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Re: [mythsoc] Some Interesting Issues: (Was: Re: J. Chance / Marquette)

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  • WendellWag@aol.com
    In a message dated 11/30/2006 2:51:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, theswain@operamail.com writes: So I don t think one can charge her with making a living
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 30, 2006
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      In a message dated 11/30/2006 2:51:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      theswain@... writes:

      So I don't think one can charge her with "making a living" off Tolkien
      studies anymore than one can say that about Shippey, Bratman, Hostetter, Hammond
      and Scull, and Drout to name a few.


      One certainly can't charge Bratman, Hostetter, or Hammond and Scull with
      making a living off Tolkien. They don't even make their livings as college
      professors. David Bratman is a librarian. So is Wayne Hammond. Christina Scull
      was a librarian too, and now Hammond and Scull live on Wayne's salary as a
      librarian and the royalties from their books. Carl Hostetter is a computer
      programmer. (My apologies if I'm wrong about any of those jobs.) Come to a
      Mythcon and I'll introduce you to everyone. You'll find that few of us make
      our living from studying the Inklings, and we have lots of different,
      interesting jobs.

      Wendell Wagner


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Walter Padgett
      Hey, That s a bit personal, don t you think. I didn t want to know *that*. But it is *very* interesting, you know. Yours, Walter. PS. I thought Hostetter
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 1, 2006
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        Hey,

        That's a bit personal, don't you think.

        I didn't want to know *that*.

        But it is *very* interesting, you know.

        Yours, Walter.

        PS. I thought Hostetter worked for NASA....
        PSS. Isn't Arden Smith a programmer?
        PSSS. And John Garth a respected journalist?
        PSSSS. What about Ted Nasmith? What's he do for a living? ... What's a
        Nasmith original going for these days, anyway? !!!



        On 11/30/06, WendellWag@... <WendellWag@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > In a message dated 11/30/2006 2:51:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
        > theswain@... <theswain%40operamail.com> writes:
        >
        > So I don't think one can charge her with "making a living" off Tolkien
        > studies anymore than one can say that about Shippey, Bratman, Hostetter,
        > Hammond
        > and Scull, and Drout to name a few.
        >
        > One certainly can't charge Bratman, Hostetter, or Hammond and Scull with
        > making a living off Tolkien. They don't even make their livings as college
        >
        > professors. David Bratman is a librarian. So is Wayne Hammond. Christina
        > Scull
        > was a librarian too, and now Hammond and Scull live on Wayne's salary as a
        >
        > librarian and the royalties from their books. Carl Hostetter is a computer
        >
        > programmer. (My apologies if I'm wrong about any of those jobs.) Come to a
        >
        > Mythcon and I'll introduce you to everyone. You'll find that few of us
        > make
        > our living from studying the Inklings, and we have lots of different,
        > interesting jobs.
        >
        > Wendell Wagner
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • WendellWag@aol.com
        In a message dated 12/1/2006 10:16:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, wpadgett@gmail.com writes: PS. I thought Hostetter worked for NASA.... PSS. Isn t Arden
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 1, 2006
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          In a message dated 12/1/2006 10:16:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          wpadgett@... writes:

          PS. I thought Hostetter worked for NASA....
          PSS. Isn't Arden Smith a programmer?
          PSSS. And John Garth a respected journalist?
          PSSSS. What about Ted Nasmith? What's he do for a living? ... What's a
          Nasmith original going for these days, anyway? !!!



          Yes, Carl is a programmer for NASA.

          I think Arden is also a programmer, but I'm not sure.

          John is or was a journalist, but I don't know what he's doing at the moment.

          I don't know for sure what Ted does for a living. I presume that he makes
          his living at his art.

          Wendell Wagner


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jason Fisher
          ... I seem to recall Arden telling me (in late 2004) that he worked in a record store, like the protagonist of Nick Hornby s High Fidelity -- which I thought
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 1, 2006
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            > I think Arden is also a programmer, but I'm
            > not sure.

