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Re: [mythsoc] BBC NEWS | Magazine | The Somme and Tolkien

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  • John D Rateliff
    The Schoolmaster would have been Michael Tolkien. Pretty much a work of fiction, I fear. Whoever came up with that story doesn t take into account No Man s
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 3, 2006
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      The "Schoolmaster" would have been Michael Tolkien.
      Pretty much a work of fiction, I fear. Whoever came up with that
      story doesn't take into account No Man's Land, with its deep mud and
      multiple barriers of barbed wire -- not something a horse could
      casually gallop across.
      As for "Uhlans", wikipedia says some fought in the early weeks of
      the war (e.g., summer/fall 1914) but were then dismounted once trench
      warfare began or else transferred to the Eastern Front, where calvary
      was still actually effective.
      There are also minor quibbles, but let them pass. Clearly
      apocryphal.



      On Jul 3, 2006, at 12:53 PM, Stolzi wrote:
      > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5133000.stm
      >
      > Interesting, but no mention of John Garth's book, though I would
      > bet she has
      > read it, or at least heard him speak.
      >
      > Also I have some trouble with the comment (presently at the bottom)
      > by the
      > Revd John Waddington-Feather. Even if he does give Tolkien's son
      > (which
      > one?) as his authority.
      >
      > A signals officer riding around behind the lines on a cavalry horse?
      > Demonic Uhlans? Reeeeally?
      >
      > I suspect the scene if it ever occurred, occurred primarily, as
      > well as
      > secondarily, in one of Tolkien's nightmares.
      >
      > And if the story is true, why has it never been heard before - by me,
      > anyway? Have any of you heard it?
      >
      > Diamond Proudbrook



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Stolzi
      Anyway, Wikipedia confirms my belief that it was death s-head Hussars, not death s-head Uhlans. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf And yes, the parallel
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 3, 2006
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        Anyway, Wikipedia confirms my belief that it was "death's-head Hussars," not death's-head Uhlans.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf

        And yes, the parallel between "Morgoth's iron dragons" and armored tanks - well, it's always possible the BBC author came up with that independently, but I know that =I= heard it from John Garth.

        Diamond Proudbrook

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Stolzi
        Some scholar ought to beard Mr Waddington-Feather and ask to =see= his correspondence with Michael Tolkien. Diamond Proudbrook [Non-text portions of this
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 4, 2006
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          Some scholar ought to beard Mr Waddington-Feather and ask to =see= his correspondence with Michael Tolkien.

          Diamond Proudbrook

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • WendellWag@aol.com
          In a message dated 7/4/2006 11:32:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Stolzi@comcast.net writes: Some scholar ought to beard Mr Waddington-Feather and ask to =see=
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 4, 2006
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            In a message dated 7/4/2006 11:32:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            Stolzi@... writes:



            Some scholar ought to beard Mr Waddington-Feather and ask to =see= his
            correspondence with Michael Tolkien.





            Why don't you contact the BBC (either by E-mail or by letter) and point out
            all the problems that you and others in this thread have mentioned so far?
            You've made a good case that the author of the article hasn't acknowledged her
            sources and that the letter by Waddington-Feather contains a rather dubious
            story supposedly acquired from Michael Tolkien. You're the one who's
            uncovered the mistakes here, so it should be you who points them out. No need to be
            shy about this.

            Wendell


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Croft, Janet B.
            As far as Tolkien s horsemanship skills are concerned - in the summer of 1912, Tolkien enrolled in King Edward s Horse, a territorial regiment, and spent two
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 5, 2006
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              As far as Tolkien's horsemanship skills are concerned - in the summer of
              1912, Tolkien enrolled in King Edward's Horse, a territorial regiment,
              and spent two weeks in a camp in Kent in training, but resigned after a
              few months.



