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Re: [mythsoc] Rowling discussion!

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  • Carl F. Hostetter
    ... You ve elevated a silent, unconscious, and completely reasonable instinct to the level of a conscious and deliberate determination, which of course it
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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      On Jun 29, 2006, at 9:21 AM, David Bratman wrote:

      > Perhaps people will note this inadequacy in the future, or perhaps
      > they will sit secure in the confidence that what they see,
      > everybody sees.

      You've elevated a silent, unconscious, and completely reasonable
      instinct to the level of a conscious and deliberate determination,
      which of course it wasn't: Pat didn't say to himself, "Gee, even
      though this is a spoiler, I'm going to post this, since everyone
      knows it anyways". It never occurred to him that it could conceivably
      BE a "spoiler", just as it would never have occurred to me to think
      it was, and still wouldn't if someone hadn't claimed it was. In fact,
      I STILL don't think it IS a spoiler, and I doubt that Pat does
      either. AGAIN: Pat had NO REASON to think the news item was a
      "spoiler", so "sitting secure in confidence" never entered the picture.

      So what you're in fact asking is that no one trust their own judgment
      and instinct as to what is or is not a spoiler, but instead to
      deliberately second-guess every instinct before posting in this
      forum. I rather expect that what will actually happen is that Pat,
      having been called on the carpet for doing something he didn't intend
      and doesn't feel he actually did -- and neither do I -- will simply
      not bother to post here again, the cost of doing so having been made
      too great, both in terms of demanded second-guessing of instinct in
      forethought and in wearisomeness of reaction.

      > The Fellowship would never have snuck the Ring past Sauron if they
      > thought he grasped everything that they did.
      If all the major news sources we have now existed in Middle-earth
      during the Third Age, and were broadcasting the Fellowship's
      movements and plans, then they would have been fools to think that
      Sauron DIDN'T know.

      Also, I note that you've just given out a MAJOR "spoiler" for _The
      Lord of the Rings_. You shouldn't ASSUME that everyone here has read
      the books, just because the story now surrounds us in the mass media
      and culture, right? And yet I don't see the big flashing "SPOLER
      WARNING" anywhere in your post....

      > Furthermore, there's a huge yawning difference between being
      > _unsurprised_ that Rowling is considering killing Harry off, and
      > reading that she actually _said_ she was considering it.

      No, there isn't. There may be a difference, but it is slight and
      insignificant, in that it doesn't change ANYTHING about what one does
      or does not expect with regard to the H.P. series; this is hardly
      "huge" or "yawning".
    • Oberhelman, D
      Looking at that subject line gave me a flashback to Who Shot J.R.? in 1980 (?). This is the 21st-century literary equivalent! (By the way Mike, I will see
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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        Looking at that subject line gave me a flashback to "Who Shot J.R.?" in
        1980 (?). This is the 21st-century literary equivalent!



        (By the way Mike, I will see you bright and early on Saturday for more
        JRRT and CSL. I leave for Toronto tomorrow.)



        David





        ________________________________

        From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Mike Foster
        Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:10 AM
        To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Who will JKR bump off?



        The Sportin' Life in me begins to think we should maybe start a little
        pool up on this. $1 an entry, write down your two guesses, one entry
        per contestant. Winner[s] take[s] all in 2007. Far Westfarthing smial
        is already up and at this. A member wrote of her daughter, an HP
        devotee:

        "Amber says
        that Rowling gives clues every other book. Clues in bk 2 for bk 4,
        clues in 1 for 3 with the idea that readers tend to forget in between.
        She says we should look to book 5 OotP for clues to 7. Amber has also
        said though the last time she made predictions, every one was wrong....
        And that JKR is the master of the 'Red Herring'."

        JKR is simply stoking the star-making machinery--as if she needs to.

