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Re: About dwarves and their connection with nordic myth ...

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  • Jason Fisher
    ... I just confirmed the dim recollection that the topic Carolingians in the Tolkien Encyclopedia comments on this as well. One of Mr. Lobdell s many
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
      > Right. And the source I think I was remembering (though there
      > may have been other places I've read about thism too) is Jim
      > Allan's chapter, "The Giving of Names", in An Introduction to
      > Elvish. The section on Hobbits' names is pp. 190-212 and
      > contains lots of interesting details.

      I just confirmed the dim recollection that the topic "Carolingians" in the Tolkien Encyclopedia comments on this as well. One of Mr. Lobdell's many entries.

      Jason

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • not_thou
      I m out of my depth here, but can suggest some sources to check: Regarding Hobbit first names, Arden Smith, citing Tolkien himself (in LotR s Appendix F?),
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
        I'm out of my depth here, but can suggest some sources to check:

        Regarding Hobbit first names, Arden Smith, citing Tolkien himself (in
        LotR's Appendix F?), talks a little about derivation of Took/Bolger
        personal names from ?Lombardic and Gothic in his paper in the
        Blackwelder collection, "Tolkienian Gothic".

        Regarding Hobbit last names, David Bratman presented a very
        entertaining paper at Birmingham in 2005 called "Hobbit Names Aren't
        from Kentucky", noting the last names were generally English but
        sometimes used more for sound than for sense, if I recall correctly.
        Has / will that paper be published?

        Regarding the dwarves' names... well, I was about to misremember a
        passage from Tolkien's letters, but I see that John Rateliff and
        Anglin Turkam thoroughly covered that subject earlier in this thread
        ("rabble of Eddaic-named Dwarves", etc. -- *Must remember to read
        backwards in the threads.*) As noted by others, this doesn't negate
        the possiblity of Tolkien folding in motifs from other sources when
        he returned to the dwarves for Appendix A, III -- but has anyone
        checked HoMe XII on this point? Also, noting Turkam's speculation of
        possible meanings for some dwarf names, is it true, as the (groan)
        Encyclopedia of Arda says, that "Dwalin" could mean "dawdler" in Old
        Norse? And could that explain the exceptionally long life of the
        first dwarf to appear in The Hobbit?

        Side-note: I'm not very familiar with message etiquette in group-
        lists: what's the preferred procedure for retaining or changing
        subject lines as the conversation drifts away from the original
        topic? Would it have been more or less helpful to readers for me to
        have changed the subject line of this message from "About dwarves and
        their connection with Nordic myth" to something like "Dwarf and
        hobbit names"?

        -Merlin DeTardo


        >--- "William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...> wrote:
        >>--- "Larry Swain" <theswain@> wrote:
        >>>--- Jason wrote:
        >>> Yes, I agree with Larry. It's not beyond the realm of
        possibility, but I think it far more likely that Tolkien got the
        names directly from the Old Norse than through a French
        intermediary. Many of the hobbit names seem to have come from the
        Continent,
        >>Just enquiring about the last statement....The hobbit names came
        from the Continent? Bracegirdles, Proudfoot, Baggins are Continental
        names? I've done any sort of name-study, esp of the hobbits, so I'm
        curious.
        >Not the surnames, the rather pretentious given names of the Great
        Holes: Fredegar, Isengrim, Odavacar etc. Although I believe he
        cribbed the Brandybucks' names (Meriadoc, Gorbadoc, Saradoc) from
        Medieval Welsh.
      • Jason Fisher
        ... That may be true, yes. Zoëga has: dvala, v. to delay, put off dvalan, f. prolongation And other similar words. I ve also seen the meaning torpid but
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
          > Also, noting Turkam's speculation of possible meanings for
          > some dwarf names, is it true, as the (groan) Encyclopedia of
          > Arda says, that "Dwalin" could mean "dawdler" in Old Norse?
          > And could that explain the exceptionally long life of the first
          > dwarf to appear in The Hobbit?

          That may be true, yes. Zoëga has:

          dvala, v. to delay, put off
          dvalan, f. prolongation

          And other similar words. I've also seen the meaning "torpid" but haven't tried to track that down yet. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm currently doing work on this stuff.

          Jason Fisher

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John D Rateliff
          ... I doubt it; Dvalin is one of the most famous of all dwarves in the Old Norse material, famed (among other things) as a great craftsman, and not notable for
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
            On Dec 1, 2006, at 5:26 PM, not_thou wrote:
            > Encyclopedia of Arda says, that "Dwalin" could mean "dawdler" in Old
            > Norse? And could that explain the exceptionally long life of the
            > first dwarf to appear in The Hobbit?

