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Re: [mythsoc] Re: Fastitocalon

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  • Larry Swain
    ... I overlooked this reference....all the more reason for my entry not to have been included. The Bosworth-Tollers OE dictionary gives the same information,
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 30, 2006
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      >
      >
      >
      > Larry Swain wrote:
      >
      > >> In closing, I should say that I had wanted to find out why
      > >> Tolkien took Fastitlocan for
      > >> a tortoise rather than whale, but was unable to trace anything
      > >> linguistically...not that
      > >> I put that much effort into it.
      >
      > Tolkien's _Letters_, number 255, says that "Fastitocalon" in the
      > Anglo-Saxon bestiary seems to be a corruption of _Aspido-chelone_
      > (with a macron on the second "o"), which he translates "turtle with
      > a round shield (of hide)".

      I overlooked this reference....all the more reason for my entry not to have been included. The Bosworth-Tollers OE dictionary gives the same information, and may be where Tolkien is getting it. I considered this as his inspiration, but couldin't actually find an instance of the compound in Greek or Latin to justify the BT reference, but admittedly I didn't do any kind of extensive search or even really look at scholarship on the Exeter book "The Whale"...ok, I was lazy. Anyway, when I didn't immediately find any references to aspidochelone, I decided I wouldn't include discussion in the article and tabled searching for a "source" until later. aspido, is classical Greek for shield, chelone is a tortoise.


      > For what it's worth, I can mention that when I visited Oxford
      > University's Museum of Natural History some years ago, practically
      > the first thing facing one inside the entrance was a giant turtle.
      > I do not know if it was there in Tolkien's time, but it looked as
      > if it might have been.

      Very interesting!!

      >
      > Chivalrous greetings,
      >
      > Beregond
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >

      >


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    • Walter Padgett
      Hi, It is just this kind of thing in a documentary/biography film (with the right actors) on Tolkien that would be in order, I think. Walter. - - -
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 1, 2006
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        Hi,

        It is just this kind of thing in a documentary/biography film (with
        the right actors) on Tolkien that would be in order, I think.

        Walter.
        - - -

        On 11/30/06, "Beregond. Anders Stenström" <beregond@...> wrote:
        > Larry Swain wrote:
        >
        > >>In closing, I should say that I had wanted to find out why Tolkien took Fastitlocan for a tortoise rather than whale, but was unable to trace anything linguistically...not that I put that much effort into it.
        > >>
        --------------------
        Stenström:

        > Tolkien's _Letters_, number 255, says that "Fastitocalon" in the
        > Anglo-Saxon bestiary seems to be a corruption of _Aspido-chelone_
        > (with a macron on the second "o"), which he translates "turtle with
        > a round shield (of hide)".
        >
        > For what it's worth, I can mention that when I visited Oxford
        > University's Museum of Natural History some years ago, practically
        > the first thing facing one inside the entrance was a giant turtle.
        > I do not know if it was there in Tolkien's time, but it looked as
        > if it might have been.
        >
        > Chivalrous greetings,
        >
        > Beregond
      • Wayne G. Hammond
        ... Carpenter missed it in the chronological checklist of Tolkien s works in the back of the first edition of the Biography, but picked it up in the 1987
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 1, 2006
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          Jason wrote:

          >Ah, I don't have my copy in front of me to refer to, but you must be (or
          >Shippey must have been) referring to its appearance in Stapeldon Magazine,
          >Vol. 7, No. 40. The earlier version of "Oliphaunt" was also published in
          >that issue. And lest you think I just rattled that off from the top of my
          >head, hahae, here's a useful little chronological bibliography I often
          >find myself referring to:
          >
          > http://www.forodrim.org/arda/tbchron.html

          Carpenter missed it in the chronological checklist of Tolkien's works in
          the back of the first edition of the Biography, but picked it up in the
          1987 edition and later. It's also listed elsewhere, e.g. the Tolkien
          Descriptive Bibliography (1993). A few lines are quoted in the
          "Fastitocalon" entry in the Companion and Guide (vol. 2, pp. 295-7), which
          like Larry's article explores the roots of the poem (both poems with that
          title) in the Physiologus, the Voyage of St Brendan, etc.

          Wayne Hammond


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