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Re: [mythsoc] Rowling discussion!

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  • David Bratman
    You must think the Internet is pretty small if 16 (or even a much larger number) of news sites is all over the Internet. I m afraid that USA Today is out of
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 28, 2006
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      You must think the Internet is pretty small if 16 (or even a much larger number) of news sites is "all over the Internet."

      I'm afraid that USA Today is out of my ken, but I do read some of those newspapers occasionally. Nevertheless no links to stories about Rowling appeared on the front page of any of the 8 or 10 news or commentary sites I happened to look at yesterday. And that was a day I was off work. When I am working I usually only see 2 or 3 - and read the Mythsoc list. So I heard about it here. It's a lot easier to miss whimsical feature stories like that than you obviously think. USA Today isn't the world.

      DB
    • Carl F. Hostetter
      OK folks, I think we re missing the point here, which is: Pat had NO REASON AT ALL to even SUSPECT that the news item he was commenting on would not already be
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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        OK folks, I think we're missing the point here, which is: Pat had NO
        REASON AT ALL to even SUSPECT that the news item he was commenting on
        would not already be well-known to list members, as in fact it WAS
        featured in every major news outlet both online and off. Whether or
        not any particular person here somehow managed to avoid every major
        news outlet for the past few days and thus in fact learned of the
        widespread report here first, is irrelevant: Pat had NO REASON to
        think this WASN'T already well-known, and thus NO REASON to suspect
        it would be interpreted as a "spoiler".

        (What's more, I've never read any of the H.P. books, but even _I_ am
        COMPLETELY UNSURPRISED that Rowling is _considering_ killing Harry
        off: it's a screamingly obvious potential plot development: it was so
        BEFORE Rowling said anything about CONSIDERING it, and since she only
        said she's CONSIDERING it, it REMAINS exactly what it was before: a
        screamingly obvious POTENTIAL plot development. So what exactly has
        been "spoiled"? Oh, and by the way, to whoever it was that wondered
        why Rowling would make such a speculation in public, it's very
        simple: to MAKE THE NEWS, to get her books (present and forthcoming)
        BACK IN THE NEWS and BACK IN PUBLIC CONSCIOUSNESS, in advance of
        selling her NEXT book. In other words: MARKETING. In other words, SHE
        _WANTED_ YOU TO HEAR WHAT SHE SAID ABOUT H.P.)
      • David Bratman
        I think what has been proven here, and which my previous post was intended to say - if not, perhaps, as clearly as it should have - is that something
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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          I think what has been proven here, and which my previous post was intended
          to say - if not, perhaps, as clearly as it should have - is that something
          supposedly being on "every major news outlet" is a completely inadequate
          device for determining whether announcing it will be a spoiler. It was
          not, in fact, on "every major news outlet", though it may have been on a
          lot, and it wasn't in big flashing headlines, so it was easily missed.
          This was not exactly a news story on the level of, say, September 11th.

          Perhaps people will note this inadequacy in the future, or perhaps they
          will sit secure in the confidence that what they see, everybody sees. The
          Fellowship would never have snuck the Ring past Sauron if they thought he
          grasped everything that they did.

          Furthermore, there's a huge yawning difference between being _unsurprised_
          that Rowling is considering killing Harry off, and reading that she
          actually _said_ she was considering it.

          DB
        • Carl F. Hostetter
          ... You ve elevated a silent, unconscious, and completely reasonable instinct to the level of a conscious and deliberate determination, which of course it
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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            On Jun 29, 2006, at 9:21 AM, David Bratman wrote:

            > Perhaps people will note this inadequacy in the future, or perhaps
            > they will sit secure in the confidence that what they see,
            > everybody sees.

            You've elevated a silent, unconscious, and completely reasonable
            instinct to the level of a conscious and deliberate determination,
            which of course it wasn't: Pat didn't say to himself, "Gee, even
            though this is a spoiler, I'm going to post this, since everyone
            knows it anyways". It never occurred to him that it could conceivably
            BE a "spoiler", just as it would never have occurred to me to think
            it was, and still wouldn't if someone hadn't claimed it was. In fact,
            I STILL don't think it IS a spoiler, and I doubt that Pat does
            either. AGAIN: Pat had NO REASON to think the news item was a
            "spoiler", so "sitting secure in confidence" never entered the picture.

            So what you're in fact asking is that no one trust their own judgment
            and instinct as to what is or is not a spoiler, but instead to
            deliberately second-guess every instinct before posting in this
            forum. I rather expect that what will actually happen is that Pat,
            having been called on the carpet for doing something he didn't intend
            and doesn't feel he actually did -- and neither do I -- will simply
            not bother to post here again, the cost of doing so having been made
            too great, both in terms of demanded second-guessing of instinct in
            forethought and in wearisomeness of reaction.