              A most informative article on Tolkien's horsemanship is Helen
              Armstrong's "It Bore Me Away: Tolkien as Horseman" (Mallorn 30 [1993
              Sept] pp 29-31). In it she recounts that Priscilla Tolkien told her at
              Oxonmoot in 1990 that Tolkien learned to ride as part of his basic
              officer training. Armstrong's conclusion is that Tolkien's depiction of
              horses is that of someone who did not grow up around them, but grew to
              love them after military training as a young man, though having little
              opportunity to ride after that.



              Signalling officers were trained in many methods of delivering messages
              by hand, including by horse, motorcycle, and bicycle. I have a copy of
              the 1914 training manual for signaling used by the British Army, and the
              chapter on Despatch Riding includes guidelines on when and how to use
              horses, how many miles between halts, and so on.



              (And I can see that if I ever get a chance to do a second edition of my
              book, I need to add an index entry for horses and/or cavalry!)



              Janet Brennan Croft
              Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html
              Committee Chair, Mythcon37, http://www.mythsoc.org/mythcon37.html and
              http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/C/Janet.B.Croft-1/ProgressReport1.htm

              ________________________________

              From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of John D Rateliff
              Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 6:00 PM
              To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [mythsoc] BBC NEWS | Magazine | The Somme and Tolkien



              The "Schoolmaster" would have been Michael Tolkien.
              Pretty much a work of fiction, I fear. Whoever came up with that
              story doesn't take into account No Man's Land, with its deep mud and
              multiple barriers of barbed wire -- not something a horse could
              casually gallop across.
              As for "Uhlans", wikipedia says some fought in the early weeks of
              the war (e.g., summer/fall 1914) but were then dismounted once trench
              warfare began or else transferred to the Eastern Front, where calvary
              was still actually effective.
              There are also minor quibbles, but let them pass. Clearly
              apocryphal.

              On Jul 3, 2006, at 12:53 PM, Stolzi wrote:
              > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5133000.stm
              <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5133000.stm>
              >
              > Interesting, but no mention of John Garth's book, though I would
              > bet she has
              > read it, or at least heard him speak.
              >
              > Also I have some trouble with the comment (presently at the bottom)
              > by the
              > Revd John Waddington-Feather. Even if he does give Tolkien's son
              > (which
              > one?) as his authority.
              >
              > A signals officer riding around behind the lines on a cavalry horse?
              > Demonic Uhlans? Reeeeally?
              >
              > I suspect the scene if it ever occurred, occurred primarily, as
              > well as
              > secondarily, in one of Tolkien's nightmares.
              >
              > And if the story is true, why has it never been heard before - by me,
              > anyway? Have any of you heard it?
              >
              > Diamond Proudbrook

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jonathan Michael Reiter
              Resigned after a few months? What could have been the matter? To quote Patti Smith, Horses, Horses, Horses, Horses, Horses, Horses! Land - Horses/Land of a
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 5, 2006
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                Resigned after a few months? What could have been the matter?
                To quote Patti Smith, "Horses, Horses, Horses, Horses, Horses, Horses!" Land - Horses/Land of a Thousand Dances/La Mer De, 1976.
                Jonathan Michael Reiter
                jmr
                ps; How can you tell I just dig Horses? I also dig Cats and Dogs.
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Croft, Janet B.
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 7:20 AM
                Subject: RE: [mythsoc] BBC NEWS | Magazine | The Somme and Tolkien


                As far as Tolkien's horsemanship skills are concerned - in the summer of
                1912, Tolkien enrolled in King Edward's Horse, a territorial regiment,
                and spent two weeks in a camp in Kent in training, but resigned after a
                few months.

                A most informative article on Tolkien's horsemanship is Helen
                Armstrong's "It Bore Me Away: Tolkien as Horseman" (Mallorn 30 [1993
                Sept] pp 29-31). In it she recounts that Priscilla Tolkien told her at
                Oxonmoot in 1990 that Tolkien learned to ride as part of his basic
                officer training. Armstrong's conclusion is that Tolkien's depiction of
                horses is that of someone who did not grow up around them, but grew to
                love them after military training as a young man, though having little
                opportunity to ride after that.