            I seem to recall Arden telling me (in late 2004) that he worked in a record store, like the protagonist of Nick Hornby's "High Fidelity" -- which I thought was very hip for a guy with a Ph.D. in Germanic Linguistics from Berkeley. I *wish* I worked in a record store -- but alas, I'm another one of the computer programmers.

            Jason Fisher
          • David Bratman
            ... He s not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the editors of the Tolkien linguistic material once described him as a record store clerk, but while
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 1, 2006
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              At 11:18 AM 12/1/2006 -0500, WendellWag@... wrote:

              >I think Arden is also a programmer, but I'm not sure.

              He's not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the editors of the
              Tolkien linguistic material once described him as "a record store clerk,"
              but while he does work at a record store his position is more responsible
              than that. And the article distinctly failed to mention that he has a
              Ph.D. in Germanic linguistics. (He should be a professor somewhere, but
              have you seen the job market lately? There's a lot of underemployed Ph.D.s
              out there.)

              The only relevance of this whole issue is that Tolkien scholarship is
              simply packed with "independent scholars", as they're called, who have no
              professorial affiliation but who've done excellent work. And even some of
              the professors are working way out of their nominal field.

              David Bratman
            • WendellWag@aol.com
              In a message dated 12/1/2006 2:18:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dbratman@earthlink.net writes: He s not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 2, 2006
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                In a message dated 12/1/2006 2:18:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                dbratman@... writes:

                He's not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the editors of the
                Tolkien linguistic material once described him as "a record store clerk,"
                but while he does work at a record store his position is more responsible
                than that. And the article distinctly failed to mention that he has a
                Ph.D. in Germanic linguistics. (He should be a professor somewhere, but
                have you seen the job market lately? There's a lot of underemployed Ph.D.s
                out there.)



                You're right, and I think I even knew that. I may have gotten him mixed up
                with Christopher Gilson, one of the other major Tolkien linguists, who is a
                programmer, I believe. And to complete the set of major Tolkien linguists,
                there's Patrick Wynne, who does something associated with dentistry (dental
                assistant, manufacturer of false teeth, anyway something associated with
                dentistry but not a dentist). In any case, the point is that most of us don't make
                our living out of the Inklings.

                Wendell Wagner


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Walter Padgett
                Yes. I m with you guys on this. I don t suppose Dickens scholars, (or Hemingway scholars or any other lovers of a group of author s works, for that matter),
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 3, 2006
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                  Yes. I'm with you guys on this.

                  I don't suppose Dickens scholars, (or Hemingway scholars or any other lovers
                  of a group of author's works, for that matter), "make a living" out of their
                  scholarship on such. Professors get paid for *teaching*, too. Underpaid
                  Ph.D.'s have choices about how they are going to make a living, and more
                  opportunities than they imagine, I would guess (generalizing).

                  The context of the conflict: The one point is to make a living. The other
                  point is to do scholarship (or theory or criticism) from the heart, and not
                  have it be bound up with the necessity of meeting life's demands, whatever
                  the medium of exchange we decide to use for economic purposes.

                  Doing Inkling scholarship almost always just comes naturally to these folks,
                  regardless of the money, property or prestige it may involve.

                  I think any of us can get a little testy when we have something at stake in
                  the game, but money doesn't seem to have a lot to do with that.

                  Thanks, Walter.