        Mike

        David Bratman wrote:

        >I think what has been proven here, and which my previous post was
        intended
        >to say - if not, perhaps, as clearly as it should have - is that
        something
        >supposedly being on "every major news outlet" is a completely
        inadequate
        >device for determining whether announcing it will be a spoiler. It was
        >not, in fact, on "every major news outlet", though it may have been on
        a
        >lot, and it wasn't in big flashing headlines, so it was easily missed.
        >This was not exactly a news story on the level of, say, September 11th.
        >
        >Perhaps people will note this inadequacy in the future, or perhaps they
        >will sit secure in the confidence that what they see, everybody sees.
        The
        >Fellowship would never have snuck the Ring past Sauron if they thought
        he
        >grasped everything that they did.
        >
        >Furthermore, there's a huge yawning difference between being
        _unsurprised_
        >that Rowling is considering killing Harry off, and reading that she
        >actually _said_ she was considering it.
        >
        >DB
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
        <http://www.mythsoc.org>
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Carl F. Hostetter
        ... You ve elevated a silent, unconscious, and completely reasonable instinct to the level of a conscious and deliberate determination, which of course it
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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          On Jun 29, 2006, at 9:21 AM, David Bratman wrote:

          > Perhaps people will note this inadequacy in the future, or perhaps
          > they will sit secure in the confidence that what they see,
          > everybody sees.

          You've elevated a silent, unconscious, and completely reasonable
          instinct to the level of a conscious and deliberate determination,
          which of course it wasn't: Pat didn't say to himself, "Gee, even
          though this is a spoiler, I'm going to post this, since everyone
          knows it anyways". It never occurred to him that it could conceivably
          BE a "spoiler", just as it would never have occurred to me to think
          it was, and still wouldn't if someone hadn't claimed it was. In fact,
          I STILL don't think it IS a spoiler, and I doubt that Pat does
          either. AGAIN: Pat had NO REASON to think the news item was a
          "spoiler", so "sitting secure in confidence" never entered the picture.

          So what you're in fact asking is that no one trust their own judgment
          and instinct as to what is or is not a spoiler, but instead to
          deliberately second-guess every instinct before posting in this
          forum. I rather expect that what will actually happen is that Pat,
          having been called on the carpet for doing something he didn't intend
          and doesn't feel he actually did -- and neither do I -- will simply
          not bother to post here again, the cost of doing so having been made
          too great, both in terms of demanded second-guessing of instinct in
          forethought and in wearisomeness of reaction.

          > The Fellowship would never have snuck the Ring past Sauron if they
          > thought he grasped everything that they did.

          If all the major news sources we have now existed in Middle-earth
          during the Third Age, and were broadcasting the Fellowship's
          movements and plans, then they would have been fools to think that
          Sauron DIDN'T know.

          Also, I note that you've just given out a MAJOR "spoiler" for _The
          Lord of the Rings_. You shouldn't ASSUME that everyone here has read
          the books, just because the story now surrounds us in the mass media
          and culture, right? And yet I don't see the big flashing "SPOLER
          WARNING" anywhere in your post....

          > Furthermore, there's a huge yawning difference between being
          > _unsurprised_ that Rowling is considering killing Harry off, and
          > reading that she actually _said_ she was considering it.

          No, there isn't. There may be a difference, but it is slight and
          insignificant, in that it doesn't change ANYTHING about what one does
          or does not expect with regard to the H.P. series; this is hardly
          "huge" or "yawning".
        • Mike Foster
          David, And remember that trick ending...actually, I don t. I leave home at 4:45 a.m. tomorrow, too early to be bright. See you there. Travelling mercies.
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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            David,
            And remember that trick ending...actually, I don't.

            I leave home at 4:45 a.m. tomorrow, too early to be bright. See you
            there. Travelling mercies.

