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Some Interesting Issues: (Was: Re: J. Chance / Marquette)

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  • Larry Swain
    ... I d be very surprised if this were the case. My experiences at the archives (Bodleian Modern Mss section, Marquette, and Wheaton) have all been very
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 30, 2006
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      > --- "ajkjr1" <ajkjr@...> wrote:
      > >> I felt she was jealous of other speakers' access to various
      > information about Tolkien that she did not have access to.
      >
      > I recall hearing grumbling about the subject of limited access to
      > archives from more than one questioner at Marquette, generally
      > answered by Wayne Hammond in the conference's last Q&A. If Chance,
      > an established professional, is not getting access to, say, Bodleian
      > materials that others are allowed to use -- and I don't know if this
      > is true -- than she has a right to feel jealous, no?

      I'd be very surprised if this were the case. My experiences at the archives (Bodleian Modern Mss section, Marquette, and Wheaton) have all been very professional and cordial and the staff very helpful. They were all very clear about the necessity of following certain rules, though. ANyway, I would think that as long as those rules were observed, that access to the materials would be granted and can not imagine any other reason that a scholar of any rank would be denied access.



      >
      > >> I just think she comes off as doing this as a way to make a living
      > which bugs me a bit. I just did not think she has the passion for
      > Tolkien...
      >
      > She does have to make a living, and she could have chosen not to do
      > it studying Tolkien. But you indicate you've read her stuff: what
      > exactly gives you this impression?

      Yes, I too would like details. She after all does make a living: she's a tenured professor at Rice Univ. She isn't going to become the next Bill Gates on that salary, but based on what someone else I know at Rice makes, she can live quite well on it. So I don't think one can charge her with "making a living" off Tolkien studies anymore than one can say that about Shippey, Bratman, Hostetter, Hammond and Scull, and Drout to name a few. I wouldn't say it about any of them/you, and I wouldn't say it about Chance either.

      Larry Swain

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    • WendellWag@aol.com
      In a message dated 11/30/2006 2:51:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, theswain@operamail.com writes: So I don t think one can charge her with making a living
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 30, 2006
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        In a message dated 11/30/2006 2:51:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
        theswain@... writes:

        So I don't think one can charge her with "making a living" off Tolkien
        studies anymore than one can say that about Shippey, Bratman, Hostetter, Hammond
        and Scull, and Drout to name a few.


        One certainly can't charge Bratman, Hostetter, or Hammond and Scull with
        making a living off Tolkien. They don't even make their livings as college
        professors. David Bratman is a librarian. So is Wayne Hammond. Christina Scull
        was a librarian too, and now Hammond and Scull live on Wayne's salary as a
        librarian and the royalties from their books. Carl Hostetter is a computer
        programmer. (My apologies if I'm wrong about any of those jobs.) Come to a
        Mythcon and I'll introduce you to everyone. You'll find that few of us make
        our living from studying the Inklings, and we have lots of different,
        interesting jobs.

        Wendell Wagner


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Walter Padgett
        Hey, That s a bit personal, don t you think. I didn t want to know *that*. But it is *very* interesting, you know. Yours, Walter. PS. I thought Hostetter
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 1, 2006
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          Hey,

          That's a bit personal, don't you think.

          I didn't want to know *that*.

          But it is *very* interesting, you know.

          Yours, Walter.

          PS. I thought Hostetter worked for NASA....
          PSS. Isn't Arden Smith a programmer?
          PSSS. And John Garth a respected journalist?
          PSSSS. What about Ted Nasmith? What's he do for a living? ... What's a
          Nasmith original going for these days, anyway? !!!



          On 11/30/06, WendellWag@... <WendellWag@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > In a message dated 11/30/2006 2:51:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          > theswain@... <theswain%40operamail.com> writes:
          >
          > So I don't think one can charge her with "making a living" off Tolkien
          > studies anymore than one can say that about Shippey, Bratman, Hostetter,
          > Hammond
          > and Scull, and Drout to name a few.
          >
          > One certainly can't charge Bratman, Hostetter, or Hammond and Scull with
          > making a living off Tolkien. They don't even make their livings as college
          >
          > professors. David Bratman is a librarian. So is Wayne Hammond. Christina
          > Scull
          > was a librarian too, and now Hammond and Scull live on Wayne's salary as a
          >
          > librarian and the royalties from their books. Carl Hostetter is a computer
          >
          > programmer. (My apologies if I'm wrong about any of those jobs.) Come to a
          >
          > Mythcon and I'll introduce you to everyone. You'll find that few of us
          > make
          > our living from studying the Inklings, and we have lots of different,
          > interesting jobs.
          >
          > Wendell Wagner
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • WendellWag@aol.com
          In a message dated 12/1/2006 10:16:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, wpadgett@gmail.com writes: PS. I thought Hostetter worked for NASA.... PSS. Isn t Arden
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 1, 2006
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            In a message dated 12/1/2006 10:16:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            wpadgett@... writes:

            PS. I thought Hostetter worked for NASA....
            PSS. Isn't Arden Smith a programmer?
            PSSS. And John Garth a respected journalist?
            PSSSS. What about Ted Nasmith? What's he do for a living? ... What's a
            Nasmith original going for these days, anyway? !!!



            Yes, Carl is a programmer for NASA.

            I think Arden is also a programmer, but I'm not sure.

            John is or was a journalist, but I don't know what he's doing at the moment.

            I don't know for sure what Ted does for a living. I presume that he makes
            his living at his art.

            Wendell Wagner


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jason Fisher
            ... I seem to recall Arden telling me (in late 2004) that he worked in a record store, like the protagonist of Nick Hornby s High Fidelity -- which I thought
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 1, 2006
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              > I think Arden is also a programmer, but I'm
              > not sure.

              I seem to recall Arden telling me (in late 2004) that he worked in a record store, like the protagonist of Nick Hornby's "High Fidelity" -- which I thought was very hip for a guy with a Ph.D. in Germanic Linguistics from Berkeley. I *wish* I worked in a record store -- but alas, I'm another one of the computer programmers.

              Jason Fisher
            • David Bratman
              ... He s not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the editors of the Tolkien linguistic material once described him as a record store clerk, but while
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 1, 2006
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                At 11:18 AM 12/1/2006 -0500, WendellWag@... wrote:

                >I think Arden is also a programmer, but I'm not sure.

                He's not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the editors of the
                Tolkien linguistic material once described him as "a record store clerk,"
                but while he does work at a record store his position is more responsible
                than that. And the article distinctly failed to mention that he has a
                Ph.D. in Germanic linguistics. (He should be a professor somewhere, but
                have you seen the job market lately? There's a lot of underemployed Ph.D.s
                out there.)

                The only relevance of this whole issue is that Tolkien scholarship is
                simply packed with "independent scholars", as they're called, who have no
                professorial affiliation but who've done excellent work. And even some of
                the professors are working way out of their nominal field.

                David Bratman
              • WendellWag@aol.com
                In a message dated 12/1/2006 2:18:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dbratman@earthlink.net writes: He s not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 2, 2006
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                  In a message dated 12/1/2006 2:18:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                  dbratman@... writes:

                  He's not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the editors of the
                  Tolkien linguistic material once described him as "a record store clerk,"
                  but while he does work at a record store his position is more responsible
                  than that. And the article distinctly failed to mention that he has a
                  Ph.D. in Germanic linguistics. (He should be a professor somewhere, but
                  have you seen the job market lately? There's a lot of underemployed Ph.D.s
                  out there.)



                  You're right, and I think I even knew that. I may have gotten him mixed up
                  with Christopher Gilson, one of the other major Tolkien linguists, who is a
                  programmer, I believe. And to complete the set of major Tolkien linguists,
                  there's Patrick Wynne, who does something associated with dentistry (dental
                  assistant, manufacturer of false teeth, anyway something associated with
                  dentistry but not a dentist). In any case, the point is that most of us don't make
                  our living out of the Inklings.

                  Wendell Wagner


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Walter Padgett
                  Yes. I m with you guys on this. I don t suppose Dickens scholars, (or Hemingway scholars or any other lovers of a group of author s works, for that matter),
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 3, 2006
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                    Yes. I'm with you guys on this.

                    I don't suppose Dickens scholars, (or Hemingway scholars or any other lovers
                    of a group of author's works, for that matter), "make a living" out of their
                    scholarship on such. Professors get paid for *teaching*, too. Underpaid
                    Ph.D.'s have choices about how they are going to make a living, and more
                    opportunities than they imagine, I would guess (generalizing).