                  On 12/2/06, WendellWag@... <WendellWag@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > In a message dated 12/1/2006 2:18:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                  > dbratman@... <dbratman%40earthlink.net> writes:
                  >
                  > He's not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the editors of the
                  > Tolkien linguistic material once described him as "a record store clerk,"
                  > but while he does work at a record store his position is more responsible
                  > than that. And the article distinctly failed to mention that he has a
                  > Ph.D. in Germanic linguistics. (He should be a professor somewhere, but
                  > have you seen the job market lately? There's a lot of underemployed Ph.D.s
                  > out there.)
                  >
                  > You're right, and I think I even knew that. I may have gotten him mixed up
                  >
                  > with Christopher Gilson, one of the other major Tolkien linguists, who is
                  > a
                  > programmer, I believe. And to complete the set of major Tolkien linguists,
                  >
                  > there's Patrick Wynne, who does something associated with dentistry
                  > (dental
                  > assistant, manufacturer of false teeth, anyway something associated with
                  > dentistry but not a dentist). In any case, the point is that most of us
                  > don't make
                  > our living out of the Inklings.
                  >
                  > Wendell Wagner
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John D Rateliff
                  ... Indeed, one of the very best Tolkien scholars I ve ever known made his living as a bartender. And as for professors straying from their nominal field, I
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 3, 2006
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                    On Dec 1, 2006, at 10:40 AM, David Bratman wrote:
                    > . . . Tolkien scholarship is
                    > simply packed with "independent scholars", as they're called, who
                    > have no
                    > professorial affiliation but who've done excellent work.

                    Indeed, one of the very best Tolkien scholars I've ever known made
                    his living as a bartender. And as for professors straying from their
                    nominal field, I believe Paul Kocher, who wrote the best of the early
                    books on Tolkien, was a specialist in Elizabethan lit, while Dr.
                    Blackwelder was a zoologist with a special interest in taxonomy.
                    --JDR
                  • William Cloud Hicklin
                    ... called, who ... known made ... from their ... of the early ... while Dr. ... taxonomy. ... ....and one of the leading, if not the leading, contributors of
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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                      --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff
                      <sacnoth@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On Dec 1, 2006, at 10:40 AM, David Bratman wrote:
                      > > . . . Tolkien scholarship is
                      > > simply packed with "independent scholars", as they're
                      called, who
                      > > have no
                      > > professorial affiliation but who've done excellent work.
                      >
                      > Indeed, one of the very best Tolkien scholars I've ever
                      known made
                      > his living as a bartender. And as for professors straying
                      from their
                      > nominal field, I believe Paul Kocher, who wrote the best
                      of the early
                      > books on Tolkien, was a specialist in Elizabethan lit,
                      while Dr.
                      > Blackwelder was a zoologist with a special interest in
                      taxonomy.
                      > --JDR
                      >

                      ....and one of the leading, if not the leading, contributors
                      of citations to the Oxford English Dictionary was a
                      committed inmate in a madhouse. I suppose this should make
                      us all feel better.

                      For that matter, the great Murray himself was by background
                      a bank clerk.
                    • Lezlie
                      Just my 2 cents: It is also true that academics are required to publish & present at conferences as a part of their employment. They get right testy in
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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                        Just my 2 cents:

                        It is also true that academics are required to publish & present at
                        conferences as a part of their employment. They get right testy in
                        guarding their research and frustrated in obtaining access to private
                        collections -- especially if that collection is some distance away
                        from home & the research is not supported in some really grounded way.
                        You may have witnessed this phenomenon in action.

                        They also often have to purchase copy from their publishers for review
                        by their departments or for other reasons. In the US, because the job
                        market is so very tight, some fields are full of "independent
                        scholars" who write, publish, present, and teach either part time
                        (because they can't do otherwise) at several institutions, or work in
                        the private sector. It is much harder to gain access to libraries or
                        to conduct studies in -- say -- psychology without a recognized IRB to
                        review the proposals, or to grant write -- but, that seems to be the
                        way things are going.
                        If you are a new Ph.D. the publishing & presentation part will a)
                        leave you broke b) cause your friends and relations to counsel you to
                        find a different occupation and c) is **also** required in order to
                        land that job somewhere that might get you tenure. Maybe. If you are
                        very lucky.