            Mike

            Oberhelman, D wrote:

            >Looking at that subject line gave me a flashback to "Who Shot J.R.?" in
            >1980 (?). This is the 21st-century literary equivalent!
            >
            >
            >
            >(By the way Mike, I will see you bright and early on Saturday for more
            >JRRT and CSL. I leave for Toronto tomorrow.)
            >
            >
            >
            >David
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >________________________________
            >
            >From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            >Of Mike Foster
            >Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:10 AM
            >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Who will JKR bump off?
            >
            >
            >
            >The Sportin' Life in me begins to think we should maybe start a little
            >pool up on this. $1 an entry, write down your two guesses, one entry
            >per contestant. Winner[s] take[s] all in 2007. Far Westfarthing smial
            >is already up and at this. A member wrote of her daughter, an HP
            >devotee:
            >
            >"Amber says
            >that Rowling gives clues every other book. Clues in bk 2 for bk 4,
            >clues in 1 for 3 with the idea that readers tend to forget in between.
            >She says we should look to book 5 OotP for clues to 7. Amber has also
            >said though the last time she made predictions, every one was wrong....
            >And that JKR is the master of the 'Red Herring'."
            >
            >JKR is simply stoking the star-making machinery--as if she needs to.
            >
            >Mike
            >
            >David Bratman wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >>I think what has been proven here, and which my previous post was
            >>
            >>
            >intended
            >
            >
            >>to say - if not, perhaps, as clearly as it should have - is that
            >>
            >>
            >something
            >
            >
            >>supposedly being on "every major news outlet" is a completely
            >>
            >>
            >inadequate
            >
            >
            >>device for determining whether announcing it will be a spoiler. It was
            >>not, in fact, on "every major news outlet", though it may have been on
            >>
            >>
            >a
            >
            >
            >>lot, and it wasn't in big flashing headlines, so it was easily missed.
            >>This was not exactly a news story on the level of, say, September 11th.
            >>
            >>Perhaps people will note this inadequacy in the future, or perhaps they
            >>will sit secure in the confidence that what they see, everybody sees.
            >>
            >>
            >The
            >
            >
            >>Fellowship would never have snuck the Ring past Sauron if they thought
            >>
            >>
            >he
            >
            >
            >>grasped everything that they did.
            >>
            >>Furthermore, there's a huge yawning difference between being
            >>
            >>
            >_unsurprised_
            >
            >
            >>that Rowling is considering killing Harry off, and reading that she
            >>actually _said_ she was considering it.
            >>
            >>DB
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
            >>
            >>
            ><http://www.mythsoc.org>
            >
            >
            >>Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Edith.Crowe@sjsu.edu
            Speaking not as a Steward but as someone who s getting tired if this thread, could we get back to discussing books, or the Inklings, or all that stuff? Edith
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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              Speaking not as a Steward but as someone who's getting tired if this
              thread, could we get back to discussing books, or the Inklings, or all
              that stuff?

              Edith L. Crowe | (408) 808-2037 | edith.crowe@...
              Art & Humanities Librarian & Coordinator of Graduate Instruction
              San Jose State University Library (http://www.sjlibrary.org)

              Corresponding Secretary of the Mythopoeic Society (http://www.mythsoc.org)

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • visualweasel
              ... CNN = Crebain News Network? ;-)
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                > If all the major news sources we have now existed in
                > Middle-earth during the Third Age, and were broadcasting
                > the Fellowship's movements and plans, then they would
                > have been fools to think that Sauron DIDN'T know.

                CNN = Crebain News Network? ;-)
              • Walkermonk@aol.com
                I second that emotion! Grace Walker Monk In a message dated 6/29/2006 12:32:00 PM Central Standard Time, Edith.Crowe@sjsu.edu writes: Speaking not as a Steward
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                  I second that emotion!

                  Grace Walker Monk

                  In a message dated 6/29/2006 12:32:00 PM Central Standard Time,
                  Edith.Crowe@... writes:
                  Speaking not as a Steward but as someone who's getting tired if this
                  thread, could we get back to discussing books, or the Inklings, or all
                  that stuff?


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Mike Foster
                  Had JRRT experienced the same dazzling success in 1954 as JKR, and he told the media that at least five major characters would face death in the third volume,
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                    Had JRRT experienced the same dazzling success in 1954 as JKR, and he
                    told the media that at least five major characters would face death in
                    the third volume, ooh la la.