                    The context of the conflict: The one point is to make a living. The other
                    point is to do scholarship (or theory or criticism) from the heart, and not
                    have it be bound up with the necessity of meeting life's demands, whatever
                    the medium of exchange we decide to use for economic purposes.

                    Doing Inkling scholarship almost always just comes naturally to these folks,
                    regardless of the money, property or prestige it may involve.

                    I think any of us can get a little testy when we have something at stake in
                    the game, but money doesn't seem to have a lot to do with that.

                    Thanks, Walter.





                    On 12/2/06, WendellWag@... <WendellWag@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > In a message dated 12/1/2006 2:18:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                    > dbratman@... <dbratman%40earthlink.net> writes:
                    >
                    > He's not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the editors of the
                    > Tolkien linguistic material once described him as "a record store clerk,"
                    > but while he does work at a record store his position is more responsible
                    > than that. And the article distinctly failed to mention that he has a
                    > Ph.D. in Germanic linguistics. (He should be a professor somewhere, but
                    > have you seen the job market lately? There's a lot of underemployed Ph.D.s
                    > out there.)
                    >
                    > You're right, and I think I even knew that. I may have gotten him mixed up
                    >
                    > with Christopher Gilson, one of the other major Tolkien linguists, who is
                    > a
                    > programmer, I believe. And to complete the set of major Tolkien linguists,
                    >
                    > there's Patrick Wynne, who does something associated with dentistry
                    > (dental
                    > assistant, manufacturer of false teeth, anyway something associated with
                    > dentistry but not a dentist). In any case, the point is that most of us
                    > don't make
                    > our living out of the Inklings.
                    >
                    > Wendell Wagner
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • John D Rateliff
                    ... Indeed, one of the very best Tolkien scholars I ve ever known made his living as a bartender. And as for professors straying from their nominal field, I
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 3, 2006
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                      On Dec 1, 2006, at 10:40 AM, David Bratman wrote:
                      > . . . Tolkien scholarship is
                      > simply packed with "independent scholars", as they're called, who
                      > have no
                      > professorial affiliation but who've done excellent work.

                      Indeed, one of the very best Tolkien scholars I've ever known made
                      his living as a bartender. And as for professors straying from their
                      nominal field, I believe Paul Kocher, who wrote the best of the early
                      books on Tolkien, was a specialist in Elizabethan lit, while Dr.
                      Blackwelder was a zoologist with a special interest in taxonomy.
                      --JDR
                    • William Cloud Hicklin
                      ... called, who ... known made ... from their ... of the early ... while Dr. ... taxonomy. ... ....and one of the leading, if not the leading, contributors of
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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                        --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, John D Rateliff
                        <sacnoth@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > On Dec 1, 2006, at 10:40 AM, David Bratman wrote:
                        > > . . . Tolkien scholarship is
                        > > simply packed with "independent scholars", as they're
                        called, who
                        > > have no
                        > > professorial affiliation but who've done excellent work.
                        >
                        > Indeed, one of the very best Tolkien scholars I've ever
                        known made
                        > his living as a bartender. And as for professors straying
                        from their
                        > nominal field, I believe Paul Kocher, who wrote the best
                        of the early
                        > books on Tolkien, was a specialist in Elizabethan lit,
                        while Dr.
                        > Blackwelder was a zoologist with a special interest in
                        taxonomy.
                        > --JDR
                        >

                        ....and one of the leading, if not the leading, contributors
                        of citations to the Oxford English Dictionary was a
                        committed inmate in a madhouse. I suppose this should make
                        us all feel better.

                        For that matter, the great Murray himself was by background
                        a bank clerk.
                      • Lezlie
                        Just my 2 cents: It is also true that academics are required to publish & present at conferences as a part of their employment. They get right testy in
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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                          Just my 2 cents:

                          It is also true that academics are required to publish & present at
                          conferences as a part of their employment. They get right testy in
                          guarding their research and frustrated in obtaining access to private
                          collections -- especially if that collection is some distance away
                          from home & the research is not supported in some really grounded way.
                          You may have witnessed this phenomenon in action.

