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Re: About dwarves and their connection with nordic myth ...

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  • William Cloud Hicklin
    ... possibility, ... names directly ... Many of the ... names came from the Continent? Bracegirdles, Proudfoot, Baggins are Continental names? I ve done any
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Swain" <theswain@...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Jason wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > Yes, I agree with Larry. It's not beyond the realm of
      possibility,
      > > but I think it far more likely that Tolkien got the
      names directly
      > > from the Old Norse than through a French intermediary.
      Many of the
      > > hobbit names seem to have come from the Continent,
      >
      > Just enquiring about the last statement....The hobbit
      names came from the Continent? Bracegirdles, Proudfoot,
      Baggins are Continental names? I've done any sort of name-
      study, esp of the hobbits, so I'm curious.


      Not the surnames, the rather pretentious given names of the
      Great Holes: Fredegar, Isengrim, Odavacar etc. Although I
      believe he cribbed the Brandybucks' names (Meriadoc,
      Gorbadoc, Saradoc) from Medieval Welsh.
      >
      > ljs
      >
      > --
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    • Jason Fisher
      ... Right. And the source I think I was remembering (though there may have been other places I ve read about thism too) is Jim Allan s chapter, The Giving of
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
        > Not the surnames, the rather pretentious given names of the
        > Great Holes: Fredegar, Isengrim, Odavacar etc. Although I
        > believe he cribbed the Brandybucks' names (Meriadoc,
        > Gorbadoc, Saradoc) from Medieval Welsh.

        Right. And the source I think I was remembering (though there may have been other places I've read about thism too) is Jim Allan's chapter, "The Giving of Names", in An Introduction to Elvish. The section on Hobbits' names is pp. 190-212 and contains lots of interesting details.

        Jason Fisher

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jason Fisher
        ... I just confirmed the dim recollection that the topic Carolingians in the Tolkien Encyclopedia comments on this as well. One of Mr. Lobdell s many
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
          > Right. And the source I think I was remembering (though there
          > may have been other places I've read about thism too) is Jim
          > Allan's chapter, "The Giving of Names", in An Introduction to
          > Elvish. The section on Hobbits' names is pp. 190-212 and
          > contains lots of interesting details.

          I just confirmed the dim recollection that the topic "Carolingians" in the Tolkien Encyclopedia comments on this as well. One of Mr. Lobdell's many entries.

          Jason

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • not_thou
          I m out of my depth here, but can suggest some sources to check: Regarding Hobbit first names, Arden Smith, citing Tolkien himself (in LotR s Appendix F?),
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
            I'm out of my depth here, but can suggest some sources to check:

            Regarding Hobbit first names, Arden Smith, citing Tolkien himself (in
            LotR's Appendix F?), talks a little about derivation of Took/Bolger
            personal names from ?Lombardic and Gothic in his paper in the
            Blackwelder collection, "Tolkienian Gothic".

            Regarding Hobbit last names, David Bratman presented a very
            entertaining paper at Birmingham in 2005 called "Hobbit Names Aren't
            from Kentucky", noting the last names were generally English but
            sometimes used more for sound than for sense, if I recall correctly.
            Has / will that paper be published?

            Regarding the dwarves' names... well, I was about to misremember a
            passage from Tolkien's letters, but I see that John Rateliff and
            Anglin Turkam thoroughly covered that subject earlier in this thread
            ("rabble of Eddaic-named Dwarves", etc. -- *Must remember to read
            backwards in the threads.*) As noted by others, this doesn't negate
            the possiblity of Tolkien folding in motifs from other sources when
            he returned to the dwarves for Appendix A, III -- but has anyone
            checked HoMe XII on this point? Also, noting Turkam's speculation of
            possible meanings for some dwarf names, is it true, as the (groan)
            Encyclopedia of Arda says, that "Dwalin" could mean "dawdler" in Old
            Norse? And could that explain the exceptionally long life of the
            first dwarf to appear in The Hobbit?

            Side-note: I'm not very familiar with message etiquette in group-
            lists: what's the preferred procedure for retaining or changing
            subject lines as the conversation drifts away from the original
            topic? Would it have been more or less helpful to readers for me to
            have changed the subject line of this message from "About dwarves and
            their connection with Nordic myth" to something like "Dwarf and
            hobbit names"?

            -Merlin DeTardo


            >--- "William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...> wrote:
            >>--- "Larry Swain" <theswain@> wrote:
            >>>--- Jason wrote:
            >>> Yes, I agree with Larry. It's not beyond the realm of
            possibility, but I think it far more likely that Tolkien got the
            names directly from the Old Norse than through a French
            intermediary. Many of the hobbit names seem to have come from the
            Continent,
            >>Just enquiring about the last statement....The hobbit names came
            from the Continent? Bracegirdles, Proudfoot, Baggins are Continental
            names? I've done any sort of name-study, esp of the hobbits, so I'm
            curious.
            >Not the surnames, the rather pretentious given names of the Great
            Holes: Fredegar, Isengrim, Odavacar etc. Although I believe he
            cribbed the Brandybucks' names (Meriadoc, Gorbadoc, Saradoc) from
            Medieval Welsh.
          • Jason Fisher
            ... That may be true, yes. Zoëga has: dvala, v. to delay, put off dvalan, f. prolongation And other similar words. I ve also seen the meaning torpid but
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
              > Also, noting Turkam's speculation of possible meanings for
              > some dwarf names, is it true, as the (groan) Encyclopedia of
              > Arda says, that "Dwalin" could mean "dawdler" in Old Norse?
              > And could that explain the exceptionally long life of the first
              > dwarf to appear in The Hobbit?

