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Re: [mythsoc] Some Interesting Issues: (Was: Re: J. Chance / Marquette)

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  • David Bratman
    ... He s not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the editors of the Tolkien linguistic material once described him as a record store clerk, but while
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 1, 2006
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      At 11:18 AM 12/1/2006 -0500, WendellWag@... wrote:

      >I think Arden is also a programmer, but I'm not sure.

      He's not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the editors of the
      Tolkien linguistic material once described him as "a record store clerk,"
      but while he does work at a record store his position is more responsible
      than that. And the article distinctly failed to mention that he has a
      Ph.D. in Germanic linguistics. (He should be a professor somewhere, but
      have you seen the job market lately? There's a lot of underemployed Ph.D.s
      out there.)

      The only relevance of this whole issue is that Tolkien scholarship is
      simply packed with "independent scholars", as they're called, who have no
      professorial affiliation but who've done excellent work. And even some of
      the professors are working way out of their nominal field.

      David Bratman
    • WendellWag@aol.com
      In a message dated 12/1/2006 2:18:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dbratman@earthlink.net writes: He s not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 2, 2006
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        In a message dated 12/1/2006 2:18:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
        dbratman@... writes:

        He's not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the editors of the
        Tolkien linguistic material once described him as "a record store clerk,"
        but while he does work at a record store his position is more responsible
        than that. And the article distinctly failed to mention that he has a
        Ph.D. in Germanic linguistics. (He should be a professor somewhere, but
        have you seen the job market lately? There's a lot of underemployed Ph.D.s
        out there.)



        You're right, and I think I even knew that. I may have gotten him mixed up
        with Christopher Gilson, one of the other major Tolkien linguists, who is a
        programmer, I believe. And to complete the set of major Tolkien linguists,
        there's Patrick Wynne, who does something associated with dentistry (dental
        assistant, manufacturer of false teeth, anyway something associated with
        dentistry but not a dentist). In any case, the point is that most of us don't make
        our living out of the Inklings.

        Wendell Wagner


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Walter Padgett
        Yes. I m with you guys on this. I don t suppose Dickens scholars, (or Hemingway scholars or any other lovers of a group of author s works, for that matter),
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 3, 2006
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          Yes. I'm with you guys on this.

          I don't suppose Dickens scholars, (or Hemingway scholars or any other lovers
          of a group of author's works, for that matter), "make a living" out of their
          scholarship on such. Professors get paid for *teaching*, too. Underpaid
          Ph.D.'s have choices about how they are going to make a living, and more
          opportunities than they imagine, I would guess (generalizing).

          The context of the conflict: The one point is to make a living. The other
          point is to do scholarship (or theory or criticism) from the heart, and not
          have it be bound up with the necessity of meeting life's demands, whatever
          the medium of exchange we decide to use for economic purposes.

          Doing Inkling scholarship almost always just comes naturally to these folks,
          regardless of the money, property or prestige it may involve.

          I think any of us can get a little testy when we have something at stake in
          the game, but money doesn't seem to have a lot to do with that.

          Thanks, Walter.





          On 12/2/06, WendellWag@... <WendellWag@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > In a message dated 12/1/2006 2:18:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          > dbratman@... <dbratman%40earthlink.net> writes:
          >
          > He's not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the editors of the
          > Tolkien linguistic material once described him as "a record store clerk,"
          > but while he does work at a record store his position is more responsible
          > than that. And the article distinctly failed to mention that he has a
          > Ph.D. in Germanic linguistics. (He should be a professor somewhere, but
          > have you seen the job market lately? There's a lot of underemployed Ph.D.s
          > out there.)
          >
          > You're right, and I think I even knew that. I may have gotten him mixed up
          >
          > with Christopher Gilson, one of the other major Tolkien linguists, who is
          > a
          > programmer, I believe. And to complete the set of major Tolkien linguists,
          >
          > there's Patrick Wynne, who does something associated with dentistry
          > (dental
          > assistant, manufacturer of false teeth, anyway something associated with
          > dentistry but not a dentist). In any case, the point is that most of us
          > don't make
          > our living out of the Inklings.
          >
          > Wendell Wagner
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John D Rateliff
          ... Indeed, one of the very best Tolkien scholars I ve ever known made his living as a bartender. And as for professors straying from their nominal field, I
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 3, 2006
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            On Dec 1, 2006, at 10:40 AM, David Bratman wrote:
            > . . . Tolkien scholarship is
            > simply packed with "independent scholars", as they're called, who
            > have no
            > professorial affiliation but who've done excellent work.