                    Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

                    >On Jun 29, 2006, at 9:21 AM, David Bratman wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>Perhaps people will note this inadequacy in the future, or perhaps
                    >>they will sit secure in the confidence that what they see,
                    >>everybody sees.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >You've elevated a silent, unconscious, and completely reasonable
                    >instinct to the level of a conscious and deliberate determination,
                    >which of course it wasn't: Pat didn't say to himself, "Gee, even
                    >though this is a spoiler, I'm going to post this, since everyone
                    >knows it anyways". It never occurred to him that it could conceivably
                    >BE a "spoiler", just as it would never have occurred to me to think
                    >it was, and still wouldn't if someone hadn't claimed it was. In fact,
                    >I STILL don't think it IS a spoiler, and I doubt that Pat does
                    >either. AGAIN: Pat had NO REASON to think the news item was a
                    >"spoiler", so "sitting secure in confidence" never entered the picture.
                    >
                    >So what you're in fact asking is that no one trust their own judgment
                    >and instinct as to what is or is not a spoiler, but instead to
                    >deliberately second-guess every instinct before posting in this
                    >forum. I rather expect that what will actually happen is that Pat,
                    >having been called on the carpet for doing something he didn't intend
                    >and doesn't feel he actually did -- and neither do I -- will simply
                    >not bother to post here again, the cost of doing so having been made
                    >too great, both in terms of demanded second-guessing of instinct in
                    >forethought and in wearisomeness of reaction.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>The Fellowship would never have snuck the Ring past Sauron if they
                    >>thought he grasped everything that they did.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >If all the major news sources we have now existed in Middle-earth
                    >during the Third Age, and were broadcasting the Fellowship's
                    >movements and plans, then they would have been fools to think that
                    >Sauron DIDN'T know.
                    >
                    >Also, I note that you've just given out a MAJOR "spoiler" for _The
                    >Lord of the Rings_. You shouldn't ASSUME that everyone here has read
                    >the books, just because the story now surrounds us in the mass media
                    >and culture, right? And yet I don't see the big flashing "SPOLER
                    >WARNING" anywhere in your post....
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>Furthermore, there's a huge yawning difference between being
                    >>_unsurprised_ that Rowling is considering killing Harry off, and
                    >>reading that she actually _said_ she was considering it.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >No, there isn't. There may be a difference, but it is slight and
                    >insignificant, in that it doesn't change ANYTHING about what one does
                    >or does not expect with regard to the H.P. series; this is hardly
                    >"huge" or "yawning".
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Walter Padgett
                    What s Crebain? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                      What's Crebain?

                      On 6/29/06, visualweasel <visualweasel@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > If all the major news sources we have now existed in
                      > > Middle-earth during the Third Age, and were broadcasting
                      > > the Fellowship's movements and plans, then they would
                      > > have been fools to think that Sauron DIDN'T know.
                      >
                      > CNN = Crebain News Network? ;-)
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Linda DeMars
                      If you have the opportunity, try to take in Jef Murray s workshop. He talks about Tolkien s handling of a universal longing for home as illustrated in his
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                        If you have the opportunity, try to take in Jef Murray's workshop. He
                        talks about Tolkien's handling of a universal longing for home as
                        illustrated in his beautiful paintings. I had the privilege to hear
                        a "trial run" of Jef's presentation a few weeks ago.

                        Linda D.
                      • Carl F. Hostetter
                        ... Indeed. And if he had, the fault for the spoiler (if it is to be regarded as such) would have lay with him, not with whoever subsequently commented on
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                          On Jun 29, 2006, at 2:18 PM, Mike Foster wrote:

                          > Had JRRT experienced the same dazzling success in 1954 as JKR, and he
                          > told the media that at least five major characters would face death in
                          > the third volume, ooh la la.
                          Indeed. And if he had, the "fault" for the "spoiler" (if it is to be
                          regarded as such) would have lay with him, not with whoever
                          subsequently commented on what he said to media.
                        • John D Rateliff
                          Crebain are the evil crows that spy upon the Fellowship as they make their way through Eregion. Cf. The Ring Goes South (LotR Bk II Chapter III).
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                            "Crebain" are the evil crows that spy upon the Fellowship as they
                            make their way through Eregion. Cf. "The Ring Goes South" (LotR Bk II
                            Chapter III).