              That may be true, yes. Zoëga has:

              dvala, v. to delay, put off
              dvalan, f. prolongation

              And other similar words. I've also seen the meaning "torpid" but haven't tried to track that down yet. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm currently doing work on this stuff.

              Jason Fisher

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John D Rateliff
              ... I doubt it; Dvalin is one of the most famous of all dwarves in the Old Norse material, famed (among other things) as a great craftsman, and not notable for
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 1, 2006
                On Dec 1, 2006, at 5:26 PM, not_thou wrote:
                > Encyclopedia of Arda says, that "Dwalin" could mean "dawdler" in Old
                > Norse? And could that explain the exceptionally long life of the
                > first dwarf to appear in The Hobbit?

                I doubt it; Dvalin is one of the most famous of all dwarves in the
                Old Norse material, famed (among other things) as a great craftsman,
                and not notable for any "dawdling". In any case, the apparent
                "exceptionally long life" of Tolkien's character is I think the
                result of an error in the reckoning, not any intent on Tolkien's part
                to make him the Old Took of dwarves (that distinction belonging
                instead to Durin the First). Although, that said, it is very like
                Tolkien to add things to characters based on subsequent research that
                were not part of his initial inspiration; I just doubt that is the
                case in this instance.

                > Side-note: are my messages too long? I have noticed several
                > references on this list to matters deemed too complicated for this
                > format.

                There are no rules for length, so far as I know, but short posts are
                more likely to get responded to that long, complex ones. Changing
                headers to reflect changing focus of a post is always welcome. And
                trimming texts being responded to down to the relevant sections is
                definitely good form.

                Re. 'Tolkien Studies' vs. 'Middle-earth Studies', I think it's a
                false dichotomy to divide them. Some things I'm interested in might
                fall in one category, some in the other, and some cut across both.
                It's like trying to divide Lit from Lang; it's better to consider
                both aspects together.

                As for Brooke-Rose, it's been too long since I read her for me to
                respond in detail, but I thought at the time that her chief
                shortcoming was that she was writing a book about fantasy without any
                clear idea of what fantasy was, which made her comments seem random
                and unfocused.

                --JDR

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Anglin Turcam
                ... Great Pyre? Thank s, it s perhaps after Mr John D Ratelif the only positive opinion about this fact. I m very sad to not write as goodly as I want to speak
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 2, 2006
                  To William Cloud Hicklin :
                  >> Could it be that you're right: these names in fact did inspire the
                  Great Pyre?
                  Thank's, it's perhaps after Mr John D Ratelif the only positive opinion
                  about this fact. I'm very sad to not write as goodly as I want to speak
                  about my point of view of my 'paradox' for the 'editorial concession'
                  conceded by Pr Tolkien about his dwarves and their possible relation
                  with Old norse ones. I'm afraid that I have to say that I'm not agree
                  with that fact commonly accepted by all the Tolkien Community ... there
                  are too much things to much details to much words that make me think
                  that Tolkien did really take a lot of things from Norse Dwarves (
                  perhaps even to Norse Cosmogology about them ) to speak about a
                  simple 'concession'. I want to go farther than Mr Shippey did realy
                  goood about them, farther than the lots of ones that speak only about
                  the Names occuring in Völuspá ...


                  To Jason :
                  >> so I'd be curious to hear more about your work off-list (as you
                  suggested it was too complicated for the list). Drop me a line if you'd
                  like ...

                  Check your MailBox Jason ;)

                  >> I'd actually be interested in this too, I'm preparing lecture notes
                  on Tolkien's dwarves for a Tolkien class I'm teaching next semester.

                  I work also about other interrestings things about Tolkien's dwarves
                  like death/size/women/magical object (in fact in Letters Tolkien
                  says 'Magic is Art' and the dwarves are Aulë childrens ....). Did you
                  read french freely ?
                  I can tell you that your lecture notes can be very interresting to me
                  if you can send them to my mailbox ?

                  Anglin.
                • alexeik@aol.com
                  ... From: solicitr@mindspring.com To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 7:02 PM Subject: [mythsoc] Re: About dwarves and their connection with
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 2, 2006
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: solicitr@...
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 7:02 PM
                    Subject: [mythsoc] Re: About dwarves and their connection with nordic myth ...

                    Although I
                    believe he cribbed the Brandybucks' names (Meriadoc,
                    Gorbadoc, Saradoc) from Medieval Welsh. <<

                    That, and even more from mediaeval Cornish and Breton. Alexei >
                    .
                    AActuaActua
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Larry Swain
                    ... Anglin, I ll be happy to send them along when I ve finished them, pretty basic though. And yes, I read French. ljs --
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 4, 2006
                      >
                      > I work also about other interrestings things about Tolkien's dwarves
                      > like death/size/women/magical object (in fact in Letters Tolkien
                      > says 'Magic is Art' and the dwarves are Aulë childrens ....). Did you
                      > read french freely ?
                      > I can tell you that your lecture notes can be very interresting to me
                      > if you can send them to my mailbox ?
                      >
                      > Anglin.
                      >

                      Anglin,

                      I'll be happy to send them along when I've finished them, pretty basic though. And yes, I read French.

                      ljs

                      --
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