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Re: [mythsoc] Minas Tirith and Constantinople

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  • Stolzi
    ... From: Carl F. Hostetter As for the claim that the name Uruk-Hai ... was surely borrowed from the Yuruk , nomadic tribesmen used as auxiliary soldiers
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 6, 2006
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Carl F. Hostetter

      As for the claim that "the name "Uruk-Hai" ... was surely borrowed
      from the "Yuruk", nomadic tribesmen used as auxiliary soldiers by the
      Ottomans", this is in fact not at all "sure", and indeed is
      exceedingly unlikely, as also is any connection between the Uruk-Hai
      and Sumerian Uruk.
      ---------------------------------

      Actually, I thought that too. But some of the wider similarities between
      Minas Tirith's siege and Constantinople's fall were interesting to
      contemplate.

      Diamond Proudbrook
    • Stolzi
      ... From: John D Rateliff Does anyone know anything about a book called MERE HUMANITY: G. K. CHESTERTON, C. S. LEWIS, AND J. R. R. TOLKIEN ON THE HUMAN
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 6, 2006
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: John D Rateliff


        Does anyone know anything about a book called MERE HUMANITY: G. K.
        CHESTERTON, C. S. LEWIS, AND J. R. R. TOLKIEN ON THE HUMAN CONDITION
        by Donald T. Williams? Apparently it came out in February, but the
        only reader review on amazon.com is singularly unhelpful, being
        written by someone who admits to not having read the book. My gut
        instinct is that a book that tries to cover Chesterton, Lewis, AND
        Tolkien all in 212 pages will have a hard time going justice to any
        of them, but you never know.

        ------------------

        MERE HUMANITY was reviewed recently (this month or maybe last) in the
        Society's publication MYTHPRINT, by someone who =had= read it (Ruby Dunlap).

        Diamond Proudbrook
      • SBolding
        Interesting connection. I had never thought of that link before. It feeds into the overall view of the LOTR as one of Western civilization against the pagan,
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 7, 2006
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          Interesting connection. I had never thought of that
          link before. It feeds into the overall view of the
          LOTR as one of Western civilization against the pagan,
          heathen hoards. Brings to mind the fall/sacking of
          Rome too.
          __________
          Stolzi:
          'Even as a young schoolboy, I couldn't help noticing
          the uncanny resemblance between the siege of Minas
          Tirith in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and the siege of
          Constantinople. On one side, the beautiful walled city
          with its ancient nobility and the few adventurers who
          had come to help in its defence; on the other, evil
          teeming hordes under a despotic ruler. You had only to
          look at the map in the end-papers, where the land of
          Mordor loomed
          to the east like Asia Minor, to get the point.

          'Tolkien even chose the name "Uruk-Hai" for some of
          his nastiest creations, fighting forces of Sauron who
          were a cross between orcs and goblins. This
          was surely borrowed from the "Yuruk", nomadic
          tribesmen used as auxiliary soldiers by the Ottomans.
          Few readers would have known that; but most would
          have got a whiff of something Asiatic here. For one
          thing Tolkien was outstandingly good at was tapping
          into the subconscious of our own, European, cultural
          history.'


          "The worm thinks it strange and foolish
          that man does not eat his books."
          Rabindranath Tagore

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        • John D Rateliff
          ... So it was: MYTHPRINT #290/291 (May/June 06), pages 13-14. Thanks for pointing this out to me; I d missed it. [Non-text portions of this message have been
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 7, 2006
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            On Jul 6, 2006, at 4:13 PM, Stolzi wrote:
            > MERE HUMANITY was reviewed recently (this month or maybe last) in the
            > Society's publication MYTHPRINT, by someone who =had= read it (Ruby
            > Dunlap).

            So it was: MYTHPRINT #290/291 (May/June 06), pages 13-14. Thanks for
            pointing this out to me; I'd missed it.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Stolzi
            Hey, it s what we re here for :) DP ... From: John D Rateliff So it was: MYTHPRINT #290/291 (May/June 06), pages 13-14. Thanks for pointing this out to me; I d
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 7, 2006
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              Hey, it's what we're here for :)

              DP

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: John D Rateliff


              So it was: MYTHPRINT #290/291 (May/June 06), pages 13-14. Thanks for
              pointing this out to me; I'd missed it.
            • Jason Fisher
              ... Ack! I hadn t come across that yet. There wasn t an entry for Uruk (or Erech) in my copy of Letters, so I d missed it on my initial (quick) survey. So just
              Message 6 of 14 , Jul 10, 2006
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                > [Carl F. Hostetter wrote]
                > A line of questioning Tolkien himself addressed in Letter 297:

                Ack! I hadn't come across that yet. There wasn't an entry for Uruk (or Erech) in my copy of Letters, so I'd missed it on my initial (quick) survey. So just out of curiosity, after your astute reply, I took a look at the Hammond/Scull expanded index to the letters (I don't have the updated copy myself, but one can browse through the complete index on Amazon.com): Uruk still isn't in there, but Erech is. :)

                Thanks for pointing this out, Carl.