                            On Jun 29, 2006, at 12:04 PM, Walter Padgett wrote:

                            > What's Crebain?
                          • David Bratman
                            ... I suggest you look in the mirror when you say that. Such a claim is only in your imagination. I am offering not castigations, but guidance for the future.
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                              At 10:35 AM 6/29/2006 -0400, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

                              >You've elevated a silent, unconscious, and completely reasonable
                              >instinct to the level of a conscious and deliberate determination,

                              I suggest you look in the mirror when you say that. Such a claim is only
                              in your imagination.

                              I am offering not castigations, but guidance for the future. If people
                              didn't know before now that what appears on the home page of USA Today is
                              not automatically known to the entire world the same morning, well then,
                              they know it now. Perhaps they will take this into consideration. Or,
                              perhaps, they will prefer to write indignant posts full of words in
                              all-caps. Their choice.

                              My wife informs me that the news appeared in the gossip column of our local
                              paper. Which I skim over if I read it at all, as I have no interest in the
                              doings of overhyped movie stars like Brad and Janet (or whatever their
                              names are) who are the normal fare of gossip columns.

                              It would certainly be ironic if being au courant with the morning's gossip
                              columns were expected of members of a society founded to honor two men
                              whose unworldliness was such that one of them had never heard of Ava
                              Gardner even when personally introduced to her, and the other thought Tito
                              was the King of Greece.

                              Your other arguments are too absurd to be worth replying to.

                              DB
                            • David Bratman
                              ... No, don t _tell_ him! Um, Crebain are the evil biscuits from the Lonely Mountain that the Fellowship ate on their journey, and that caused Boromir to go
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                At 03:29 PM 6/29/2006 -0700, John D Rateliff wrote:

                                >"Crebain" are the evil crows that spy upon the Fellowship as they
                                >make their way through Eregion. Cf. "The Ring Goes South" (LotR Bk II
                                >Chapter III).

                                No, don't _tell_ him!

                                Um, "Crebain" are the evil biscuits from the Lonely Mountain that the
                                Fellowship ate on their journey, and that caused Boromir to go all wormy
                                and Ring-lusty.

                                DB
                              • Walkermonk@aol.com
                                Wow. The same man who wrote, Your other arguments are too absurd to be worth replying to. also wrote, Perhaps people will note this inadequacy in the
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                  Wow.

                                  The same man who wrote, "Your other arguments are too absurd to be worth
                                  replying to." also wrote, "Perhaps people will note this inadequacy in the
                                  future, or perhaps they
                                  will sit secure in the confidence that what they see, everybody sees. The
                                  Fellowship would never have snuck the Ring past Sauron if they thought he
                                  grasped everything that they did."

                                  Somehow posting a note about a well-publicized interview on a book not yet
                                  finished is become worth comparing to the struggles of the Fellowship of the
                                  Ring. Ouucchhh. My brain just will not go into that shape!


                                  I haven't giggled this much while reading email in, well, weeks. Thanks for
                                  the fun!

                                  Grace Walker Monk






                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • David Bratman
                                  ... If the implication is that I expected that the absurdity of the arguments should be self-evident, that is mistaken. The statement was only to say that I
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                    At 11:30 PM 6/29/2006 -0400, Walkermonk@... wrote:

                                    >The same man who wrote, "Your other arguments are too absurd to be worth
                                    >replying to." also wrote, "Perhaps people will note this inadequacy in the
                                    >future, or perhaps they
                                    >will sit secure in the confidence that what they see, everybody sees. The
                                    >Fellowship would never have snuck the Ring past Sauron if they thought he
                                    >grasped everything that they did."

                                    If the implication is that I expected that the absurdity of the arguments
                                    should be self-evident, that is mistaken. The statement was only to say
                                    that I acknowledged reading the arguments, but found them not worth
                                    replying to.