            > The Fellowship would never have snuck the Ring past Sauron if they
            > thought he grasped everything that they did.
            If all the major news sources we have now existed in Middle-earth
            during the Third Age, and were broadcasting the Fellowship's
            movements and plans, then they would have been fools to think that
            Sauron DIDN'T know.

            Also, I note that you've just given out a MAJOR "spoiler" for _The
            Lord of the Rings_. You shouldn't ASSUME that everyone here has read
            the books, just because the story now surrounds us in the mass media
            and culture, right? And yet I don't see the big flashing "SPOLER
            WARNING" anywhere in your post....

            > Furthermore, there's a huge yawning difference between being
            > _unsurprised_ that Rowling is considering killing Harry off, and
            > reading that she actually _said_ she was considering it.

            No, there isn't. There may be a difference, but it is slight and
            insignificant, in that it doesn't change ANYTHING about what one does
            or does not expect with regard to the H.P. series; this is hardly
            "huge" or "yawning".
          • Mike Foster
            The Sportin Life in me begins to think we should maybe start a little pool up on this. $1 an entry, write down your two guesses, one entry per contestant.
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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              The Sportin' Life in me begins to think we should maybe start a little
              pool up on this. $1 an entry, write down your two guesses, one entry
              per contestant. Winner[s] take[s] all in 2007. Far Westfarthing smial
              is already up and at this. A member wrote of her daughter, an HP devotee:

              "Amber says
              that Rowling gives clues every other book. Clues in bk 2 for bk 4,
              clues in 1 for 3 with the idea that readers tend to forget in between.
              She says we should look to book 5 OotP for clues to 7. Amber has also
              said though the last time she made predictions, every one was wrong....
              And that JKR is the master of the 'Red Herring'."


              JKR is simply stoking the star-making machinery--as if she needs to.

              Mike

              David Bratman wrote:

              >I think what has been proven here, and which my previous post was intended
              >to say - if not, perhaps, as clearly as it should have - is that something
              >supposedly being on "every major news outlet" is a completely inadequate
              >device for determining whether announcing it will be a spoiler. It was
              >not, in fact, on "every major news outlet", though it may have been on a
              >lot, and it wasn't in big flashing headlines, so it was easily missed.
              >This was not exactly a news story on the level of, say, September 11th.
              >
              >Perhaps people will note this inadequacy in the future, or perhaps they
              >will sit secure in the confidence that what they see, everybody sees. The
              >Fellowship would never have snuck the Ring past Sauron if they thought he
              >grasped everything that they did.
              >
              >Furthermore, there's a huge yawning difference between being _unsurprised_
              >that Rowling is considering killing Harry off, and reading that she
              >actually _said_ she was considering it.
              >
              >DB
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • AMV Howard
              My money is on Snape, simply because I can t believe that the wheel-of-alignment is going to come to a full stop on evil, (indeed, much like the quality of
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                My money is on Snape, simply because I can't believe that the
                wheel-of-alignment is going to come to a full stop on "evil," (indeed, much
                like the quality of Matrix 2 was entirely dependent on how the plot threads
                got picked up and resolved in Matrix 3, my entire view of the series is
                likely to be coloured by how she handles this issue) and yet I can't see her
                letting him be redeemed and also live. And I'll be happy to hand you my $1
                Saturday morning.

                Incidentally, does anyone care to make plans for an early breakfast in
                Toronto? I'll (*blush*) probably only be at the conference Saturday, due to
                some family issues that have arisen, but I'd still like to meet up with
                folks!