                        Some universities insist that Profs. also do a lot of grant writing
                        and are reviewed on how much they've contributed to their departments
                        in terms of $$ in order to remain employed. Personally, I don't
                        begrudge the extra $$ Ph.Ds, Profs. & other teaching faculty make off
                        the occasional paying publication, be it about Tolkien or otherwise.

                        The sad part is that scholars do all of these things and still don't
                        get appointments and start believing that they are somehow deficit in
                        either education or something else and go out and get more educated or
                        leave their respective fields to teach K-12, work in the private
                        sector, or even sling hash. In one case that I know of, she became a
                        lawyer. It isn't a pretty picture for the state of original research
                        being done in a supported way in **anyone's** field. Lezlie <in the
                        middle of it all>




                        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Walter Padgett" <wpadgett@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Yes. I'm with you guys on this.
                        >
                        > I don't suppose Dickens scholars, (or Hemingway scholars or any
                        other lovers
                        > of a group of author's works, for that matter), "make a living" out
                        of their
                        > scholarship on such. Professors get paid for *teaching*, too.
                        Underpaid
                        > Ph.D.'s have choices about how they are going to make a living, and more
                        > opportunities than they imagine, I would guess (generalizing).
                        >
                        > The context of the conflict: The one point is to make a living.
                        The other
                        > point is to do scholarship (or theory or criticism) from the heart,
                        and not
                        > have it be bound up with the necessity of meeting life's demands,
                        whatever
                        > the medium of exchange we decide to use for economic purposes.
                        >
                        > Doing Inkling scholarship almost always just comes naturally to
                        these folks,
                        > regardless of the money, property or prestige it may involve.
                        >
                        > I think any of us can get a little testy when we have something at
                        stake in
                        > the game, but money doesn't seem to have a lot to do with that.
                        >
                        > Thanks, Walter.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On 12/2/06, WendellWag@... <WendellWag@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > In a message dated 12/1/2006 2:18:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                        > > dbratman@... <dbratman%40earthlink.net> writes:
                        > >
                        > > He's not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the editors of the
                        > > Tolkien linguistic material once described him as "a record store
                        clerk,"
                        > > but while he does work at a record store his position is more
                        responsible
                        > > than that. And the article distinctly failed to mention that he has a
                        > > Ph.D. in Germanic linguistics. (He should be a professor
                        somewhere, but
                        > > have you seen the job market lately? There's a lot of
                        underemployed Ph.D.s
                        > > out there.)
                        > >
                        > > You're right, and I think I even knew that. I may have gotten him
                        mixed up
                        > >
                        > > with Christopher Gilson, one of the other major Tolkien linguists,
                        who is
                        > > a
                        > > programmer, I believe. And to complete the set of major Tolkien
                        linguists,
                        > >
                        > > there's Patrick Wynne, who does something associated with dentistry
                        > > (dental
                        > > assistant, manufacturer of false teeth, anyway something
                        associated with
                        > > dentistry but not a dentist). In any case, the point is that most
                        of us
                        > > don't make
                        > > our living out of the Inklings.
                        > >
                        > > Wendell Wagner
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Walter Padgett
                        Hi! I am reminded here of Michael D.C. Drout s blog, which talks (in places) about Civility in Academia -- the context is the hiring process that academic
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 5, 2006
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                          Hi!

                          I am reminded here of Michael D.C. Drout's blog, which talks (in
                          places) about "Civility in Academia"-- the context is the hiring
                          process that academic departments go through when hiring academics.
                          No academic, it seems upon reflection, should want to be an academic.
                          Check his site: http://acunix.wheatonma.edu/mdrout/

                          Thanks, Walter.