                Signalling officers were trained in many methods of delivering messages
                by hand, including by horse, motorcycle, and bicycle. I have a copy of
                the 1914 training manual for signaling used by the British Army, and the
                chapter on Despatch Riding includes guidelines on when and how to use
                horses, how many miles between halts, and so on.

                (And I can see that if I ever get a chance to do a second edition of my
                book, I need to add an index entry for horses and/or cavalry!)

                Janet Brennan Croft
                Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html
                Committee Chair, Mythcon37, http://www.mythsoc.org/mythcon37.html and
                http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/C/Janet.B.Croft-1/ProgressReport1.htm

                ________________________________

                From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of John D Rateliff
                Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 6:00 PM
                To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [mythsoc] BBC NEWS | Magazine | The Somme and Tolkien

                The "Schoolmaster" would have been Michael Tolkien.
                Pretty much a work of fiction, I fear. Whoever came up with that
                story doesn't take into account No Man's Land, with its deep mud and
                multiple barriers of barbed wire -- not something a horse could
                casually gallop across.
                As for "Uhlans", wikipedia says some fought in the early weeks of
                the war (e.g., summer/fall 1914) but were then dismounted once trench
                warfare began or else transferred to the Eastern Front, where calvary
                was still actually effective.
                There are also minor quibbles, but let them pass. Clearly
                apocryphal.

                On Jul 3, 2006, at 12:53 PM, Stolzi wrote:
                > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5133000.stm
                <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5133000.stm>
                >
                > Interesting, but no mention of John Garth's book, though I would
                > bet she has
                > read it, or at least heard him speak.
                >
                > Also I have some trouble with the comment (presently at the bottom)
                > by the
                > Revd John Waddington-Feather. Even if he does give Tolkien's son
                > (which
                > one?) as his authority.
                >
                > A signals officer riding around behind the lines on a cavalry horse?
                > Demonic Uhlans? Reeeeally?
                >
                > I suspect the scene if it ever occurred, occurred primarily, as
                > well as
                > secondarily, in one of Tolkien's nightmares.
                >
                > And if the story is true, why has it never been heard before - by me,
                > anyway? Have any of you heard it?
                >
                > Diamond Proudbrook

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Croft, Janet B.
                Well, let me quote from my original source, the Humphrey Carpenter biography: In the summer vacation of 1912 Tolkien went into camp for a fortnight with King
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 5, 2006
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                  Well, let me quote from my original source, the Humphrey Carpenter
                  biography:



                  "In the summer vacation of 1912 Tolkien went into camp for a fortnight
                  with King Edward's Horse, a territorial cavalry regiment in which he had
                  recently enrolled. He enjoyed the experience of galloping across the
                  Kentish plains - the camp was near Folkestone - but it was a wet and
                  windy fortnight and the tents were often blown down in the night. This
                  taste of life on horseback was enough for him, and he resigned from the
                  regiment after a few months" (p.58)



                  That's as detailed as it gets, unfortunately. But I suppose rough
                  walking and riding might be more pleasurable if there's a pub at the end
                  rather than a drafty and uncooperative tent...



                  Janet Brennan Croft
                  Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html
                  Committee Chair, Mythcon37, http://www.mythsoc.org/mythcon37.html and
                  http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/C/Janet.B.Croft-1/ProgressReport1.htm

                  ________________________________

                  From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of Jonathan Michael Reiter
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 10:00 AM
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] BBC NEWS | Magazine | The Somme and Tolkien



                  Resigned after a few months? What could have been the matter?
                  To quote Patti Smith, "Horses, Horses, Horses, Horses, Horses, Horses!"
                  Land - Horses/Land of a Thousand Dances/La Mer De, 1976.
                  Jonathan Michael Reiter
                  jmr
                  ps; How can you tell I just dig Horses? I also dig Cats and Dogs.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Croft, Janet B.
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 7:20 AM
                  Subject: RE: [mythsoc] BBC NEWS | Magazine | The Somme and Tolkien

                  As far as Tolkien's horsemanship skills are concerned - in the summer of
                  1912, Tolkien enrolled in King Edward's Horse, a territorial regiment,
                  and spent two weeks in a camp in Kent in training, but resigned after a
                  few months.