                Alana

                On 6/29/06, Mike Foster <mafoster@...> wrote:
                >
                > The Sportin' Life in me begins to think we should maybe start a little
                > pool up on this. $1 an entry, write down your two guesses, one entry
                > per contestant. Winner[s] take[s] all in 2007. Far Westfarthing smial
                > is already up and at this. A member wrote of her daughter, an HP devotee:
                >
                > "Amber says
                > that Rowling gives clues every other book. Clues in bk 2 for bk 4,
                > clues in 1 for 3 with the idea that readers tend to forget in between.
                > She says we should look to book 5 OotP for clues to 7. Amber has also
                > said though the last time she made predictions, every one was wrong....
                > And that JKR is the master of the 'Red Herring'."
                >
                > JKR is simply stoking the star-making machinery--as if she needs to.
                >
                > Mike
                >
                > David Bratman wrote:
                >
                > >I think what has been proven here, and which my previous post was
                > intended
                > >to say - if not, perhaps, as clearly as it should have - is that
                > something
                > >supposedly being on "every major news outlet" is a completely inadequate
                > >device for determining whether announcing it will be a spoiler. It was
                > >not, in fact, on "every major news outlet", though it may have been on a
                > >lot, and it wasn't in big flashing headlines, so it was easily missed.
                > >This was not exactly a news story on the level of, say, September 11th.
                > >
                > >Perhaps people will note this inadequacy in the future, or perhaps they
                > >will sit secure in the confidence that what they see, everybody sees. The
                > >Fellowship would never have snuck the Ring past Sauron if they thought he
                > >grasped everything that they did.
                > >
                > >Furthermore, there's a huge yawning difference between being
                > _unsurprised_
                > >that Rowling is considering killing Harry off, and reading that she
                > >actually _said_ she was considering it.
                > >
                > >DB
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >



                --
                Alana Vincent Howard

                770.419.8727


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Oberhelman, D
                Looking at that subject line gave me a flashback to Who Shot J.R.? in 1980 (?). This is the 21st-century literary equivalent! (By the way Mike, I will see
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                  Looking at that subject line gave me a flashback to "Who Shot J.R.?" in
                  1980 (?). This is the 21st-century literary equivalent!



                  (By the way Mike, I will see you bright and early on Saturday for more
                  JRRT and CSL. I leave for Toronto tomorrow.)



                  David





                  ________________________________

                  From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of Mike Foster
                  Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:10 AM
                  To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Who will JKR bump off?



                  The Sportin' Life in me begins to think we should maybe start a little
                  pool up on this. $1 an entry, write down your two guesses, one entry
                  per contestant. Winner[s] take[s] all in 2007. Far Westfarthing smial
                  is already up and at this. A member wrote of her daughter, an HP
                  devotee:

                  "Amber says
                  that Rowling gives clues every other book. Clues in bk 2 for bk 4,
                  clues in 1 for 3 with the idea that readers tend to forget in between.
                  She says we should look to book 5 OotP for clues to 7. Amber has also
                  said though the last time she made predictions, every one was wrong....
                  And that JKR is the master of the 'Red Herring'."

                  JKR is simply stoking the star-making machinery--as if she needs to.

                  Mike

                  David Bratman wrote:

                  >I think what has been proven here, and which my previous post was
                  intended
                  >to say - if not, perhaps, as clearly as it should have - is that
                  something
                  >supposedly being on "every major news outlet" is a completely
                  inadequate
                  >device for determining whether announcing it will be a spoiler. It was
                  >not, in fact, on "every major news outlet", though it may have been on
                  a
                  >lot, and it wasn't in big flashing headlines, so it was easily missed.
                  >This was not exactly a news story on the level of, say, September 11th.
                  >
                  >Perhaps people will note this inadequacy in the future, or perhaps they
                  >will sit secure in the confidence that what they see, everybody sees.
                  The
                  >Fellowship would never have snuck the Ring past Sauron if they thought
                  he
                  >grasped everything that they did.
                  >
                  >Furthermore, there's a huge yawning difference between being
                  _unsurprised_
                  >that Rowling is considering killing Harry off, and reading that she
                  >actually _said_ she was considering it.
                  >
                  >DB
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                  <http://www.mythsoc.org>
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Carl F. Hostetter
                  ... You ve elevated a silent, unconscious, and completely reasonable instinct to the level of a conscious and deliberate determination, which of course it
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Jun 29, 2006, at 9:21 AM, David Bratman wrote:

                    > Perhaps people will note this inadequacy in the future, or perhaps
                    > they will sit secure in the confidence that what they see,
                    > everybody sees.

                    You've elevated a silent, unconscious, and completely reasonable
                    instinct to the level of a conscious and deliberate determination,
                    which of course it wasn't: Pat didn't say to himself, "Gee, even
                    though this is a spoiler, I'm going to post this, since everyone
                    knows it anyways". It never occurred to him that it could conceivably
                    BE a "spoiler", just as it would never have occurred to me to think
                    it was, and still wouldn't if someone hadn't claimed it was. In fact,
                    I STILL don't think it IS a spoiler, and I doubt that Pat does
                    either. AGAIN: Pat had NO REASON to think the news item was a
                    "spoiler", so "sitting secure in confidence" never entered the picture.