            Indeed, one of the very best Tolkien scholars I've ever known made
            his living as a bartender. And as for professors straying from their
            nominal field, I believe Paul Kocher, who wrote the best of the early
            books on Tolkien, was a specialist in Elizabethan lit, while Dr.
            Blackwelder was a zoologist with a special interest in taxonomy.
            --JDR
          • William Cloud Hicklin
            ... called, who ... known made ... from their ... of the early ... while Dr. ... taxonomy. ... ....and one of the leading, if not the leading, contributors of
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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              --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff
              <sacnoth@...> wrote:
              >
              > On Dec 1, 2006, at 10:40 AM, David Bratman wrote:
              > > . . . Tolkien scholarship is
              > > simply packed with "independent scholars", as they're
              called, who
              > > have no
              > > professorial affiliation but who've done excellent work.
              >
              > Indeed, one of the very best Tolkien scholars I've ever
              known made
              > his living as a bartender. And as for professors straying
              from their
              > nominal field, I believe Paul Kocher, who wrote the best
              of the early
              > books on Tolkien, was a specialist in Elizabethan lit,
              while Dr.
              > Blackwelder was a zoologist with a special interest in
              taxonomy.
              > --JDR
              >

              ....and one of the leading, if not the leading, contributors
              of citations to the Oxford English Dictionary was a
              committed inmate in a madhouse. I suppose this should make
              us all feel better.

              For that matter, the great Murray himself was by background
              a bank clerk.
            • Lezlie
              Just my 2 cents: It is also true that academics are required to publish & present at conferences as a part of their employment. They get right testy in
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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                Just my 2 cents:

                It is also true that academics are required to publish & present at
                conferences as a part of their employment. They get right testy in
                guarding their research and frustrated in obtaining access to private
                collections -- especially if that collection is some distance away
                from home & the research is not supported in some really grounded way.
                You may have witnessed this phenomenon in action.

                They also often have to purchase copy from their publishers for review
                by their departments or for other reasons. In the US, because the job
                market is so very tight, some fields are full of "independent
                scholars" who write, publish, present, and teach either part time
                (because they can't do otherwise) at several institutions, or work in
                the private sector. It is much harder to gain access to libraries or
                to conduct studies in -- say -- psychology without a recognized IRB to
                review the proposals, or to grant write -- but, that seems to be the
                way things are going.
                If you are a new Ph.D. the publishing & presentation part will a)
                leave you broke b) cause your friends and relations to counsel you to
                find a different occupation and c) is **also** required in order to
                land that job somewhere that might get you tenure. Maybe. If you are
                very lucky.

                Some universities insist that Profs. also do a lot of grant writing
                and are reviewed on how much they've contributed to their departments
                in terms of $$ in order to remain employed. Personally, I don't
                begrudge the extra $$ Ph.Ds, Profs. & other teaching faculty make off
                the occasional paying publication, be it about Tolkien or otherwise.

                The sad part is that scholars do all of these things and still don't
                get appointments and start believing that they are somehow deficit in
                either education or something else and go out and get more educated or
                leave their respective fields to teach K-12, work in the private
                sector, or even sling hash. In one case that I know of, she became a
                lawyer. It isn't a pretty picture for the state of original research
                being done in a supported way in **anyone's** field. Lezlie <in the
                middle of it all>




                --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Walter Padgett" <wpadgett@...> wrote:
                >
                > Yes. I'm with you guys on this.
                >
                > I don't suppose Dickens scholars, (or Hemingway scholars or any
                other lovers
                > of a group of author's works, for that matter), "make a living" out
                of their
                > scholarship on such. Professors get paid for *teaching*, too.
                Underpaid
                > Ph.D.'s have choices about how they are going to make a living, and more
                > opportunities than they imagine, I would guess (generalizing).
                >
                > The context of the conflict: The one point is to make a living.
                The other
                > point is to do scholarship (or theory or criticism) from the heart,
                and not
                > have it be bound up with the necessity of meeting life's demands,
                whatever
                > the medium of exchange we decide to use for economic purposes.
                >
                > Doing Inkling scholarship almost always just comes naturally to
                these folks,
                > regardless of the money, property or prestige it may involve.
                >
                > I think any of us can get a little testy when we have something at
                stake in
                > the game, but money doesn't seem to have a lot to do with that.
                >
                > Thanks, Walter.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > On 12/2/06, WendellWag@... <WendellWag@...> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > In a message dated 12/1/2006 2:18:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                > > dbratman@... <dbratman%40earthlink.net> writes:
                > >
                > > He's not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the editors of the
                > > Tolkien linguistic material once described him as "a record store
                clerk,"
                > > but while he does work at a record store his position is more
                responsible
                > > than that. And the article distinctly failed to mention that he has a
                > > Ph.D. in Germanic linguistics. (He should be a professor
                somewhere, but
                > > have you seen the job market lately? There's a lot of
                underemployed Ph.D.s
                > > out there.)
                > >
                > > You're right, and I think I even knew that. I may have gotten him
                mixed up
                > >
                > > with Christopher Gilson, one of the other major Tolkien linguists,
                who is
                > > a
                > > programmer, I believe. And to complete the set of major Tolkien
                linguists,
                > >
                > > there's Patrick Wynne, who does something associated with dentistry
                > > (dental
                > > assistant, manufacturer of false teeth, anyway something
                associated with
                > > dentistry but not a dentist). In any case, the point is that most
                of us
                > > don't make
                > > our living out of the Inklings.
                > >
                > > Wendell Wagner
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Walter Padgett
                Hi! I am reminded here of Michael D.C. Drout s blog, which talks (in places) about Civility in Academia -- the context is the hiring process that academic
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 5, 2006
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                  Hi!