                          They also often have to purchase copy from their publishers for review
                          by their departments or for other reasons. In the US, because the job
                          market is so very tight, some fields are full of "independent
                          scholars" who write, publish, present, and teach either part time
                          (because they can't do otherwise) at several institutions, or work in
                          the private sector. It is much harder to gain access to libraries or
                          to conduct studies in -- say -- psychology without a recognized IRB to
                          review the proposals, or to grant write -- but, that seems to be the
                          way things are going.
                          If you are a new Ph.D. the publishing & presentation part will a)
                          leave you broke b) cause your friends and relations to counsel you to
                          find a different occupation and c) is **also** required in order to
                          land that job somewhere that might get you tenure. Maybe. If you are
                          very lucky.

                          Some universities insist that Profs. also do a lot of grant writing
                          and are reviewed on how much they've contributed to their departments
                          in terms of $$ in order to remain employed. Personally, I don't
                          begrudge the extra $$ Ph.Ds, Profs. & other teaching faculty make off
                          the occasional paying publication, be it about Tolkien or otherwise.

                          The sad part is that scholars do all of these things and still don't
                          get appointments and start believing that they are somehow deficit in
                          either education or something else and go out and get more educated or
                          leave their respective fields to teach K-12, work in the private
                          sector, or even sling hash. In one case that I know of, she became a
                          lawyer. It isn't a pretty picture for the state of original research
                          being done in a supported way in **anyone's** field. Lezlie <in the
                          middle of it all>




                          --- In mythsoc@yahoogroups.com, "Walter Padgett" <wpadgett@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Yes. I'm with you guys on this.
                          >
                          > I don't suppose Dickens scholars, (or Hemingway scholars or any
                          other lovers
                          > of a group of author's works, for that matter), "make a living" out
                          of their
                          > scholarship on such. Professors get paid for *teaching*, too.
                          Underpaid
                          > Ph.D.'s have choices about how they are going to make a living, and more
                          > opportunities than they imagine, I would guess (generalizing).
                          >
                          > The context of the conflict: The one point is to make a living.
                          The other
                          > point is to do scholarship (or theory or criticism) from the heart,
                          and not
                          > have it be bound up with the necessity of meeting life's demands,
                          whatever
                          > the medium of exchange we decide to use for economic purposes.
                          >
                          > Doing Inkling scholarship almost always just comes naturally to
                          these folks,
                          > regardless of the money, property or prestige it may involve.
                          >
                          > I think any of us can get a little testy when we have something at
                          stake in
                          > the game, but money doesn't seem to have a lot to do with that.
                          >
                          > Thanks, Walter.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On 12/2/06, WendellWag@... <WendellWag@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > In a message dated 12/1/2006 2:18:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                          > > dbratman@... <dbratman%40earthlink.net> writes:
                          > >
                          > > He's not a programmer. A sneering article attacking the editors of the
                          > > Tolkien linguistic material once described him as "a record store
                          clerk,"
                          > > but while he does work at a record store his position is more
                          responsible
                          > > than that. And the article distinctly failed to mention that he has a
                          > > Ph.D. in Germanic linguistics. (He should be a professor
                          somewhere, but
                          > > have you seen the job market lately? There's a lot of
                          underemployed Ph.D.s
                          > > out there.)
                          > >
                          > > You're right, and I think I even knew that. I may have gotten him
                          mixed up
                          > >
                          > > with Christopher Gilson, one of the other major Tolkien linguists,
                          who is
                          > > a
                          > > programmer, I believe. And to complete the set of major Tolkien
                          linguists,
                          > >
                          > > there's Patrick Wynne, who does something associated with dentistry
                          > > (dental
                          > > assistant, manufacturer of false teeth, anyway something
                          associated with
                          > > dentistry but not a dentist). In any case, the point is that most
                          of us
                          > > don't make
                          > > our living out of the Inklings.
                          > >
                          > > Wendell Wagner
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Walter Padgett
                          Hi! I am reminded here of Michael D.C. Drout s blog, which talks (in places) about Civility in Academia -- the context is the hiring process that academic
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 5, 2006
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                            Hi!

                            I am reminded here of Michael D.C. Drout's blog, which talks (in
                            places) about "Civility in Academia"-- the context is the hiring
                            process that academic departments go through when hiring academics.
                            No academic, it seems upon reflection, should want to be an academic.
                            Check his site: http://acunix.wheatonma.edu/mdrout/

                            Thanks, Walter.