                    So what you're in fact asking is that no one trust their own judgment
                    and instinct as to what is or is not a spoiler, but instead to
                    deliberately second-guess every instinct before posting in this
                    forum. I rather expect that what will actually happen is that Pat,
                    having been called on the carpet for doing something he didn't intend
                    and doesn't feel he actually did -- and neither do I -- will simply
                    not bother to post here again, the cost of doing so having been made
                    too great, both in terms of demanded second-guessing of instinct in
                    forethought and in wearisomeness of reaction.

                    > The Fellowship would never have snuck the Ring past Sauron if they
                    > thought he grasped everything that they did.

                    If all the major news sources we have now existed in Middle-earth
                    during the Third Age, and were broadcasting the Fellowship's
                    movements and plans, then they would have been fools to think that
                    Sauron DIDN'T know.

                    Also, I note that you've just given out a MAJOR "spoiler" for _The
                    Lord of the Rings_. You shouldn't ASSUME that everyone here has read
                    the books, just because the story now surrounds us in the mass media
                    and culture, right? And yet I don't see the big flashing "SPOLER
                    WARNING" anywhere in your post....

                    > Furthermore, there's a huge yawning difference between being
                    > _unsurprised_ that Rowling is considering killing Harry off, and
                    > reading that she actually _said_ she was considering it.

                    No, there isn't. There may be a difference, but it is slight and
                    insignificant, in that it doesn't change ANYTHING about what one does
                    or does not expect with regard to the H.P. series; this is hardly
                    "huge" or "yawning".
                  • Mike Foster
                    David, And remember that trick ending...actually, I don t. I leave home at 4:45 a.m. tomorrow, too early to be bright. See you there. Travelling mercies.
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                      David,
                      And remember that trick ending...actually, I don't.

                      I leave home at 4:45 a.m. tomorrow, too early to be bright. See you
                      there. Travelling mercies.

                      Mike

                      Oberhelman, D wrote:

                      >Looking at that subject line gave me a flashback to "Who Shot J.R.?" in
                      >1980 (?). This is the 21st-century literary equivalent!
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >(By the way Mike, I will see you bright and early on Saturday for more
                      >JRRT and CSL. I leave for Toronto tomorrow.)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >David
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >________________________________
                      >
                      >From: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mythsoc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      >Of Mike Foster
                      >Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:10 AM
                      >To: mythsoc@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [mythsoc] Who will JKR bump off?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >The Sportin' Life in me begins to think we should maybe start a little
                      >pool up on this. $1 an entry, write down your two guesses, one entry
                      >per contestant. Winner[s] take[s] all in 2007. Far Westfarthing smial
                      >is already up and at this. A member wrote of her daughter, an HP
                      >devotee:
                      >
                      >"Amber says
                      >that Rowling gives clues every other book. Clues in bk 2 for bk 4,
                      >clues in 1 for 3 with the idea that readers tend to forget in between.
                      >She says we should look to book 5 OotP for clues to 7. Amber has also
                      >said though the last time she made predictions, every one was wrong....
                      >And that JKR is the master of the 'Red Herring'."
                      >
                      >JKR is simply stoking the star-making machinery--as if she needs to.
                      >
                      >Mike
                      >
                      >David Bratman wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>I think what has been proven here, and which my previous post was
                      >>
                      >>
                      >intended
                      >
                      >
                      >>to say - if not, perhaps, as clearly as it should have - is that
                      >>
                      >>
                      >something
                      >
                      >
                      >>supposedly being on "every major news outlet" is a completely
                      >>
                      >>
                      >inadequate
                      >
                      >
                      >>device for determining whether announcing it will be a spoiler. It was
                      >>not, in fact, on "every major news outlet", though it may have been on
                      >>
                      >>
                      >a
                      >
                      >
                      >>lot, and it wasn't in big flashing headlines, so it was easily missed.
                      >>This was not exactly a news story on the level of, say, September 11th.
                      >>
                      >>Perhaps people will note this inadequacy in the future, or perhaps they
                      >>will sit secure in the confidence that what they see, everybody sees.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >The
                      >
                      >
                      >>Fellowship would never have snuck the Ring past Sauron if they thought
                      >>
                      >>
                      >he
                      >
                      >
                      >>grasped everything that they did.
                      >>
                      >>Furthermore, there's a huge yawning difference between being
                      >>
                      >>
                      >_unsurprised_
                      >
                      >
                      >>that Rowling is considering killing Harry off, and reading that she
                      >>actually _said_ she was considering it.
                      >>
                      >>DB
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                      >>
                      >>
                      ><http://www.mythsoc.org>
                      >
                      >
                      >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Edith.Crowe@sjsu.edu
                      Speaking not as a Steward but as someone who s getting tired if this thread, could we get back to discussing books, or the Inklings, or all that stuff? Edith
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                        Speaking not as a Steward but as someone who's getting tired if this
                        thread, could we get back to discussing books, or the Inklings, or all
                        that stuff?