                                    >Somehow posting a note about a well-publicized interview on a book not yet
                                    >finished is become worth comparing to the struggles of the Fellowship of the
                                    >Ring. Ouucchhh. My brain just will not go into that shape!

                                    In the Mythopoeic Society that I belong to, people make comparisons to
                                    events in The Lord of the Rings all the time. Ask Mike Foster, for
                                    instance, who wrote a quite sober scholarly paper comparing the Hobbits to
                                    the Beatles.


                                    >I haven't giggled this much while reading email in, well, weeks. Thanks for
                                    >the fun!

                                    You are more easily amused than I thought.

                                    DB
                                  • Carl F. Hostetter
                                    ... I suggest that while you are urging others to look in a mirror, you look up the definition of straw man . NO ONE has suggested anything like this about
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                      On Jun 29, 2006, at 10:59 PM, David Bratman wrote:
                                      > If people didn't know before now that what appears on the home page
                                      > of USA Today is not automatically known to the entire world the
                                      > same morning, well then, they know it now.
                                      I suggest that while you are urging others to look in a mirror, you
                                      look up the definition of "straw man". NO ONE has suggested anything
                                      like this about "USA Today" or any other single news outlet. You
                                      might find things less _absurdam_ if you didn't employ such straw-man
                                      _reductio_.

                                      I expect that USA Today carried news of the Sept. 11 attacks: does
                                      that mean that no one can be expected to have learned of it? Yet,
                                      alas, this is precisely the force of your "argument" here. The fact
                                      is, Pat referred to the story being mentioned in a WIDE VARIETY of
                                      major news sources, as shown by a simple Google search, (only) ONE of
                                      which happened to be USA Today. YOU now prefer to act as though that
                                      is the only one Pat mentioned.
                                      > It would certainly be ironic if being au courant with the morning's
                                      > gossip columns were expected of members
                                      Again, you cut quite a figure of straw. No one has suggested any such
                                      absurd notion; nor was the news of Rowling's statements confined
                                      either to the gossip columns or to USA Today, as you would have it.

                                      Condescend much?
                                    • David Bratman
                                      ... Actually, I think someone did. See below. ... No it is not. Here we see Carl F. Hostetter completely failing to grasp the difference between [see my
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                        At 12:38 AM 6/30/2006 -0400, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

                                        >On Jun 29, 2006, at 10:59 PM, David Bratman wrote:
                                        >> If people didn't know before now that what appears on the home page
                                        >> of USA Today is not automatically known to the entire world the
                                        >> same morning, well then, they know it now.
                                        >I suggest that while you are urging others to look in a mirror, you
                                        >look up the definition of "straw man". NO ONE has suggested anything
                                        >like this about "USA Today" or any other single news outlet.

                                        Actually, I think someone did. See below.

                                        >I expect that USA Today carried news of the Sept. 11 attacks: does
                                        >that mean that no one can be expected to have learned of it? Yet,
                                        >alas, this is precisely the force of your "argument" here.

                                        No it is not. Here we see Carl F. Hostetter completely failing to grasp
                                        the difference between [see my quote above] "not automatically known" and
                                        "automatically not known," the latter of which being what I'd have to have
                                        written for his argument to have any validity. But I didn't. Some linguist.

                                        We also have, perhaps with better excuse, his failing to remember that in
                                        an earlier post I drew the precise distinction he's insisting on here. I
                                        wrote: "it wasn't in big flashing headlines, so it was easily missed. This
                                        was not exactly a news story on the level of, say, September 11th." You
                                        couldn't read a newspaper the next day and fail to notice that one. You
                                        could read one and fail to notice J.K. Rowling. There's a difference.

                                        Also: if I understand the timing correctly, Pat posted on the same day that
                                        he read the Rowling news. I'm not sure how early on that day, but by
                                        comparison there were actually people in the world, not out in a desert or
                                        on top of a mountain, who didn't hear about the September 11th attacks
                                        until much later in the day. They might even have first heard about the
                                        attacks by reading someone's e-mail. I heard about them in a telephone
                                        call, not from a media news source at all. Only after the call, and
                                        because of it, did I turn on the radio.