                          On 12/4/06, Lezlie <lezlie1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Just my 2 cents:
                          >
                          > It is also true that academics are required to publish & present at
                          > conferences as a part of their employment. They get right testy in
                          > guarding their research and frustrated in obtaining access to private
                          > collections -- especially if that collection is some distance away
                          > from home & the research is not supported in some really grounded way.
                          > You may have witnessed this phenomenon in action.
                          >
                          > They also often have to purchase copy from their publishers for review
                          > by their departments or for other reasons. In the US, because the job
                          > market is so very tight, some fields are full of "independent
                          > scholars" who write, publish, present, and teach either part time
                          > (because they can't do otherwise) at several institutions, or work in
                          > the private sector. It is much harder to gain access to libraries or
                          > to conduct studies in -- say -- psychology without a recognized IRB to
                          > review the proposals, or to grant write -- but, that seems to be the
                          > way things are going.
                          > If you are a new Ph.D. the publishing & presentation part will a)
                          > leave you broke b) cause your friends and relations to counsel you to
                          > find a different occupation and c) is **also** required in order to
                          > land that job somewhere that might get you tenure. Maybe. If you are
                          > very lucky.
                          >
                          > Some universities insist that Profs. also do a lot of grant writing
                          > and are reviewed on how much they've contributed to their departments
                          > in terms of $$ in order to remain employed. Personally, I don't
                          > begrudge the extra $$ Ph.Ds, Profs. & other teaching faculty make off
                          > the occasional paying publication, be it about Tolkien or otherwise.
                          >
                          > The sad part is that scholars do all of these things and still don't
                          > get appointments and start believing that they are somehow deficit in
                          > either education or something else and go out and get more educated or
                          > leave their respective fields to teach K-12, work in the private
                          > sector, or even sling hash. In one case that I know of, she became a
                          > lawyer. It isn't a pretty picture for the state of original research
                          > being done in a supported way in **anyone's** field. Lezlie <in the
                          > middle of it all>
                          ...
                        • Merlin DeTardo
                          Walter: Is Civility in Academia a quote from Michael Drout? If so, could you point me to a link? I m having trouble finding the phrase on either his blog
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 5, 2006
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                            Walter:

                            Is "Civility in Academia" a quote from Michael Drout? If so, could
                            you point me to a link? I'm having trouble finding the phrase on
                            either his blog or site. I did read the post to which you referred,
                            where responding to the woes of a graduate student who goes by the
                            nickname "Ancrene Wiseass", he offers tips for academic job-seekers:

                            http://wormtalk.blogspot.com/2006/11/dreaded-and-dreadful-job-search-
                            last.html

                            Thanks,

                            Merlin DeTardo


                            --- "Walter Padgett" <wpadgett@...> wrote:
                            > I am reminded here of Michael D.C. Drout's blog, which talks (in
                            places) about "Civility in Academia" -- the context is the hiring
                            process that academic departments go through when hiring academics.
                            No academic, it seems upon reflection, should want to be an
                            academic. Check his site: http://acunix.wheatonma.edu/mdrout/
                          • Walter Padgett
                            Yes, I ll see if I can find that thread in his blog... ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            Message 13 of 14 , Dec 6, 2006
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                              Yes, I'll see if I can find that thread in his blog...

                              On 12/5/06, Merlin DeTardo <emptyD@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Walter:
                              >
                              > Is "Civility in Academia" a quote from Michael Drout? If so, could
                              > you point me to a link? I'm having trouble finding the phrase on
                              > either his blog or site. I did read the post to which you referred,
                              > where responding to the woes of a graduate student who goes by the
                              > nickname "Ancrene Wiseass", he offers tips for academic job-seekers:
                              >
                              > http://wormtalk.blogspot.com/2006/11/dreaded-and-dreadful-job-search-
                              > last.html
                              >
                              > Thanks,
                              >
                              > Merlin DeTardo
                              >
                              > --- "Walter Padgett" <wpadgett@...> wrote:
                              > > I am reminded here of Michael D.C. Drout's blog, which talks (in
                              > places) about "Civility in Academia" -- the context is the hiring
                              > process that academic departments go through when hiring academics.
                              > No academic, it seems upon reflection, should want to be an
                              > academic. Check his site: http://acunix.wheatonma.edu/mdrout/
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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