                        Edith L. Crowe | (408) 808-2037 | edith.crowe@...
                        Art & Humanities Librarian & Coordinator of Graduate Instruction
                        San Jose State University Library (http://www.sjlibrary.org)

                        Corresponding Secretary of the Mythopoeic Society (http://www.mythsoc.org)

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • visualweasel
                        ... CNN = Crebain News Network? ;-)
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          > If all the major news sources we have now existed in
                          > Middle-earth during the Third Age, and were broadcasting
                          > the Fellowship's movements and plans, then they would
                          > have been fools to think that Sauron DIDN'T know.

                          CNN = Crebain News Network? ;-)
                        • Walkermonk@aol.com
                          I second that emotion! Grace Walker Monk In a message dated 6/29/2006 12:32:00 PM Central Standard Time, Edith.Crowe@sjsu.edu writes: Speaking not as a Steward
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I second that emotion!

                            Grace Walker Monk

                            In a message dated 6/29/2006 12:32:00 PM Central Standard Time,
                            Edith.Crowe@... writes:
                            Speaking not as a Steward but as someone who's getting tired if this
                            thread, could we get back to discussing books, or the Inklings, or all
                            that stuff?


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Mike Foster
                            Had JRRT experienced the same dazzling success in 1954 as JKR, and he told the media that at least five major characters would face death in the third volume,
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Had JRRT experienced the same dazzling success in 1954 as JKR, and he
                              told the media that at least five major characters would face death in
                              the third volume, ooh la la.

                              Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

                              >On Jun 29, 2006, at 9:21 AM, David Bratman wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >>Perhaps people will note this inadequacy in the future, or perhaps
                              >>they will sit secure in the confidence that what they see,
                              >>everybody sees.
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >You've elevated a silent, unconscious, and completely reasonable
                              >instinct to the level of a conscious and deliberate determination,
                              >which of course it wasn't: Pat didn't say to himself, "Gee, even
                              >though this is a spoiler, I'm going to post this, since everyone
                              >knows it anyways". It never occurred to him that it could conceivably
                              >BE a "spoiler", just as it would never have occurred to me to think
                              >it was, and still wouldn't if someone hadn't claimed it was. In fact,
                              >I STILL don't think it IS a spoiler, and I doubt that Pat does
                              >either. AGAIN: Pat had NO REASON to think the news item was a
                              >"spoiler", so "sitting secure in confidence" never entered the picture.
                              >
                              >So what you're in fact asking is that no one trust their own judgment
                              >and instinct as to what is or is not a spoiler, but instead to
                              >deliberately second-guess every instinct before posting in this
                              >forum. I rather expect that what will actually happen is that Pat,
                              >having been called on the carpet for doing something he didn't intend
                              >and doesn't feel he actually did -- and neither do I -- will simply
                              >not bother to post here again, the cost of doing so having been made
                              >too great, both in terms of demanded second-guessing of instinct in
                              >forethought and in wearisomeness of reaction.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >>The Fellowship would never have snuck the Ring past Sauron if they
                              >>thought he grasped everything that they did.
                              >>
                              >>
                              >If all the major news sources we have now existed in Middle-earth
                              >during the Third Age, and were broadcasting the Fellowship's
                              >movements and plans, then they would have been fools to think that
                              >Sauron DIDN'T know.
                              >
                              >Also, I note that you've just given out a MAJOR "spoiler" for _The
                              >Lord of the Rings_. You shouldn't ASSUME that everyone here has read
                              >the books, just because the story now surrounds us in the mass media
                              >and culture, right? And yet I don't see the big flashing "SPOLER
                              >WARNING" anywhere in your post....
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >>Furthermore, there's a huge yawning difference between being
                              >>_unsurprised_ that Rowling is considering killing Harry off, and
                              >>reading that she actually _said_ she was considering it.
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >No, there isn't. There may be a difference, but it is slight and
                              >insignificant, in that it doesn't change ANYTHING about what one does
                              >or does not expect with regard to the H.P. series; this is hardly
                              >"huge" or "yawning".
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >The Mythopoeic Society website http://www.mythsoc.org
                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Walter Padgett
                              What s Crebain? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                What's Crebain?