                  I am reminded here of Michael D.C. Drout's blog, which talks (in
                  places) about "Civility in Academia"-- the context is the hiring
                  process that academic departments go through when hiring academics.
                  No academic, it seems upon reflection, should want to be an academic.
                  Check his site: http://acunix.wheatonma.edu/mdrout/

                  Thanks, Walter.

                  On 12/4/06, Lezlie <lezlie1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Just my 2 cents:
                  >
                  > It is also true that academics are required to publish & present at
                  > conferences as a part of their employment. They get right testy in
                  > guarding their research and frustrated in obtaining access to private
                  > collections -- especially if that collection is some distance away
                  > from home & the research is not supported in some really grounded way.
                  > You may have witnessed this phenomenon in action.
                  >
                  > They also often have to purchase copy from their publishers for review
                  > by their departments or for other reasons. In the US, because the job
                  > market is so very tight, some fields are full of "independent
                  > scholars" who write, publish, present, and teach either part time
                  > (because they can't do otherwise) at several institutions, or work in
                  > the private sector. It is much harder to gain access to libraries or
                  > to conduct studies in -- say -- psychology without a recognized IRB to
                  > review the proposals, or to grant write -- but, that seems to be the
                  > way things are going.
                  > If you are a new Ph.D. the publishing & presentation part will a)
                  > leave you broke b) cause your friends and relations to counsel you to
                  > find a different occupation and c) is **also** required in order to
                  > land that job somewhere that might get you tenure. Maybe. If you are
                  > very lucky.
                  >
                  > Some universities insist that Profs. also do a lot of grant writing
                  > and are reviewed on how much they've contributed to their departments
                  > in terms of $$ in order to remain employed. Personally, I don't
                  > begrudge the extra $$ Ph.Ds, Profs. & other teaching faculty make off
                  > the occasional paying publication, be it about Tolkien or otherwise.
                  >
                  > The sad part is that scholars do all of these things and still don't
                  > get appointments and start believing that they are somehow deficit in
                  > either education or something else and go out and get more educated or
                  > leave their respective fields to teach K-12, work in the private
                  > sector, or even sling hash. In one case that I know of, she became a
                  > lawyer. It isn't a pretty picture for the state of original research
                  > being done in a supported way in **anyone's** field. Lezlie <in the
                  > middle of it all>
                  ...
                • Merlin DeTardo
                  Walter: Is Civility in Academia a quote from Michael Drout? If so, could you point me to a link? I m having trouble finding the phrase on either his blog
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 5, 2006
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                    Walter:

                    Is "Civility in Academia" a quote from Michael Drout? If so, could
                    you point me to a link? I'm having trouble finding the phrase on
                    either his blog or site. I did read the post to which you referred,
                    where responding to the woes of a graduate student who goes by the
                    nickname "Ancrene Wiseass", he offers tips for academic job-seekers:

                    http://wormtalk.blogspot.com/2006/11/dreaded-and-dreadful-job-search-
                    last.html

                    Thanks,

                    Merlin DeTardo


                    --- "Walter Padgett" <wpadgett@...> wrote:
                    > I am reminded here of Michael D.C. Drout's blog, which talks (in
                    places) about "Civility in Academia" -- the context is the hiring
                    process that academic departments go through when hiring academics.
                    No academic, it seems upon reflection, should want to be an
                    academic. Check his site: http://acunix.wheatonma.edu/mdrout/
                  • Walter Padgett
                    Yes, I ll see if I can find that thread in his blog... ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 6, 2006
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                      Yes, I'll see if I can find that thread in his blog...

                      On 12/5/06, Merlin DeTardo <emptyD@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Walter:
                      >
                      > Is "Civility in Academia" a quote from Michael Drout? If so, could
                      > you point me to a link? I'm having trouble finding the phrase on
                      > either his blog or site. I did read the post to which you referred,
                      > where responding to the woes of a graduate student who goes by the
                      > nickname "Ancrene Wiseass", he offers tips for academic job-seekers:
                      >
                      > http://wormtalk.blogspot.com/2006/11/dreaded-and-dreadful-job-search-
                      > last.html
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      >
                      > Merlin DeTardo
                      >
                      > --- "Walter Padgett" <wpadgett@...> wrote:
                      > > I am reminded here of Michael D.C. Drout's blog, which talks (in
                      > places) about "Civility in Academia" -- the context is the hiring
                      > process that academic departments go through when hiring academics.
                      > No academic, it seems upon reflection, should want to be an
                      > academic. Check his site: http://acunix.wheatonma.edu/mdrout/
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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