                  A most informative article on Tolkien's horsemanship is Helen
                  Armstrong's "It Bore Me Away: Tolkien as Horseman" (Mallorn 30 [1993
                  Sept] pp 29-31). In it she recounts that Priscilla Tolkien told her at
                  Oxonmoot in 1990 that Tolkien learned to ride as part of his basic
                  officer training. Armstrong's conclusion is that Tolkien's depiction of
                  horses is that of someone who did not grow up around them, but grew to
                  love them after military training as a young man, though having little
                  opportunity to ride after that.

                  Signalling officers were trained in many methods of delivering messages
                  by hand, including by horse, motorcycle, and bicycle. I have a copy of
                  the 1914 training manual for signaling used by the British Army, and the
                  chapter on Despatch Riding includes guidelines on when and how to use
                  horses, how many miles between halts, and so on.

                  (And I can see that if I ever get a chance to do a second edition of my
                  book, I need to add an index entry for horses and/or cavalry!)

                  Janet Brennan Croft
                  Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html
                  <http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html>
                  Committee Chair, Mythcon37, http://www.mythsoc.org/mythcon37.html
                  <http://www.mythsoc.org/mythcon37.html> and
                  http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/C/Janet.B.Croft-1/ProgressReport1.htm
                  <http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/C/Janet.B.Croft-1/ProgressReport1.htm>

                  ________________________________

                  From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com>
                  [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                  Behalf
                  Of John D Rateliff
                  Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 6:00 PM
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] BBC NEWS | Magazine | The Somme and Tolkien

                  The "Schoolmaster" would have been Michael Tolkien.
                  Pretty much a work of fiction, I fear. Whoever came up with that
                  story doesn't take into account No Man's Land, with its deep mud and
                  multiple barriers of barbed wire -- not something a horse could
                  casually gallop across.
                  As for "Uhlans", wikipedia says some fought in the early weeks of
                  the war (e.g., summer/fall 1914) but were then dismounted once trench
                  warfare began or else transferred to the Eastern Front, where calvary
                  was still actually effective.
                  There are also minor quibbles, but let them pass. Clearly
                  apocryphal.

                  On Jul 3, 2006, at 12:53 PM, Stolzi wrote:
                  > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5133000.stm
                  <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5133000.stm>
                  <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5133000.stm
                  <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5133000.stm> >
                  >
                  > Interesting, but no mention of John Garth's book, though I would
                  > bet she has
                  > read it, or at least heard him speak.
                  >
                  > Also I have some trouble with the comment (presently at the bottom)
                  > by the
                  > Revd John Waddington-Feather. Even if he does give Tolkien's son
                  > (which
                  > one?) as his authority.
                  >
                  > A signals officer riding around behind the lines on a cavalry horse?
                  > Demonic Uhlans? Reeeeally?
                  >
                  > I suspect the scene if it ever occurred, occurred primarily, as
                  > well as
                  > secondarily, in one of Tolkien's nightmares.
                  >
                  > And if the story is true, why has it never been heard before - by me,
                  > anyway? Have any of you heard it?
                  >
                  > Diamond Proudbrook

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jonathan Michael Reiter
                  Maybe that was for the better. Tolkien was definitely a scholar and not a warrior... Jonathan Michael Reiter jmr ... From: Croft, Janet B. To:
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jul 5, 2006
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                    Maybe that was for the better. Tolkien was definitely a scholar and not a warrior...
                    Jonathan Michael Reiter
                    jmr
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Croft, Janet B.
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:58 AM
                    Subject: RE: [mythsoc] BBC NEWS | Magazine | The Somme and Tolkien