                            On 12/4/06, Lezlie <lezlie1@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Just my 2 cents:
                            >
                            > It is also true that academics are required to publish & present at
                            > conferences as a part of their employment. They get right testy in
                            > guarding their research and frustrated in obtaining access to private
                            > collections -- especially if that collection is some distance away
                            > from home & the research is not supported in some really grounded way.
                            > You may have witnessed this phenomenon in action.
                            >
                            > They also often have to purchase copy from their publishers for review
                            > by their departments or for other reasons. In the US, because the job
                            > market is so very tight, some fields are full of "independent
                            > scholars" who write, publish, present, and teach either part time
                            > (because they can't do otherwise) at several institutions, or work in
                            > the private sector. It is much harder to gain access to libraries or
                            > to conduct studies in -- say -- psychology without a recognized IRB to
                            > review the proposals, or to grant write -- but, that seems to be the
                            > way things are going.
                            > If you are a new Ph.D. the publishing & presentation part will a)
                            > leave you broke b) cause your friends and relations to counsel you to
                            > find a different occupation and c) is **also** required in order to
                            > land that job somewhere that might get you tenure. Maybe. If you are
                            > very lucky.
                            >
                            > Some universities insist that Profs. also do a lot of grant writing
                            > and are reviewed on how much they've contributed to their departments
                            > in terms of $$ in order to remain employed. Personally, I don't
                            > begrudge the extra $$ Ph.Ds, Profs. & other teaching faculty make off
                            > the occasional paying publication, be it about Tolkien or otherwise.
                            >
                            > The sad part is that scholars do all of these things and still don't
                            > get appointments and start believing that they are somehow deficit in
                            > either education or something else and go out and get more educated or
                            > leave their respective fields to teach K-12, work in the private
                            > sector, or even sling hash. In one case that I know of, she became a
                            > lawyer. It isn't a pretty picture for the state of original research
                            > being done in a supported way in **anyone's** field. Lezlie <in the
                            > middle of it all>
                            ...
                          • Merlin DeTardo
                            Walter: Is Civility in Academia a quote from Michael Drout? If so, could you point me to a link? I m having trouble finding the phrase on either his blog
                            Message 13 of 14 , Dec 5, 2006
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                              Walter:

                              Is "Civility in Academia" a quote from Michael Drout? If so, could
                              you point me to a link? I'm having trouble finding the phrase on
                              either his blog or site. I did read the post to which you referred,
                              where responding to the woes of a graduate student who goes by the
                              nickname "Ancrene Wiseass", he offers tips for academic job-seekers:

                              http://wormtalk.blogspot.com/2006/11/dreaded-and-dreadful-job-search-
                              last.html

                              Thanks,

                              Merlin DeTardo


                              --- "Walter Padgett" <wpadgett@...> wrote:
                              > I am reminded here of Michael D.C. Drout's blog, which talks (in
                              places) about "Civility in Academia" -- the context is the hiring
                              process that academic departments go through when hiring academics.
                              No academic, it seems upon reflection, should want to be an
                              academic. Check his site: http://acunix.wheatonma.edu/mdrout/
                            • Walter Padgett
                              Yes, I ll see if I can find that thread in his blog... ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 14 , Dec 6, 2006
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                                Yes, I'll see if I can find that thread in his blog...

                                On 12/5/06, Merlin DeTardo <emptyD@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Walter:
                                >
                                > Is "Civility in Academia" a quote from Michael Drout? If so, could
                                > you point me to a link? I'm having trouble finding the phrase on
                                > either his blog or site. I did read the post to which you referred,
                                > where responding to the woes of a graduate student who goes by the
                                > nickname "Ancrene Wiseass", he offers tips for academic job-seekers:
                                >
                                > http://wormtalk.blogspot.com/2006/11/dreaded-and-dreadful-job-search-
                                > last.html
                                >
                                > Thanks,
                                >
                                > Merlin DeTardo
                                >
                                > --- "Walter Padgett" <wpadgett@...> wrote:
                                > > I am reminded here of Michael D.C. Drout's blog, which talks (in
                                > places) about "Civility in Academia" -- the context is the hiring
                                > process that academic departments go through when hiring academics.
                                > No academic, it seems upon reflection, should want to be an
                                > academic. Check his site: http://acunix.wheatonma.edu/mdrout/
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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