                                On 6/29/06, visualweasel <visualweasel@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > > If all the major news sources we have now existed in
                                > > Middle-earth during the Third Age, and were broadcasting
                                > > the Fellowship's movements and plans, then they would
                                > > have been fools to think that Sauron DIDN'T know.
                                >
                                > CNN = Crebain News Network? ;-)
                                >
                                >
                                >


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                              • Linda DeMars
                                If you have the opportunity, try to take in Jef Murray s workshop. He talks about Tolkien s handling of a universal longing for home as illustrated in his
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                  If you have the opportunity, try to take in Jef Murray's workshop. He
                                  talks about Tolkien's handling of a universal longing for home as
                                  illustrated in his beautiful paintings. I had the privilege to hear
                                  a "trial run" of Jef's presentation a few weeks ago.

                                  Linda D.
                                • Carl F. Hostetter
                                  ... Indeed. And if he had, the fault for the spoiler (if it is to be regarded as such) would have lay with him, not with whoever subsequently commented on
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                    On Jun 29, 2006, at 2:18 PM, Mike Foster wrote:

                                    > Had JRRT experienced the same dazzling success in 1954 as JKR, and he
                                    > told the media that at least five major characters would face death in
                                    > the third volume, ooh la la.
                                    Indeed. And if he had, the "fault" for the "spoiler" (if it is to be
                                    regarded as such) would have lay with him, not with whoever
                                    subsequently commented on what he said to media.
                                  • John D Rateliff
                                    Crebain are the evil crows that spy upon the Fellowship as they make their way through Eregion. Cf. The Ring Goes South (LotR Bk II Chapter III).
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                      "Crebain" are the evil crows that spy upon the Fellowship as they
                                      make their way through Eregion. Cf. "The Ring Goes South" (LotR Bk II
                                      Chapter III).


                                      On Jun 29, 2006, at 12:04 PM, Walter Padgett wrote:

                                      > What's Crebain?
                                    • David Bratman
                                      ... I suggest you look in the mirror when you say that. Such a claim is only in your imagination. I am offering not castigations, but guidance for the future.
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                        At 10:35 AM 6/29/2006 -0400, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

                                        >You've elevated a silent, unconscious, and completely reasonable
                                        >instinct to the level of a conscious and deliberate determination,

                                        I suggest you look in the mirror when you say that. Such a claim is only
                                        in your imagination.

                                        I am offering not castigations, but guidance for the future. If people
                                        didn't know before now that what appears on the home page of USA Today is
                                        not automatically known to the entire world the same morning, well then,
                                        they know it now. Perhaps they will take this into consideration. Or,
                                        perhaps, they will prefer to write indignant posts full of words in
                                        all-caps. Their choice.

                                        My wife informs me that the news appeared in the gossip column of our local
                                        paper. Which I skim over if I read it at all, as I have no interest in the
                                        doings of overhyped movie stars like Brad and Janet (or whatever their
                                        names are) who are the normal fare of gossip columns.

                                        It would certainly be ironic if being au courant with the morning's gossip
                                        columns were expected of members of a society founded to honor two men
                                        whose unworldliness was such that one of them had never heard of Ava
                                        Gardner even when personally introduced to her, and the other thought Tito
                                        was the King of Greece.

                                        Your other arguments are too absurd to be worth replying to.

                                        DB
                                      • David Bratman
                                        ... No, don t _tell_ him! Um, Crebain are the evil biscuits from the Lonely Mountain that the Fellowship ate on their journey, and that caused Boromir to go
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                          At 03:29 PM 6/29/2006 -0700, John D Rateliff wrote:

                                          >"Crebain" are the evil crows that spy upon the Fellowship as they
                                          >make their way through Eregion. Cf. "The Ring Goes South" (LotR Bk II
                                          >Chapter III).

                                          No, don't _tell_ him!

                                          Um, "Crebain" are the evil biscuits from the Lonely Mountain that the
                                          Fellowship ate on their journey, and that caused Boromir to go all wormy
                                          and Ring-lusty.

                                          DB
                                        • Walkermonk@aol.com
                                          Wow. The same man who wrote, Your other arguments are too absurd to be worth replying to. also wrote, Perhaps people will note this inadequacy in the
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                            Wow.

                                            The same man who wrote, "Your other arguments are too absurd to be worth
                                            replying to." also wrote, "Perhaps people will note this inadequacy in the
                                            future, or perhaps they
                                            will sit secure in the confidence that what they see, everybody sees. The
                                            Fellowship would never have snuck the Ring past Sauron if they thought he
                                            grasped everything that they did."

                                            Somehow posting a note about a well-publicized interview on a book not yet
                                            finished is become worth comparing to the struggles of the Fellowship of the
                                            Ring. Ouucchhh. My brain just will not go into that shape!


                                            I haven't giggled this much while reading email in, well, weeks. Thanks for
                                            the fun!