                                        >The fact
                                        >is, Pat referred to the story being mentioned in a WIDE VARIETY of
                                        >major news sources, as shown by a simple Google search, (only) ONE of
                                        >which happened to be USA Today.

                                        Having deleted the old posts, I may be misremembering. But I recall Pat
                                        saying that the home page of USA Today is where _he_ read about the Rowling
                                        thing.

                                        If he conducted that Google search of his before sending his first post on
                                        the subject to the list, then I apologize. But I got the impression, when
                                        he wrote of his search, that he had conducted it _after_ the complaint was
                                        made, and did so for the purpose of defending his claim that the news was
                                        wide-spread.

                                        If these suppositions are correct, then it was the appearance of the news
                                        in USA Today, and not the results of the Google search, that led Pat to
                                        assume the news would be no spoiler. That is why I referred to USA Today.

                                        In any case, if you see a news item on USA Today, you don't need a Google
                                        search to reasonably conclude that it will be widespread elsewhere. All
                                        the Google search provided was concrete evidence of that conclusion. It is
                                        not wrong to make that conclusion, Google search or no Google search. But
                                        that still makes it no less incorrect to conclude that everybody in your
                                        readership will therefore have heard the news in the same day. That is the
                                        point, and the whole point.


                                        >> It would certainly be ironic if being au courant with the morning's
                                        >> gossip columns were expected of members
                                        >Again, you cut quite a figure of straw. No one has suggested any such
                                        >absurd notion; nor was the news of Rowling's statements confined
                                        >either to the gossip columns or to USA Today, as you would have it.

                                        Again, no. Because the gossip column of my local paper is the place where
                                        _I_ would have read about it, if I'd read about it at all. And I am one of
                                        those who is being told that I should not have missed this story. Which
                                        requires me to have read the gossip column, since I didn't see the thing on
                                        any web searching I did that day either.

                                        Even if you disallow that, the general point is still relevant. The men
                                        who did not know Ava Gardner or Tito were not the type to be checking daily
                                        newspapers every morning for the hot feature news items. And this is a
                                        feature story. It's not September 11th. You seem to have trouble grasping
                                        the difference.

                                        DB
                                      • Carl F. Hostetter
                                        ... I stumbled across at least three stories about Rowling s spoilers yesterday on my personal Yahoo! page (AP and Reuters) and USA Today homepage . THREE.
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jun 30, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          On Jun 30, 2006, at 2:44 AM, David Bratman wrote:

                                          > Having deleted the old posts, I may be misremembering. But I recall
                                          > Pat saying that the home page of USA Today is where _he_ read about
                                          > the Rowling thing.

                                          "I stumbled across at least three stories about Rowling's "spoilers"
                                          yesterday on my personal Yahoo! page (AP and Reuters) and USA Today
                                          homepage".

                                          THREE. Including AP and Reuters.

                                          > Again, no. Because the gossip column of my local paper is the place
                                          > where _I_ would have read about it, if I'd read about it at all.
                                          > And I am one of those who is being told that I should not have
                                          > missed this story. Which requires me to have read the gossip
                                          > column, since I didn't see the thing on any web searching I did
                                          > that day either.

                                          So is everyone now required to poll YOU before we decide to comment
                                          upon a news item or any other piece of information?

                                          I'd ask YOU to spend some time in front of the mirror today
                                          reflecting on the fact that you've gone out of your way to publicly
                                          insult at least three people on this list, at least two of whom count
                                          you as a friend, all in order to establish that, despite it being
                                          reported in all the major news outlets, YOU didn't read or hear a
                                          news item concerning a wildly popular series of books, and that
                                          therefore it was wrong for Pat to trust his instinct that most people
                                          HAD already heard the news item, again despite it having appeared in
                                          at least three major news outlets; all because Pat posted a
                                          lighthearted comment concerning a POSSIBLE development in a series of
                                          books that you've already stated you don't care about.
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