                    Well, let me quote from my original source, the Humphrey Carpenter
                    biography:

                    "In the summer vacation of 1912 Tolkien went into camp for a fortnight
                    with King Edward's Horse, a territorial cavalry regiment in which he had
                    recently enrolled. He enjoyed the experience of galloping across the
                    Kentish plains - the camp was near Folkestone - but it was a wet and
                    windy fortnight and the tents were often blown down in the night. This
                    taste of life on horseback was enough for him, and he resigned from the
                    regiment after a few months" (p.58)

                    That's as detailed as it gets, unfortunately. But I suppose rough
                    walking and riding might be more pleasurable if there's a pub at the end
                    rather than a drafty and uncooperative tent...

                    Janet Brennan Croft
                    Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html
                    Committee Chair, Mythcon37, http://www.mythsoc.org/mythcon37.html and
                    http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/C/Janet.B.Croft-1/ProgressReport1.htm

                    ________________________________

                    From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    Of Jonathan Michael Reiter
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 10:00 AM
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] BBC NEWS | Magazine | The Somme and Tolkien

                    Resigned after a few months? What could have been the matter?
                    To quote Patti Smith, "Horses, Horses, Horses, Horses, Horses, Horses!"
                    Land - Horses/Land of a Thousand Dances/La Mer De, 1976.
                    Jonathan Michael Reiter
                    jmr
                    ps; How can you tell I just dig Horses? I also dig Cats and Dogs.
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Croft, Janet B.
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 7:20 AM
                    Subject: RE: [mythsoc] BBC NEWS | Magazine | The Somme and Tolkien

                    As far as Tolkien's horsemanship skills are concerned - in the summer of
                    1912, Tolkien enrolled in King Edward's Horse, a territorial regiment,
                    and spent two weeks in a camp in Kent in training, but resigned after a
                    few months.

                    A most informative article on Tolkien's horsemanship is Helen
                    Armstrong's "It Bore Me Away: Tolkien as Horseman" (Mallorn 30 [1993
                    Sept] pp 29-31). In it she recounts that Priscilla Tolkien told her at
                    Oxonmoot in 1990 that Tolkien learned to ride as part of his basic
                    officer training. Armstrong's conclusion is that Tolkien's depiction of
                    horses is that of someone who did not grow up around them, but grew to
                    love them after military training as a young man, though having little
                    opportunity to ride after that.

                    Signalling officers were trained in many methods of delivering messages
                    by hand, including by horse, motorcycle, and bicycle. I have a copy of
                    the 1914 training manual for signaling used by the British Army, and the
                    chapter on Despatch Riding includes guidelines on when and how to use
                    horses, how many miles between halts, and so on.

                    (And I can see that if I ever get a chance to do a second edition of my
                    book, I need to add an index entry for horses and/or cavalry!)

                    Janet Brennan Croft
                    Editor of Mythlore http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html
                    <http://www.mythsoc.org/mythlore.html>
                    Committee Chair, Mythcon37, http://www.mythsoc.org/mythcon37.html
                    <http://www.mythsoc.org/mythcon37.html> and
                    http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/C/Janet.B.Croft-1/ProgressReport1.htm
                    <http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/C/Janet.B.Croft-1/ProgressReport1.htm>

                    ________________________________

                    From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com>
                    [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                    Behalf
                    Of John D Rateliff
                    Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 6:00 PM
                    To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:mythsoc%40yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: Re: [mythsoc] BBC NEWS | Magazine | The Somme and Tolkien

                    The "Schoolmaster" would have been Michael Tolkien.
                    Pretty much a work of fiction, I fear. Whoever came up with that
                    story doesn't take into account No Man's Land, with its deep mud and
                    multiple barriers of barbed wire -- not something a horse could
                    casually gallop across.
                    As for "Uhlans", wikipedia says some fought in the early weeks of
                    the war (e.g., summer/fall 1914) but were then dismounted once trench
                    warfare began or else transferred to the Eastern Front, where calvary
                    was still actually effective.
                    There are also minor quibbles, but let them pass. Clearly
                    apocryphal.