                                            Grace Walker Monk






                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • David Bratman
                                            ... If the implication is that I expected that the absurdity of the arguments should be self-evident, that is mistaken. The statement was only to say that I
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                              At 11:30 PM 6/29/2006 -0400, Walkermonk@... wrote:

                                              >The same man who wrote, "Your other arguments are too absurd to be worth
                                              >replying to." also wrote, "Perhaps people will note this inadequacy in the
                                              >future, or perhaps they
                                              >will sit secure in the confidence that what they see, everybody sees. The
                                              >Fellowship would never have snuck the Ring past Sauron if they thought he
                                              >grasped everything that they did."

                                              If the implication is that I expected that the absurdity of the arguments
                                              should be self-evident, that is mistaken. The statement was only to say
                                              that I acknowledged reading the arguments, but found them not worth
                                              replying to.


                                              >Somehow posting a note about a well-publicized interview on a book not yet
                                              >finished is become worth comparing to the struggles of the Fellowship of the
                                              >Ring. Ouucchhh. My brain just will not go into that shape!

                                              In the Mythopoeic Society that I belong to, people make comparisons to
                                              events in The Lord of the Rings all the time. Ask Mike Foster, for
                                              instance, who wrote a quite sober scholarly paper comparing the Hobbits to
                                              the Beatles.


                                              >I haven't giggled this much while reading email in, well, weeks. Thanks for
                                              >the fun!

                                              You are more easily amused than I thought.

                                              DB
                                            • Carl F. Hostetter
                                              ... I suggest that while you are urging others to look in a mirror, you look up the definition of straw man . NO ONE has suggested anything like this about
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                                On Jun 29, 2006, at 10:59 PM, David Bratman wrote:
                                                > If people didn't know before now that what appears on the home page
                                                > of USA Today is not automatically known to the entire world the
                                                > same morning, well then, they know it now.
                                                I suggest that while you are urging others to look in a mirror, you
                                                look up the definition of "straw man". NO ONE has suggested anything
                                                like this about "USA Today" or any other single news outlet. You
                                                might find things less _absurdam_ if you didn't employ such straw-man
                                                _reductio_.

                                                I expect that USA Today carried news of the Sept. 11 attacks: does
                                                that mean that no one can be expected to have learned of it? Yet,
                                                alas, this is precisely the force of your "argument" here. The fact
                                                is, Pat referred to the story being mentioned in a WIDE VARIETY of
                                                major news sources, as shown by a simple Google search, (only) ONE of
                                                which happened to be USA Today. YOU now prefer to act as though that
                                                is the only one Pat mentioned.
                                                > It would certainly be ironic if being au courant with the morning's
                                                > gossip columns were expected of members
                                                Again, you cut quite a figure of straw. No one has suggested any such
                                                absurd notion; nor was the news of Rowling's statements confined
                                                either to the gossip columns or to USA Today, as you would have it.

                                                Condescend much?
                                              • David Bratman
                                                ... Actually, I think someone did. See below. ... No it is not. Here we see Carl F. Hostetter completely failing to grasp the difference between [see my
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jun 29, 2006
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                                                  At 12:38 AM 6/30/2006 -0400, Carl F. Hostetter wrote:

                                                  >On Jun 29, 2006, at 10:59 PM, David Bratman wrote:
                                                  >> If people didn't know before now that what appears on the home page
                                                  >> of USA Today is not automatically known to the entire world the
                                                  >> same morning, well then, they know it now.
                                                  >I suggest that while you are urging others to look in a mirror, you
                                                  >look up the definition of "straw man". NO ONE has suggested anything
                                                  >like this about "USA Today" or any other single news outlet.

                                                  Actually, I think someone did. See below.

                                                  >I expect that USA Today carried news of the Sept. 11 attacks: does
                                                  >that mean that no one can be expected to have learned of it? Yet,
                                                  >alas, this is precisely the force of your "argument" here.

                                                  No it is not. Here we see Carl F. Hostetter completely failing to grasp
                                                  the difference between [see my quote above] "not automatically known" and
                                                  "automatically not known," the latter of which being what I'd have to have
                                                  written for his argument to have any validity. But I didn't. Some linguist.

                                                  We also have, perhaps with better excuse, his failing to remember that in
                                                  an earlier post I drew the precise distinction he's insisting on here. I
                                                  wrote: "it wasn't in big flashing headlines, so it was easily missed. This
                                                  was not exactly a news story on the level of, say, September 11th." You
                                                  couldn't read a newspaper the next day and fail to notice that one. You
                                                  could read one and fail to notice J.K. Rowling. There's a difference.

