in order to
                > land that job somewhere that might get you tenure. Maybe. If you are
                > very lucky.
                >
                > Some universities insist that Profs. also do a lot of grant writing
                > and are reviewed on how much they've contributed to their departments
                > in terms of $$ in order to remain employed. Personally, I don't
                > begrudge the extra $$ Ph.Ds, Profs. & other teaching faculty make off
                > the occasional paying publication, be it about Tolkien or otherwise.
                >
                > The sad part is that scholars do all of these things and still don't
                > get appointments and start believing that they are somehow deficit in
                > either education or something else and go out and get more educated or
                > leave their respective fields to teach K-12, work in the private
                > sector, or even sling hash. In one case that I know of, she became a
                > lawyer. It isn't a pretty picture for the state of original research
                > being done in a supported way in **anyone's** field. Lezlie <in the
                > middle of it all>
                ...
              • Merlin DeTardo
                Walter: Is Civility in Academia a quote from Michael Drout? If so, could you point me to a link? I m having trouble finding the phrase on either his blog
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 5, 2006
                  Walter:

                  Is "Civility in Academia" a quote from Michael Drout? If so, could
                  you point me to a link? I'm having trouble finding the phrase on
                  either his blog or site. I did read the post to which you referred,
                  where responding to the woes of a graduate student who goes by the
                  nickname "Ancrene Wiseass", he offers tips for academic job-seekers:

                  http://wormtalk.blogspot.com/2006/11/dreaded-and-dreadful-job-search-
                  last.html

                  Thanks,

                  Merlin DeTardo


                  --- "Walter Padgett" <wpadgett@...> wrote:
                  > I am reminded here of Michael D.C. Drout's blog, which talks (in
                  places) about "Civility in Academia" -- the context is the hiring
                  process that academic departments go through when hiring academics.
                  No academic, it seems upon reflection, should want to be an
                  academic. Check his site: http://acunix.wheatonma.edu/mdrout/
                • Walter Padgett
                  Yes, I ll see if I can find that thread in his blog... ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 6, 2006
                    Yes, I'll see if I can find that thread in his blog...

                    On 12/5/06, Merlin DeTardo <emptyD@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Walter:
                    >
                    > Is "Civility in Academia" a quote from Michael Drout? If so, could
                    > you point me to a link? I'm having trouble finding the phrase on
                    > either his blog or site. I did read the post to which you referred,
                    > where responding to the woes of a graduate student who goes by the
                    > nickname "Ancrene Wiseass", he offers tips for academic job-seekers:
                    >
                    > http://wormtalk.blogspot.com/2006/11/dreaded-and-dreadful-job-search-
                    > last.html
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    >
                    > Merlin DeTardo
                    >
                    > --- "Walter Padgett" <wpadgett@...> wrote:
                    > > I am reminded here of Michael D.C. Drout's blog, which talks (in
                    > places) about "Civility in Academia" -- the context is the hiring
                    > process that academic departments go through when hiring academics.
                    > No academic, it seems upon reflection, should want to be an
                    > academic. Check his site: http://acunix.wheatonma.edu/mdrout/
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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