                    On Jul 3, 2006, at 12:53 PM, Stolzi wrote:
                    > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5133000.stm
                    <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5133000.stm>
                    <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5133000.stm
                    <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5133000.stm> >
                    >
                    > Interesting, but no mention of John Garth's book, though I would
                    > bet she has
                    > read it, or at least heard him speak.
                    >
                    > Also I have some trouble with the comment (presently at the bottom)
                    > by the
                    > Revd John Waddington-Feather. Even if he does give Tolkien's son
                    > (which
                    > one?) as his authority.
                    >
                    > A signals officer riding around behind the lines on a cavalry horse?
                    > Demonic Uhlans? Reeeeally?
                    >
                    > I suspect the scene if it ever occurred, occurred primarily, as
                    > well as
                    > secondarily, in one of Tolkien's nightmares.
                    >
                    > And if the story is true, why has it never been heard before - by me,
                    > anyway? Have any of you heard it?
                    >
                    > Diamond Proudbrook

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Merlin DeTardo
                    Did anything further come of last summer s questionable report of Tolkien s equestrian adventure on the Western Front? This week at TheOneRing.net, there is a
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 12, 2006
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                      Did anything further come of last summer's questionable report of
                      Tolkien's equestrian adventure on the Western Front?

                      This week at TheOneRing.net, there is a discussion of the use that
                      Tolkien makes of horses in LotR; the first part of the discussion
                      appears here:

                      http://www.theonering.net/rumour_mill/rpg/viewer/readingroom/457D98CE
                      00026287.html

                      One respondent to that thread noted the Rev. John Waddington-
                      Feather's story. There as here, some people expressed doubts (and
                      having subsequently found the discussion here, I have posted a link
                      in the TORn thread to this list's archives, recommending
                      particularly John and Janet's responses). One participant in the
                      new discussion has written to Waddington-Feather for further
                      information (no response yet), but had someone here (or elsewhere,
                      if you know) already followed up on that angle? Diamond?

                      -Merlin DeTardo


                      >>---"Stolzi" <Stolzi@...> wrote:
                      >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5133000.stm
                      >> Also I have some trouble with the comment (presently at the
                      bottom) by the Revd John Waddington-Feather. Even if he does give
                      Tolkien's son (which one?) as his authority.
                      >> A signals officer riding around behind the lines on a cavalry
                      horse? Demonic Uhlans? Reeeeally?
                      >> I suspect the scene if it ever occurred, occurred primarily, as
                      well as secondarily, in one of Tolkien's nightmares.
                      >> And if the story is true, why has it never been heard before -
                      by me, anyway? Have any of you heard it?
                      >> Diamond Proudbrook
                    • Carl F. Hostetter
                      Merlin, I m afraid that Diamond Proudbuck , whom you quote in this matter, was Mary Stolzenbach, who passed away last summer. (I hoped to convey this to you
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 13, 2006
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                        Merlin,

                        I'm afraid that "Diamond Proudbuck", whom you quote in this matter,
                        was Mary Stolzenbach, who passed away last summer.

                        (I hoped to convey this to you privately, but your reply-to e-mail
                        address in your post (<emptyD@...>) appears to be fictitious.)

                        Carl
                      • Merlin DeTardo
                        Carl and everyone: Please accept my apologies for addressing the late Mary Stolzenbach -- I had no idea. My belated condolences to all who knew her. Carl,
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 13, 2006
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                          Carl and everyone:

                          Please accept my apologies for addressing the late Mary Stolzenbach --
                          I had no idea. My belated condolences to all who knew her.

                          Carl, thank you for letting me know.