                                                  Also: if I understand the timing correctly, Pat posted on the same day that
                                                  he read the Rowling news. I'm not sure how early on that day, but by
                                                  comparison there were actually people in the world, not out in a desert or
                                                  on top of a mountain, who didn't hear about the September 11th attacks
                                                  until much later in the day. They might even have first heard about the
                                                  attacks by reading someone's e-mail. I heard about them in a telephone
                                                  call, not from a media news source at all. Only after the call, and
                                                  because of it, did I turn on the radio.


                                                  >The fact
                                                  >is, Pat referred to the story being mentioned in a WIDE VARIETY of
                                                  >major news sources, as shown by a simple Google search, (only) ONE of
                                                  >which happened to be USA Today.

                                                  Having deleted the old posts, I may be misremembering. But I recall Pat
                                                  saying that the home page of USA Today is where _he_ read about the Rowling
                                                  thing.

                                                  If he conducted that Google search of his before sending his first post on
                                                  the subject to the list, then I apologize. But I got the impression, when
                                                  he wrote of his search, that he had conducted it _after_ the complaint was
                                                  made, and did so for the purpose of defending his claim that the news was
                                                  wide-spread.

                                                  If these suppositions are correct, then it was the appearance of the news
                                                  in USA Today, and not the results of the Google search, that led Pat to
                                                  assume the news would be no spoiler. That is why I referred to USA Today.

                                                  In any case, if you see a news item on USA Today, you don't need a Google
                                                  search to reasonably conclude that it will be widespread elsewhere. All
                                                  the Google search provided was concrete evidence of that conclusion. It is
                                                  not wrong to make that conclusion, Google search or no Google search. But
                                                  that still makes it no less incorrect to conclude that everybody in your
                                                  readership will therefore have heard the news in the same day. That is the
                                                  point, and the whole point.


                                                  >> It would certainly be ironic if being au courant with the morning's
                                                  >> gossip columns were expected of members
                                                  >Again, you cut quite a figure of straw. No one has suggested any such
                                                  >absurd notion; nor was the news of Rowling's statements confined
                                                  >either to the gossip columns or to USA Today, as you would have it.

                                                  Again, no. Because the gossip column of my local paper is the place where
                                                  _I_ would have read about it, if I'd read about it at all. And I am one of
                                                  those who is being told that I should not have missed this story. Which
                                                  requires me to have read the gossip column, since I didn't see the thing on
                                                  any web searching I did that day either.

                                                  Even if you disallow that, the general point is still relevant. The men
                                                  who did not know Ava Gardner or Tito were not the type to be checking daily
                                                  newspapers every morning for the hot feature news items. And this is a
                                                  feature story. It's not September 11th. You seem to have trouble grasping
                                                  the difference.

                                                  DB
                                                • Carl F. Hostetter
                                                  ... I stumbled across at least three stories about Rowling s spoilers yesterday on my personal Yahoo! page (AP and Reuters) and USA Today homepage . THREE.
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Jun 30, 2006
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                                                    On Jun 30, 2006, at 2:44 AM, David Bratman wrote:

                                                    > Having deleted the old posts, I may be misremembering. But I recall
                                                    > Pat saying that the home page of USA Today is where _he_ read about
                                                    > the Rowling thing.

                                                    "I stumbled across at least three stories about Rowling's "spoilers"
                                                    yesterday on my personal Yahoo! page (AP and Reuters) and USA Today
                                                    homepage".

                                                    THREE. Including AP and Reuters.

                                                    > Again, no. Because the gossip column of my local paper is the place
                                                    > where _I_ would have read about it, if I'd read about it at all.
                                                    > And I am one of those who is being told that I should not have
                                                    > missed this story. Which requires me to have read the gossip
                                                    > column, since I didn't see the thing on any web searching I did
                                                    > that day either.

                                                    So is everyone now required to poll YOU before we decide to comment
                                                    upon a news item or any other piece of information?

                                                    I'd ask YOU to spend some time in front of the mirror today
                                                    reflecting on the fact that you've gone out of your way to publicly
                                                    insult at least three people on this list, at least two of whom count
                                                    you as a friend, all in order to establish that, despite it being
                                                    reported in all the major news outlets, YOU didn't read or hear a
                                                    news item concerning a wildly popular series of books, and that
                                                    therefore it was wrong for Pat to trust his instinct that most people
                                                    HAD already heard the news item, again despite it having appeared in
                                                    at least three major news outlets; all because Pat posted a
                                                    lighthearted comment concerning a POSSIBLE development in a series of
                                                    books that you've already stated you don't care about.
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