            I doubt it; Dvalin is one of the most famous of all dwarves in the
            Old Norse material, famed (among other things) as a great craftsman,
            and not notable for any "dawdling". In any case, the apparent
            "exceptionally long life" of Tolkien's character is I think the
            result of an error in the reckoning, not any intent on Tolkien's part
            to make him the Old Took of dwarves (that distinction belonging
            instead to Durin the First). Although, that said, it is very like
            Tolkien to add things to characters based on subsequent research that
            were not part of his initial inspiration; I just doubt that is the
            case in this instance.

            > Side-note: are my messages too long? I have noticed several
            > references on this list to matters deemed too complicated for this
            > format.

            There are no rules for length, so far as I know, but short posts are
            more likely to get responded to that long, complex ones. Changing
            headers to reflect changing focus of a post is always welcome. And
            trimming texts being responded to down to the relevant sections is
            definitely good form.

            Re. 'Tolkien Studies' vs. 'Middle-earth Studies', I think it's a
            false dichotomy to divide them. Some things I'm interested in might
            fall in one category, some in the other, and some cut across both.
            It's like trying to divide Lit from Lang; it's better to consider
            both aspects together.

            As for Brooke-Rose, it's been too long since I read her for me to
            respond in detail, but I thought at the time that her chief
            shortcoming was that she was writing a book about fantasy without any
            clear idea of what fantasy was, which made her comments seem random
            and unfocused.

            --JDR

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Anglin Turcam
            ... Great Pyre? Thank s, it s perhaps after Mr John D Ratelif the only positive opinion about this fact. I m very sad to not write as goodly as I want to speak
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 2, 2006
              To William Cloud Hicklin :
              >> Could it be that you're right: these names in fact did inspire the
              Great Pyre?
              Thank's, it's perhaps after Mr John D Ratelif the only positive opinion
              about this fact. I'm very sad to not write as goodly as I want to speak
              about my point of view of my 'paradox' for the 'editorial concession'
              conceded by Pr Tolkien about his dwarves and their possible relation
              with Old norse ones. I'm afraid that I have to say that I'm not agree
              with that fact commonly accepted by all the Tolkien Community ... there
              are too much things to much details to much words that make me think
              that Tolkien did really take a lot of things from Norse Dwarves (
              perhaps even to Norse Cosmogology about them ) to speak about a
              simple 'concession'. I want to go farther than Mr Shippey did realy
              goood about them, farther than the lots of ones that speak only about
              the Names occuring in Völuspá ...


              To Jason :
              >> so I'd be curious to hear more about your work off-list (as you
              suggested it was too complicated for the list). Drop me a line if you'd
              like ...

              Check your MailBox Jason ;)

              >> I'd actually be interested in this too, I'm preparing lecture notes
              on Tolkien's dwarves for a Tolkien class I'm teaching next semester.

              I work also about other interrestings things about Tolkien's dwarves
              like death/size/women/magical object (in fact in Letters Tolkien
              says 'Magic is Art' and the dwarves are Aulë childrens ....). Did you
              read french freely ?
              I can tell you that your lecture notes can be very interresting to me
              if you can send them to my mailbox ?

              Anglin.
            • alexeik@aol.com
              ... From: solicitr@mindspring.com To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 7:02 PM Subject: [mythsoc] Re: About dwarves and their connection with
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 2, 2006
                -----Original Message-----
                From: solicitr@...
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 7:02 PM
                Subject: [mythsoc] Re: About dwarves and their connection with nordic myth ...

                Although I
                believe he cribbed the Brandybucks' names (Meriadoc,
                Gorbadoc, Saradoc) from Medieval Welsh. <<

                That, and even more from mediaeval Cornish and Breton. Alexei >
                .
                AActuaActua
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Larry Swain
                ... Anglin, I ll be happy to send them along when I ve finished them, pretty basic though. And yes, I read French. ljs --
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 4, 2006
                  >
                  > I work also about other interrestings things about Tolkien's dwarves
                  > like death/size/women/magical object (in fact in Letters Tolkien
                  > says 'Magic is Art' and the dwarves are Aulë childrens ....). Did you
                  > read french freely ?
                  > I can tell you that your lecture notes can be very interresting to me
                  > if you can send them to my mailbox ?
                  >
                  > Anglin.
                  >

                  Anglin,

                  I'll be happy to send them along when I've finished them, pretty basic though. And yes, I read French.

                  ljs

                  --
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