                          -Merlin DeTardo



                          P.S. My e-mail address is not fictitious; as Carl notes it
                          begins "emptyD", and it ends with "@...". -MTD


                          >>--"Carl F. Hostetter" <Aelfwine@...> wrote:
                          >> Merlin,
                          >> I'm afraid that "Diamond Proudbuck", whom you quote in this
                          matter, was Mary Stolzenbach, who passed away last summer.
                          >> (I hoped to convey this to you privately, but your reply-to e-mail
                          address in your post (<emptyD@...>) appears to be fictitious.)
                          >> Carl
                        • William Cloud Hicklin
                          The Rev. Mr. Waddington-Feather did reply to a poster on The Barrow-Downs forum. I m pretty certain that he s not a crank or a liar, that he really is
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 13, 2006
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                            The Rev. Mr. Waddington-Feather did reply to a poster on The
                            Barrow-Downs forum. I'm pretty certain that he's not a crank
                            or a liar, that he really is relating what he remembers of
                            what Michael T. told him years ago. The problem is that he
                            may have misheard or misremembered, that Michael may have
                            misheard or misremembered, and moreover Michael apparently
                            wasn't above spinning a yarn.


                            I doubt that any such event happened in waking life. Not only
                            was Tolkien's duty and the Somme battlefield such that the
                            whole story is unlikely in the extreme, but I've also
                            determined that the 1 and 2 Leib-Husaren (Totenkopf) were
                            nowhere near the Somme in 1916. (That leaves the 17er
                            Braunschweig- anybody know where they were?)

                            There is a possibility that Tolkien had a nightmare along
                            those lines (although I suppose in a classic dream pattern
                            that final jump would have led to awakening, not landing).
                            Perhaps the subconscious source was war propaganda. After all,
                            the association of skull-and-crossbones badges with German
                            cavalry must have come from somewhere: and Uhlans* figured
                            prominently in "rape of Belgium" stories. In fact, the story
                            has some of the flavor of the "tales from the front" the
                            British papers loved to print in the early days of the war,
                            especially in connection with Mons (where there was a great
                            deal of cavalry activity). Additionally, in fall 1914 German
                            cavalry still wore their busbys and shakoes, whereas by mid-
                            1916 they had gone to standard helmets.

                            *Uhlan is a Polish loan-word for lancer, a term which most
                            German armies adopted during or after the Napoleonic wars.
                            However, in 1914 the IGS issued lances to all cavalry
                            regiments, and withdrew sabres soon thereafter; Allied
                            soldiers understandably called all German horse "Uhlans,"
                            regardless of regiment.
                          • Merlin DeTardo
                            Thank you for that information. I d not visited the Barrow-Downs forum before. That discussion can be found here:
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 13, 2006
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                              Thank you for that information. I'd not visited the Barrow-Downs
                              forum before. That discussion can be found here:

                              http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12979&page=1

                              The correspondence from Fr. Waddington-Feather appears in message
                              #31, posted July 5, 2006.

                              I think one small correction should be made to Waddington-Feather's
                              remarks posted there: he writes that Tolkien "was Professor of
                              English at Leeds just before I went there", but Tolkien left in 1925,
                              and Waddington-Feather, b. 1933, would have attended in the early
                              1950s. His larger point about Tolkien's lasting influence on Leeds's
                              English Dept. (at that time) apparently stands, if I correctly
                              remember Tom Shippey's comments on that point.

                              -Merlin DeTardo


                              >>---"William Cloud Hicklin" <solicitr@...> wrote:
                              >> The Rev. Mr. Waddington-Feather did reply to a poster on The
                              Barrow-Downs forum. I'm pretty certain that he's not a crank or a
                              liar, that he really is relating what he remembers of what Michael T.
                              told him years ago. The problem is that he may have misheard or
                              misremembered, that Michael may have misheard or misremembered, and
                              moreover Michael apparently wasn't above spinning a yarn.
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