                Jason
              • Joan.Marie.Verba@sff.net
                I remember a paper delivered at the 1987 Mythcon in Milwaukee on this subject. Does anyone else? Joan
                Message 7 of 14 , Jul 10, 2006
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                  I remember a paper delivered at the 1987 Mythcon in Milwaukee on this subject.
                  Does anyone else?

                  Joan
                • John D Rateliff
                  Mentioned this to a few people recently who I thought would already know about it and found they didn t, so sharing the news here that the earlier version of
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 26, 2006
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                    Mentioned this to a few people recently who I thought would already
                    know about it and found they didn't, so sharing the news here that
                    the earlier version of the SHADOWLANDS movie is now available on dvd.
                    It's been renamed THROUGH THE SHADOWLANDS, presumably so folks won't
                    confuse it with the remake starting Anthony Hopkins and Deborah
                    Winger. Recommended. Josh Ackland is a far better Lewis than Hopkins,
                    far less passive, and the guy they have playing Warnie is amazingly
                    good. Claire Bloom isn't as good a Joy Gresham as Winger--too sweet
                    and ethereal rather than energetic and brassy--but otherwise it's the
                    better of the two films.

                    --JDR
                  • John D Rateliff
                    Heard the following update yesterday, courtesy of Kristin Thompson and Richard West, so thought I d share for those interested in the upcoming Pullman film.
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 1, 2006
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                      Heard the following update yesterday, courtesy of Kristin Thompson
                      and Richard West, so thought I'd share for those interested in the
                      upcoming Pullman film.
                      --JDR

                      ........................................................................
                      .......
                      [[source: VARIETY]]

                      Posted: Sun., Jul. 30, 2006, 6:13pm PT

                      Another 'Compass' point

                      New Kidman gig's 'Golden'

                      By DAVE MCNARY


                      Nicole Kidman will star in New Line's "The Golden Compass," portraying
                      the villainous and glamorous Mrs. Coulter.

                      Shooting on the $150 million production, based on the first part of
                      Phillip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" trilogy, is set for September
                      at London's Shepperton Studios.

                      Chris Weitz is directing from his own script. Brit newcomer Dakota
                      Blue Richards has already been cast for the lead role of Lyra
                      Belacqua, who travels to a parallel universe to battle the forces of
                      evil and rescue her best friend.

                      Scholastic Media's Deborah Forte is producing with Bill Carraro. New
                      Line has staked out a release date of Nov. 16, 2007.

                      Kidman's Blossom Films signed a three-year, first-look feature film
                      production deal earlier this year with 20th Century Fox and Fox 2000.
                      Upcoming films include an untitled pic with Jennifer Jason Leigh for
                      director Noah Baumbach; "Fur," a biopic of photographer Diane Arbus;
                      Warner Bros. horror pic "The Visiting"; and Warner toon "Happy Feet."
                      ------- End of forwarded message -------
                    • John D Rateliff
                      Came across something the other day I thought I d share: think I now have an answer to my earlier question of why Lindskoog at one point advanced the argument
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 10, 2006
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                        Came across something the other day I thought I'd share: think I now
                        have an answer to my earlier question of why Lindskoog at one point
                        advanced the argument that "The Dark Tower" was written in the 1950s.
                        I was looking up something else in SLEUTHING C. S. LEWIS, which is
                        not an easy book to reference, and think I picked out the sequence
                        (my thanks to Joe Christopher for suggesting to me that the answer to
                        why Jared Lobdell had fixed on such a date was in this volume
                        somewhere). On pages 108-109 she claims that an official from the
                        British Library went to the Bodleian to look at "The Man Born Blind"
                        and later wrote her that the manuscript was written in "a light blue
                        ink that was not available until 1950". The next time she refers to
                        this blue ink, she has transferred it from the short story to the
                        novel fragment THE DARK TOWER (page 304, 376). I think this must
                        underlie her "Florence Jacobsen" scenario, the claim that the book
                        originated as a round-robin story to which Lewis contributed (page
                        267). That's all I cd turn up, aside from a reference to Douglas
                        Gresham's claim, according to Lindskoog, that DT was written in 1958
                        (page 228; see also 286-287); if he offered any evidence, she does
                        not report it.
                        I also discovered that she didn't believe CSL wrote Tolkien's
                        obituary, but I have no idea why; her references were too oblique.

                        --JDR
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